Blot Clot, Torn Ligaments, Clexane, Warfarin...

[cowgirl88]

Hi All

Long story short...17/08/15 I jumped off a trailer at work and damaged the left knee. They did Xray (don't know why) then an MRI on 22/08, which found I have torn the ACL and meniscus, have bakers cyst & some other things are listed on the results but those are the main points.

From the 20/08, my left calf began aching like hell & changing a purple colour...I assumed it was from not using that leg (I'm on crutches) but over the weekend it got worse. Told the Dr on 24/08, she sent me immediately for ultrasound which revealed a blot clot about half way down the calf.

I'm now on daily Clexane injections until the IRN(?) levels are over 2 and they've got me on Warfarin tablets at night also, currently at 10mg. I'm seeing an orthopaedic surgeon next week to discuss operating but they can't do that until the clot is under control.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why I may have got a blood clot and any info on what I should and should not consume or do? Apparently I have to be careful about what can and can't eat or use on the skin even... Thanks in advance

 

[Blossom]

INR is a measurement that has to do with the bloods tendency to clot. They want try to avoid/reduce the risk of a stroke or pulmonary embolism before doing any type of surgery. Sometimes clots in the extremities can break loose and travel to other parts of the body and create a dangerous or life threatening problem. That's about the extent of my knowledge on the situation in layman's terms. Perhaps others will have additional or more specific information.

 

[cowgirl88]

Thank you Blossom...
I'm curious to know, if anyone can give a theory, as to why I may have ended up with DVT in the first place? I wasn't able to do much moving with that leg, was quite sedentary for a few days. I thought I was peating quite well and doing aspirin & K2...maybe I wasn't eating quite enough calories

BTW, warfarin makes you generally feel pretty crappy!

 

[Blossom]

post 101032 Thank you Blossom...
I'm curious to know, if anyone can give a theory, as to why I may have ended up with DVT in the first place? I wasn't able to do much moving with that leg, was quite sedentary for a few days. I thought I was peating quite well and doing aspirin & K2...maybe I wasn't eating quite enough calories

BTW, warfarin makes you generally feel pretty crappy!

High estrogen comes to mind as a possibility just as women on birth control are at higher risk for clots. Clots are always a risk in injuries such as you describe. It's basically a nasty internal bruise that you want to gradually dissolve rather than break loose and travel through the blood stream and lodge in some vital organ. I hope you feel better soon cowgirl88.

 

[tara]

I wonder if you could talk to dr about the possibility of getting the blood thinning effect of warfarin using aspirin instead, and find out what a reasonable dose of aspirin would be to get same effect? And get drs pinion on vit-K?

I thought just being still for too many hours was one of the key risks for DVT - along with the injury itself.

What Blossom says about the risk of clots breaking loose and lodging in a worse place makes sense to me. I know someone who lost half their spleen to a clot that originated elsewhere - very glad it didn't stop in a more critical place.

 

[Blossom]

Yes tara I too believe having to be still due to an injury contributes to the clot issue.

 

[Blossom]

I found this quote from Ray Peat

Very high TSH can cause coagulation problems.

I'm not sure exactly what very high means but it may be worth checking your TSH if you haven't recently and working on/continuing to optimize thyroid function.

 

[Blossom]

Keeping serotonin and endotoxin in check would most likely be beneficial to your situation as well.

 

[Renaiscience_Man]

I believe my multiple clotting events were due to high serotonin and estrogen. Consider what symptoms you have been going through. Meds, herbs, etc can contribute to the issue as well.

 

[cowgirl88]

This is where I get confused, in the brochure it says not to take K2 whilst on warfarin, why?? Maybe I'm getting confused about the roles of aspirin and K2...

I did try talk to the GP about going on aspirin but she didn't think much of it, and although I would normally do my own thing but under these high risk circumstances, thought it be best to listen to the drs this time round!

So it's now been 8weeks since the injury and the clot forming...was meant to go for surgery on the 13th but they cancelled coz the clot is still there. I definitely agree I have estrogen and serotonin issues..am currently not taking any supplements as I'm not sure what would interfere with the warfarin?

I've been peating to my best knowlege for a few years now, but just cannot seem to get on top of things.Now feeling even worse on warfarin Still not consuming enough calories especially at the moment. I'm scared of eating and I know I need to find a way to look past that and get my whole lifestyle back on a more positive pathway...

 

[Blossom]

Vitamin k can counteract some of the anticoagulant properties of blood thinners. It's a bit of a delicate balance in your case where the specific goal is to dissolve a clot. I'm sorry to hear you are feeling worse but it is understandable with all you've been through. If it were me I would just focus on good nutrition for now to help prepare the body for surgery. Once you are through this you can focus more on optimizing the metabolism and hormones so you hopefully don't have to go through anything similar again. I think it's wise to not throw a bunch of supplements into the mix right now but just focus on getting through this ordeal. I hope all goes well and please keep us posted. :)

 

[cowgirl88]

Thank you Blossom, it really does help hearing that. Personally I think I'm doing quite well, being one who enjoys work it's been a challenge but I'm accepting of what is happening, and taking each day as it comes...but it is a lil frustrating not knowing why this clot is still hanging around. Am trying to utilise this time to learn how to relax, but also work on the metabolism as I know I'm not eating enough. After trying milk for couple of years, I'm not convinced it's working for me so the last 2 weeks I have cut it out. Sinuses feel clearer but that's about all the changes I've seen..pretty sure starches don't work too good for me either, definitely cop a lot of endotoxin symptoms after. Would really love to upload a pic of what my gut has looked like for the last 10years and work out what the hell is going on there! That has to be the most annoying, uncomfortable symptom I've so far experienced. Poor liver function?

 

[Blossom]

post 105064 m trying to utilise this time to learn how to relax, but also work on the metabolism as I know I'm not eating enough.

That sounds like an excellent plan cowgirl. I know it's tough and frustrating for you but I have no doubt you will get through this equipped with the knowledge to help minimize the chances of having to go through this again. Sometimes accidents/emergencies happen and we find ourselves in the midst of receiving medical treatment and we feel we really have little choice in the matter (if we want to live). That alone is stressful! I'm just glad you have been able to avoid something far more serious like a clot to the lung, heart or brain.

I really enjoyed Mittir's fruit and vegetable broth when I was having digestive difficulty. It's probably not a lot of calories but I found it soothing and nourishing: viewtopic.php?t=3536#p42050
I would sometimes add gelatin and a bit of coconut oil to the broth to make it a bit more filling. :)
There are lots of other ideas here on the forum for things you can do to help strengthen yourself nutritionally while you prepare for surgery. I hope others reply with some helpful tips and insight. Wishing you the best! Blossom

 

[cowgirl88]

Has anyone on here taken blood clots in to their own hands and utilised aspirin instead of anticoagulants like warfarin? I hate this ***t and really want to get off it but I also understand that clots are dangerous... Thoughts?

 

[Renaiscience_Man]

post 105231 Has anyone on here taken blood clots in to their own hands and utilised aspirin instead of anticoagulants like warfarin? I hate this s*** and really want to get off it but I also understand that clots are dangerous... Thoughts?

I would say don't get too excited to try things so fast. I was put on warfarin in 2013 for one year due to stroke at the age of 31, and I believe due to its vitamin k blocking action that messes up the calcium metabolism I would get tons of symptoms of low metabolism. I quit warfarin and tried low dose aspirin and some herbs. Within 2 weeks, I had pulmonary embolism that infarcted my lungs badly. Most painful experience I have ever had in my entire life. It still hurts... I am glad that I am alive though. Now, I am on heparin shots for about a year which has terrible side effects as well.

This summer, I attempted to solve this problem with high dose aspirin. I took 4,5 grams of aspirin, a teaspoonful of lotion crafter vit-e with coconut oil, and 45mg of Thorne K2 daily. Again, after 2 weeks, my body formed blood clots in my legs. I am trying to understand how come my body forms clots at such a high dose of aspirin. Now, I am back on heparin, but I still wonder whether it was high dose vit k that neutralized the blood thinning effects of aspirin.

I talked to Dr. Peat about it. He said, ''clotting time must be measured regardless of the type of blood thinner person is taking.''

I am left with 3 options.

1) sticking with heparin that will melt my bones away. It is known to cause liver damage for some people as well.

2) High dose aspirin with much less vitamin k while measuring the clotting time periodically. Maybe everyday for the beginning.

3) Xarelto, which is an anticoagulant that is not very well understood yet. It makes me think of finasteride for hair loss which caused permanent erectile dysfunction for some men.

 

[Sheila]

FWIW I have watched a few people on warfarin carefully. I saw INR's go down (ie. 'thicker' blood, which I take to mean more inflammation or something not helpful happening) when 4 drops of Estroban (ADEK) was introduced. I can't imagine the (effectively) low dose K in that otherwise excellent supplement caused too much clotting and I kind of fingered the D in both cases as some people seem to react badly to Vit D, not entirely sure why (and not here because they were in excess or in deficit of it, blood results were at 40). Neither person had any obvious problems with Estroban if they had not been watching INRs. I am NOT saying that Estroban causes inflam or INR changes per se, this is not an exact test, but that I had noted it in fairly unwell people who had been stable and Estroban inclusion was the only thing that - as far as I could tell - changed.

I do see warfarin causing inappropriate calcium deposition (soft tissue) and no doubt it also affects metabolism because of this or vice versa since inappropriate calcium deposition triggers fibrosis and eventually cell death. No doubt that warfarin users get inappropriate calcification. I've found that 400mg mag (glycinate or malate) in divided doses seems to counteract some of this (using obvious signs like small joint nodules/large muscle calcification to monitor) and the reasons are many as to why mag would help. Plenty of reports here that 400mg of mag being metabolically enhancing it would seem with/without existing calcium issues. I concur on a raft of my anecdotal experience.

I have seen 400iu Vit E increase INR levels so that warfarin can be reduced. Beware of iron depletion with this strategy. I believe I have seen it quite a few times and in those metabolically slow anaemia (yes, with checking a full iron panel) is common for a variety of reasons. Hence, "the anaemia of chronic disease" label.

I also think that INRs are changed if not quite moment to moment, by what people have eaten near to the test, or what has happened that day so they're not absolutely reliable, and so it's useful to remember the limitation of that test but better than a clot of course. My reason for writing is watch changing too many things if relying on the test. I am certain hypoglycaemia induces extra bleeding and thereby permeability of the gut and extra endotoxin burden in the bloodstream causing more inflammation. I would use all of the gut improving strategies detailed here, very high dose CoQ10 is anti-endotoxic I believe, and seems to give some people a 'breathing space' but I suspect based on my experience that gut might be where the issue lies. And thereby increases serotonin, oestrogen, liver clearance etc. follow Temps and pulse might well help.

I have seen a couple of people on Xarelto. If one were old and frail (and wealthy) it wouldn't be my choice. It has a carbon to halogen bond (C-Cl) and that's not pleasant according to most people's Livers. And there is no antidote to this one.

I hope some of this is of use, just my findings, which I hope I have perceived and indeed reported correctly. Sorry if you already know all of this.

Sheila