Bone Broth And Gelatin

narouz

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I've puzzled over this statement about what Peat eats concerning gelatin and bone broth:

"- he eats meat with gelatin. The gelatin can be either from regular
powder or from broth cooked no more than 3 hours (otherwise you
degrade the nutrients he says)."

posted by three3_six6_nine9

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AV ... ssage/5523

For a while now I've just assumed there was a breakdown in communication, and that the people who are relaying the information must've got the details slightly wrong, because it's hard for me to conceive of making a good, effective bone broth while cooking it only 3 hours max.
Have you ever tried that?
It doesn't seem like the components beyond the meat and fat have had a chance to break down--and isn't that the whole point of bone broth?
The Weston-Price folks, what is their rule of thumb...? Isn't it at least 8 hours?

I'm wondering if the reporting may be in error.
Now, I can picture Peat wanting to stop the cooking at 3 hours to remove the meat.
Maybe Peat does that, then cooks the bones longer.../ :roll:
 

Jake

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I agree with your assessment. I have never been able to get the bone broth to gel unless its cooked for ~ 10 hour. It tastes horrible it doesn't set up after refridgeration. Peat may be talking about ox tails in this case. I have cooked those a few times and the gelatin was particulary thick, so ox tails on their own may create a good broth in 3 hours, not sure. If I recall correctly, WAP recommends cooking for anywhere between 12 and 72 hours.
 

narouz

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Jake said:
I agree with your assessment. I have never been able to get the bone broth to gel unless its cooked for ~ 10 hour. It tastes horrible it doesn't set up after refridgeration. Peat may be talking about ox tails in this case. I have cooked those a few times and the gelatin was particulary thick, so ox tails on their own may create a good broth in 3 hours, not sure. If I recall correctly, WAP recommends cooking for anywhere between 12 and 72 hours.

Thank you, Jake!
I was starting to think I hallucinating,
the only one wrestling with this! :)

I have to think that Peat is talking about
not cooking the meat more than 3 hours.
 

charlie

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Paul over at PHD says you can cook it till all the bone is gone! :eek I guess the water starts turning white after cooking it a few days. Might be a good way for me to get my calcium since I cannot drink milk.
 

narouz

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I made, I think, a big breakthrough in the bone broth department here recently.

Heretofore I've gotten bones from the healthfood stores near me,
top quality organic bones.
But the gelatin quotient was disappointing.
Despite cooking for many hours,
like 8-12 or even 24,
the broth would seldom set,
and wasn't wonderful tasting either--let's put it that way.
And those bone were pretty pricey, too.
Usually they were "marrow bones" of cows,
the big bones with a lot of marrow.

Well, I recently paid a visit to a local, big Asian market.
I found these bizarro things:
Cow Feet
and
Chicken Feet.
Both very cheap,
and both reputed to be terrific sources of gelatin
and traditionally used in Asian stocks.

Man...just like ARK posted,
I can simmer those bones/feet for like 8 hours,
pour off the liquid (and I do add some celery, carrot, onion for flavor),
refrigerate,
skim off the fat...
super gelatinous and tastes great!

Then I pour more water over the bones/feet
and simmer for like another 8 hours:
same thing!
As ARK says, you can keep going with the same bones for a LOT of batches.

The chicken feet floating visibly through my Corning VisionWare
produces the additional bonus of freaking out visitors:
they look sortuv disconcertingly humanish
and evoke a strange Peatian Gothic Horror Story vibe... :)
 

charlie

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Narouz, most excellent. I think I might have a good source on free cows feet. Yay!

Your writing style and awesome information kicks butt, I always look forward to your posts.

Floating chicken feet for the win! :lol:
 

Ray-Z

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narouz said:
Well, I recently paid a visit to a local, big Asian market.
I found these bizarro things:
Cow Feet
and
Chicken Feet.
Both very cheap,
and both reputed to be terrific sources of gelatin
and traditionally used in Asian stocks.

Man...just like ARK posted,
I can simmer those bones/feet for like 8 hours,
pour off the liquid (and I do add some celery, carrot, onion for flavor),
refrigerate,
skim off the fat...
super gelatinous and tastes great!

Narouz: Does skimming off the fat from the broth avoid potential problems with using PUFA-licious chicken? Or are chicken feet not particularly high in PUFA anyway? (My only encounters with chicken feet have occurred at dim sum restaurants.)
 

narouz

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...and to return to the starting point for this thread:
obviously I've decided that Dr. Peat,
for all of his genius,
may've been out to lunch slightly
when it comes to making bone broth.
As ARK replied to me when I expressed this same doubt:
"Yeah...I don't think Ray has been making a lot of broth lately." :)

(In case some aren't following,
Peat seems to say that bone broth should be cooked
no more than 3 hours
lest the protein be degraded.
I think maybe he means the meat portion of the meat-thing you're cooking,
like oxtail.
I've tried to get some clarification on this, but haven't found any.
So I've decided it is most likely a case of miscommunication
or perhaps Dr. Peat doesn't do a lot of cooking himself.

A guy doesn't have to be infallible to be a genius, in my book.
It's like with the Red Light Bulb confusion,
where Peat's recommended bulb would not seem to produce
the very wavelengths he deems desirable: 600-820nm.
I think even with great people and geniuses there will glitches.
He's human.
 

narouz

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Ray-Z said:
narouz said:
Well, I recently paid a visit to a local, big Asian market.
I found these bizarro things:
Cow Feet
and
Chicken Feet.
Both very cheap,
and both reputed to be terrific sources of gelatin
and traditionally used in Asian stocks.

Man...just like ARK posted,
I can simmer those bones/feet for like 8 hours,
pour off the liquid (and I do add some celery, carrot, onion for flavor),
refrigerate,
skim off the fat...
super gelatinous and tastes great!

Narouz: Does skimming off the fat from the broth avoid potential problems with using PUFA-licious chicken? Or are chicken feet not particularly high in PUFA anyway? (My only encounters with chicken feet have occurred at dim sum restaurants.)

An excellent question, Ray-Z,
and one that still nags at me a bit, I confess.

Here's the thing:
Usually, when you make stock, depending upon the fat content of what you're using,
after refrigeration
there will be a clear and, in my experience, often pretty voluminous
amount of fat separated at the top,
which can be easily skimmed.

Now, with the chicken feet:
looking at them (so strange!), I'd kinda thought they'd have a lot of fat.
So I was looking for a lot of fat separated at the top after refrigeration.
But, surprising, not that much.
More like a layer of bits of chicken foot skin
(and, by the way, the feet are Big and have Big Sharp ToeNails!).
Well, yes, some other stuff that appeared fat-like.

So I was just extra careful and took the whole first inch off the top
of the 1 gallon jar of broth.
Maybe the feet aren't very fat after all...?
Maybe that stuff you can see in cross-section where the feet are cut off
is more like cartilage and tendon--
in other words, the stuff Gelatin is made of...?

I am very concerned to avoid PUFA, Ray-Z.
I have to think the fat would separate as it always has in refrigerated broths,
wouldn't you?

I figure I'll have the chicken stock like 1/3 of the time or so,
and rely more upon the Cow Feet stock.
But boy...that chicken stock is great as a base.
I add a small amount of cilantro and green onion,
I've already added garlic during the cooking,
and I also add salt and pepper (I know, Peat doesn't like).
I even am considering adding like one drop of toasted sesame oil.
What's so cool about it is that it gives me something I miss a lot on this Peat diet--
the more exotic, less plain domain of tastes.
Most Peat food is so bland.
Peat has said that one way to stimulate the liver
is by eating "tasty foods."
Well...this is a tasty food.
Oh yeah: and very sinfully I sometimes add like an 1/8 lb of high-quality, skinless chicken breast.
Full confessional mode now. :lol:

Another thing I do that tastes great with the chicken (foot) stock:
Egg Drop Soup!
Easy and great!

With the Cow Foot stock I make:
French Onion Soup.
Minus the bread.
With the cheese.
Yes, and with the well-cooked onion.
What the hell...live a little. :eek:
 

narouz

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Here is a link and quote on the subject of possible fat amount in chicken feet:

http://www.home-ec101.com/chicken-feet-for-stock-kitchen-bravery/

"It’s important to use a very fine sieve or several layers of cheesecloth as this helps get rid of most of the fat. There really isn’t a whole lot. Have you ever seen a chicken with fat feet? Exactly. Pour your stock into a bowl that has a lid or several jars. They need to cool some before being placed in the refrigerator. I placed my jars in a large pan of cool (not cold) water for 10 minutes before placing them in the fridge."

The author echoes my surprise upon not finding much fat.
She uses a fine cheesecloth to filter out the fat...
...I'm not really sure that makes much difference vs. refrigerating and skimming,
but...maybe to be Perfectly PUFA Purified....
 

Ray-Z

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narouz said:
Now, with the chicken feet:
looking at them (so strange!), I'd kinda thought they'd have a lot of fat.
So I was looking for a lot of fat separated at the top after refrigeration.
But, surprising, not that much.
More like a layer of bits of chicken foot skin
(and, by the way, the feet are Big and have Big Sharp ToeNails!).
Well, yes, some other stuff that appeared fat-like.

So I was just extra careful and took the whole first inch off the top
of the 1 gallon jar of broth.
Maybe the feet aren't very fat after all...?
Maybe that stuff you can see in cross-section where the feet are cut off
is more like cartilage and tendon--
in other words, the stuff Gelatin is made of...?

I am very concerned to avoid PUFA, Ray-Z.
I have to think the fat would separate as it always has in refrigerated broths,
wouldn't you?

I figure I'll have the chicken stock like 1/3 of the time or so,
and rely more upon the Cow Feet stock.
But boy...that chicken stock is great as a base.
I add a small amount of cilantro and green onion,
I've already added garlic during the cooking,
and I also add salt and pepper (I know, Peat doesn't like).
I even am considering adding like one drop of toasted sesame oil.
What's so cool about it is that it gives me something I miss a lot on this Peat diet--
the more exotic, less plain domain of tastes.
Most Peat food is so bland.
Peat has said that one way to stimulate the liver
is by eating "tasty foods."
Well...this is a tasty food.
Oh yeah: and very sinfully I sometimes add like an 1/8 lb of high-quality, skinless chicken breast.
Full confessional mode now. :lol:

Another thing I do that tastes great with the chicken (foot) stock:
Egg Drop Soup!
Easy and great!

With the Cow Foot stock I make:
French Onion Soup.
Minus the bread.
With the cheese.
Yes, and with the well-cooked onion.
What the hell...live a little. :eek:

So, Narouz, you have confessed your crimes against Peatdom. The Peatish Inquisition will deal with you shortly. [Evil laughter.] Beat him with the raw carrot! Flog him with the oxtail! :twisted:

Seriously, though, your soup ideas sound tasty to me, and I don't have any scientific reason to think that your methods will fail to separate the fat from the rest of the broth. I'm just...paranoid.... :shock:
 

narouz

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Ha.
Yeah, and I think I failed to mention
that Peat himself, when asked about gelatin sources,
said Chicken Feet.
Seems like if they were truly Evil (read PUFA)
he wouldn't have said that,
or would've maybe qualified it...
 

charlie

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Narouz, about the beef feet. Is it only the actual hoof? I am going to ask my friend who has cows if he will hook me up with the feet. I just want to make sure I ask for the right thing though.
 

narouz

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Charlie said:
Narouz, about the beef feet. Is it only the actual hoof? I am going to ask my friend who has cows if he will hook me up with the feet. I just want to make sure I ask for the right thing though.

You know, that's a good question, Charlie.
The ones I buy at the Asian market are sortuv hard to identified sawed up frozen chunks.
But when you look at them, they don't really look like hooves.
An I think I read somewhere that the "beef feet" or "cow feet" name
is something of a misnomer--
that they are really more like "ankles"
(if cows had ankles, which a guess they do not).
So I'm thinking that "beef feet" actually refers to the area of the cow just above the hoof. :geek: :?:
 

charlie

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narouz, I did a search after your post to find out more info and found this video. Good info! She says she can get gelatin out of the beef feet for 2 weeks!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGUCSaud1kI[/youtube]
 

Nick810

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Oxtail is great.... but I get a stuffy nose after eating which usually means I'm not reacting well to it.
Maybe it's the green leaves I put it in... (even though I cook it for 24h)
 

narouz

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Charlie said:
narouz, I did a search after your post to find out more info and found this video. Good info! She says she can get gelatin out of the beef feet for 2 weeks!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGUCSaud1kI[/youtube]

Wow. That's a lot of broth!
And she says the Beef Feet
(at my Asian market they are labeled Cow Feet)
are, actually, just above the hoof,
as I speculated.
 

Ray-Z

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Charlie:

You mentioned that bone broth gives you heartburn. Oddly enough, I've had the same experience after my last two dinners -- and I rarely get heartburn. Coconut oil and salt seemed to make the heartburn go away last night.
 

charlie

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Nothing seems to make mine go away other then making sure I dont drink broth. :(
 

narouz

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...gettin' back to the Chicken Feet Broth...

This has become my favorite, even over the Beef Feet.
Reason: just taste.
Well: and I have that iron problem,
which I'd have to think might tilt me toward chicken feet broth...?

But man: it makes a great, cheap broth.
They cost around $2 lb.
I make a gallon of broth from about a pound.
It is very gelatinous:
I mean it sets up and gets like Jell-O.
Tastes so much better to me than the beef feet broth.
Maybe my instinct is steering me from iron...?
I cook mine about 8 to 12 hours.
The second cooking with new water didn't seem to make a densely gelatinous broth.

Here's the thing:
they really do not have much fat at all.
Just a tiny bit.
Let it set in the frig for a while and you can skim it right off.

I add some celery, carrot, and onion, then strain out, for taste.
And a lot of salt.
Makes a great egg drop
or a Peatian version of Pho.
I do add a little bit of cilantro and spring onions.
I know it's wrong. :cry:
 

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