Bodyfat And Testosterone

[James IV]

When you talk about 24 fasts, is that a complete 0 calories fast, drinking water only? Salted water?

Are you concerned about low blood sugar episodes during the fast or is that just expected?

Yes. No food or drink besides water.

Lower blood sugar makes me feel good. When my fasting glucose is 90, I feel cruddy all the time. When it is 70 I feel great. I personally don't think most people ever experience truly low blood sugar. They experience falling blood sugar. Most of the people I have worked with that have to eat constantly to feel good and energetic, have high blood sugar, not low.

If you do reach a point of truly low blood sugar, then you have likely fasted too long, or your liver is potentially damaged.

 

[Tarmander]

Lowering bodyfat wil definitely decrease estrogen. There is a lot stored in there. Sometimes you will just cry for no reason during long fasts. True story.

Fasting works best in spurts as stated. The body responds MUCH better to acute stress rather than chronic stress. Traditional caloric restriction (i.e. dieting for months on end) is probably the worst way to lose weight.

The more fat you have to lose, the longer you can make fasting intervals. If you only have a few vanity pounds, one 24 hour fast a week should slowly bring the fat off. If you have a significant amount of fat, you could do 48 hours once a week. I would not do more than 48 hours weekly. If you have the ability to be inactive, then you could do long fasts 3+ days. But I would not fast more than 10 days a month unless you have been eating a very good diet for a long time. Detox symptoms are real, and the more junk you have stored, the harder they work your system.

Remeber to eat normally on non fasting days, and even overeat sometimes. The key is acute periods of stress. If you try to cut calories on your feeding days, you will not shut down stress hormones enough to be ready for your next fasting day. This wil obviously result in chronic stress, rather than acute.

I think this is bad advice. I fasted every Friday for around 6 months and I seemed to just get larger and larger. Now, I was also consuming PuFA and exercising on my fasted days, so it's not so cut and dry. I was in high stress mode and didn't know ray peat. But I am skeptical anyone who is unhealthy could pull this off.

 

[James IV]

I think this is bad advice. I fasted every Friday for around 6 months and I seemed to just get larger and larger. Now, I was also consuming PuFA and exercising on my fasted days, so it's not so cut and dry. I was in high stress mode and didn't know ray peat. But I am skeptical anyone who is unhealthy could pull this off.

The OP asked about reducing bodyfat.
To reduce bodyfat you HAVE to create an energy deficit. I suggested that fasting is the "best" way to create that deficit because it allows the stress of deficit to be acute, rather than chronic. I was very clear that fasting is stressful. If you are fasting and exercising, have high stress and have a poor diet, then yes, it's a bad idea.
That doesn't make fasting, nor my advice on fasting bad. That make your decision to try and lower bodyfat when you are already in an over stressed state, bad.

 

[GoodOlMiak]

Find a fun way to be active and follow some of the nutrition advice on the forum.

I can give you my anecdotal experience and I hope it can help you...

I was, at 23 years old, 210 lbs. at 5'9". I was lifting weights but heavy around the mid section. I started to get chubby at around for 12 years old and hadn't been able to revert back to my 7 year old, thin and energetic self.

I joined a martial arts club, forgot the weights and fasted after 6pm every night. I lost 50 lbs. in 4 months but I would have considered myself an easy weight gainer. Man boobs, love handles, all that jazz.

I became vegan, vegetarian and fruitarian. I've tried intermittent fasting and the Bulletproof diet and the 5-2 diet. They were all a fight against weight gain.

I started to listen to my body, tried Ray Peat inspired eating and I can say that I'm slim and well built with a quarter of the effort I used when I was 23. Coconut oil, a daily carrot, avoiding PUFA, drinking milk and honey and salt, organic beef liver, Brazil nuts, good eggs and gelatin have restored a lot of what I had thought was bad genes. Haven't restored my hair though. Just saying.

 

[Tarmander]

The OP asked about reducing bodyfat.
To reduce bodyfat you HAVE to create an energy deficit. I suggested that fasting is the "best" way to create that deficit because it allows the stress of deficit to be acute, rather than chronic. I was very clear that fasting is stressful. If you are fasting and exercising, have high stress and have a poor diet, then yes, it's a bad idea.
That doesn't make fasting, nor my advice on fasting bad. That make your decision to try and lower bodyfat when you are already in an over stressed state, bad.

I am skeptical it can be pulled off well at all, even following anti stress guidelines. It seems like you end up with a catch-22. If you are "youthful" enough, yes it will work, but will stress you and move someone more towards insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction. If you do not have the "youth," the stress will simply make things worse. I think this is actually a better method:

I started to listen to my body, tried Ray Peat inspired eating and I can say that I'm slim and well built with a quarter of the effort I used when I was 23. Coconut oil, a daily carrot, avoiding PUFA, drinking milk and honey and salt, organic beef liver, Brazil nuts, good eggs and gelatin have restored a lot of what I had thought was bad genes. Haven't restored my hair though. Just saying.

I talked to a lady at Sprouts the other day who had lost 15-20 pounds over a year and a half and she did it by just adding coconut oil to her shake and cooking with it. We have talked about weight loss on this forum for years, and it always boils down to this...do you try and lose weight fast and bear the stress, or go slow and have some of the downfalls of being overweight.

 

[DHT]

The best way too loose fat is by high lvl of thyroid which leds too high lvl to HGH or better igf 1 which is in my opinion the best fatburner. Also DHT makes you look very lean and shredded. loosing bodyfat by caloric restriction also possible but im not fan of it. Best is if you eat specific food in order to boost your thyroid and make exercise like weight lifting also i would look for liver supporting supps. Because if you loose fat fast also alot of pufas and toxins will be released in your blood stream and **** up your liver

 

[James IV]

I am skeptical it can be pulled off well at all, even following anti stress guidelines. It seems like you end up with a catch-22. If you are "youthful" enough, yes it will work, but will stress you and move someone more towards insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction. If you do not have the "youth," the stress will simply make things worse. I think this is actually a better method:



I talked to a lady at Sprouts the other day who had lost 15-20 pounds over a year and a half and she did it by just adding coconut oil to her shake and cooking with it. We have talked about weight loss on this forum for years, and it always boils down to this...do you try and lose weight fast and bear the stress, or go slow and have some of the downfalls of being overweight.

I've used fasting for over 8 years with nothing but benefits. I use it with almost all of my clients with great success. You must understand one needs to balance periods of fasting with periods of feasting. This is where most people fail. They fast, then they restrict intake when they feast, or they don't realize how many calories they actually need to eat.

You have to create an energy deficit to lower bodyfat. Ray said this himself when he was asked how someone can lose excess bodyfat.
Fasting is not harmful, in fact it's very beneficial if implemented properly. Fasting has been monumental in achieving and maintain my own health. This idea of "thyroid driven" weight loss seems good on paper, but I've never seen it actually achieved. When you start digging, you realize that people are either eating less calories due to different food choices, or they are moving more because of higher energy levels from nutritional need being met. Also, often when people fix their metabolism their digestion improves, lowering edema and inflammation in the mid section. This results in loss as well, but it's not from fat reserves. I've worked with many many people that claim that energy balance doesn't apply to them, but when you begin strictly monitoring intake and output, it always reveals that it does.

I'm 40 years old btw, if that's relevant.

 

[mayweatherking]

Isn't it the other way around, low t causes more body fat

 

[mayweatherking]

I've used fasting for over 8 years with nothing but benefits. I use it with almost all of my clients with great success. You must understand one needs to balance periods of fasting with periods of feasting. This is where most people fail. They fast, then they restrict intake when they feast, or they don't realize how many calories they actually need to eat.

You have to create an energy deficit to lower bodyfat. Ray said this himself when he was asked how someone can lose excess bodyfat.
Fasting is not harmful, in fact it's very beneficial if implemented properly. Fasting has been monumental in achieving and maintain my own health. This idea of "thyroid driven" weight loss seems good on paper, but I've never seen it actually achieved. When you start digging, you realize that people are either eating less calories due to better food choices, or they are moving more because of higher energy levels from nutritional need being met. Also, often when people fix their metabolism their digestion improves, lowering edema and inflammation in the mid section. This results in loss as well, but it's not from fat reserves. I've worked with many many people that claim that energy balance doesn't apply to them, but when you begin strictly monitoring intake and output, it always reveals that it does.

I'm 40 years old btw, if that's relevant.

A lot of weight is water retention.... a lot of that goes away with good thyroid function

 

[dibble]

Sprinting is the answer. A couple of 15 min sessions a week and fat drops off. Probably due to the signficant increase in DHT.

 

[James IV]

A lot of weight is water retention.... a lot of that goes away with good thyroid function

It does indeed. A strong metabolism allows proper detoxification and good intestinal integrity. Proper fasting also helps with both of these things.
By Rays definition I have a better metabolism using intermittent fasting than frequent eating.

Personally, with fasting I can eat more calories, stay warmer, have better function in every way, and respond better to the Achilles test. However, this is definitely related to my diet. When I chose a low fat diet, I was not able to fast without detriment. With nutrition, nothing can be viewed as good or bad in isolation.

 

[Tarmander]

I've used fasting for over 8 years with nothing but benefits. I use it with almost all of my clients with great success. You must understand one needs to balance periods of fasting with periods of feasting. This is where most people fail. They fast, then they restrict intake when they feast, or they don't realize how many calories they actually need to eat.

You have to create an energy deficit to lower bodyfat. Ray said this himself when he was asked how someone can lose excess bodyfat.
Fasting is not harmful, in fact it's very beneficial if implemented properly. Fasting has been monumental in achieving and maintain my own health. This idea of "thyroid driven" weight loss seems good on paper, but I've never seen it actually achieved. When you start digging, you realize that people are either eating less calories due to better food choices, or they are moving more because of higher energy levels from nutritional need being met. Also, often when people fix their metabolism their digestion improves, lowering edema and inflammation in the mid section. This results in loss as well, but it's not from fat reserves. I've worked with many many people that claim that energy balance doesn't apply to them, but when you begin strictly monitoring intake and output, it always reveals that it does.

I'm 40 years old btw, if that's relevant.

huh...well you can't argue with results. Do you apply this to all of your clients or do you have criteria? Meaning would you apply it to a tall strong, albeit overweight male, as to a short fat woman?

I am still skeptical, mostly from my years working in a health store. The amount of times that someone came up to me, and started talking about fasting...god their future was so predictable. They always felt great at first, cut the pounds, but some aspects of their life needed "growth and attention." It wasn't long before they had broken up with their S.O., were looking for a new job, moving some other place, or some other big life change. 6 months later they would come in tired from all these life changes, but ready to hit the fasting again when things stabilized, in remembrance of the mental clarity of an empty stomach. Within a year or two, they would be more tired, fatter, and run down then before.

In other words, I have not seen a case of fasting where someone's life became MORE stable afterwards then before. Sure people lose weight, I have seen that, but within a couple years, they are worse off as human beings. The amount of relationships they can hold, the complexity of their work, the amount of stress they can tolerate...all go down. I am open to being wrong though!

Just curious, what was your childhood like? Pretty stable? Crazy?

 

[James IV]

huh...well you can't argue with results. Do you apply this to all of your clients or do you have criteria? Meaning would you apply it to a tall strong, albeit overweight male, as to a short fat woman?

I am still skeptical, mostly from my years working in a health store. The amount of times that someone came up to me, and started talking about fasting...god their future was so predictable. They always felt great at first, cut the pounds, but some aspects of their life needed "growth and attention." It wasn't long before they had broken up with their S.O., were looking for a new job, moving some other place, or some other big life change. 6 months later they would come in tired from all these life changes, but ready to hit the fasting again when things stabilized, in remembrance of the mental clarity of an empty stomach. Within a year or two, they would be more tired, fatter, and run down then before.

In other words, I have not seen a case of fasting where someone's life became MORE stable afterwards then before. Sure people lose weight, I have seen that, but within a couple years, they are worse off as human beings. The amount of relationships they can hold, the complexity of their work, the amount of stress they can tolerate...all go down. I am open to being wrong though!

Just curious, what was your childhood like? Pretty stable? Crazy?

I see the very same thing, and I agree with you that fasting can be detrimental if applied improperly. However, we can say the same for any weight loss regime. The key is balance.
The biggest issue I see with fasting is that humans like black and white, and routine. If they fast 24 hours one week, and see good results, they want to fast 24 hours every week, regardless of what that week was like from an energy demand. You have to look at total stress input and current state of health, before you add fasting to that. I rarely put clients in any sort of fat loss program until I spend a month or so addressing potential nutritional deficits. I won't suggest a client fast regularly, until they feel pretty good overall. I don't have any set schedule and sometimes they may fast 5-10 days one month, and zero the next. It's always based on their current environment. Fasting is best when you have the least to do, and the least on your mind. Most people do the opposite because they like the boost from elevated catecholamines. This is the best way to wreck your system. Feed when energy demands are high, fast when they are low.
I also make sure there are days where myself and my clients just lay around and eat all day. Those are equally as important as the days you eat less frequently, or not at all.

My childhood was "normal" i suppose. Not terrible, but not sheltered either. A decent balance of death, divorce, violence, and love, support, friendship.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Fasting is one of the worst ideas for testosterone production and weight loss.
Not eating means depleted glycogen, this means decreased conversion of T4 to T3 and decreased insulin sensitivity, this means less uptake of cholesterol for testosterone production. It also means increased cortisol, cortisol means increased estrogen, estrogen means increased adipose deposition. This is not even controversial.

If you want to lose weight, keep your stress hormones down (don't fast or engage in any other inherently stressful activities) and provide anabolic stimulus.

 

[DuggaDugga]

It does indeed. A strong metabolism allows proper detoxification and good intestinal integrity. Proper fasting also helps with both of these things.
By Rays definition I have a better metabolism using intermittent fasting than frequent eating.

Personally, with fasting I can eat more calories, stay warmer, have better function in every way, and respond better to the Achilles test. However, this is definitely related to my diet. When I chose a low fat diet, I was not able to fast without detriment. With nutrition, nothing can be viewed as good or bad in isolation.

Could you provide references for that statement? I would love to read those in detail.

 

[James IV]

Could you provide references for that statement? I would love to read those in detail.

I can't off hand, sorry. My statements are from over a decade of accumulated information. These, of course, are my thoughts.
However, it shouldn't be hard to find many references to fasting lowering inflammation, I've seen many.

 

[DuggaDugga]

I can't off hand, sorry. My statements are from over a decade of accumulated information. But it shouldn't be hard to find many references to fasting lowering inflammation, I've seen many.

Fasting increases cortisol and down-regulates thyroid hormone. So you're achieving "anti-inflammation" by down-regulating your metabolism via stress hormones. Should he just inject himself with cortisone while he's at it?
Fasting as a metabolic stress paradigm selectively amplifies cortisol secretory burst mass and delays the time of maximal nyctohemeral cortisol con... - PubMed - NCBI
Fasting-induced changes in the hypothalamus-pituitary-thyroid axis. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[DHT]

Fasting is one of the worst ideas for testosterone production and weight loss.
Not eating means depleted glycogen, this means decreased conversion of T4 to T3 and decreased insulin sensitivity, this means less uptake of cholesterol for testosterone production. It also means increased cortisol, cortisol means increased estrogen, estrogen means increased adipose deposition. This is not even controversial.

If you want to lose weight, keep your stress hormones down (don't fast or engage in any other inherently stressful activities) and provide anabolic stimulus.

chronic fasting is bad but acute is good its like with everything you need the balance. The balance is the key there is night and day. In day you work you get exhausted in night you sleep and recover. Same with fasting. Fasting can be very beneficial to some point. It depends in which state the person is. And stress hormones can also be beneficial to loose weight for example the fat which is hard too loose . YOu can only get rid of this fat with stress hormones . You cant be like this stop do white and black thinking. We are all different what works on him maybe wont work in second one. SOrry for bad english not native speaker. FAsting is beneficial because its regenerate your body particularly your liver i think because its evelate hgh lvls. This leads to higher igf 1 lvls and igf regenartes the body like insulin.

 

[James IV]

Fasting increases cortisol and down-regulates thyroid hormone. So you're achieving "anti-inflammation" by down-regulating your metabolism via stress hormones. Should he just inject himself with cortisone while he's at it?
Fasting as a metabolic stress paradigm selectively amplifies cortisol secretory burst mass and delays the time of maximal nyctohemeral cortisol con... - PubMed - NCBI
Fasting-induced changes in the hypothalamus-pituitary-thyroid axis. - PubMed - NCBI

"Stress" hormones are simply energy mobilization hormones. There is nothing wrong with elevating these sometimes, and you will never lose bodyfat if you keep them low all the time. In fact keeping them too low will make you feel terrible. Have you ever spoken to someone with cortisol deficiency?

And tou don't need high conversion of thyroid when you aren't burning a lot of carbohydrate. It's a self regulating system.

 

[dibble]

Could you provide references for that statement? I would love to read those in detail.

Just check through his blog, its called 180 degree health if I recall.