Blood Letting For Iron Removal & Health - Experiences And Advice

[tankasnowgod]

@tankasnowgod @Tarmander @mayweatherking @dbh25 @Regina @lisaferraro

To everyone who has experience with blood removal/donating/letting: Did you ever experience any signs of "estrogen reduction" removing blood? Like decreased edema, lighter skin, less noticeable moles, etc? Any improvement with allergies?

Maybe @haidut would also know something about this: Is there any scientific basis for blood removal lowering estrogen? Would you say blood removal is overall more stressful or beneficial (in terms of hormonal effects)?

Would removing 50 ml of blood every few days be less stressful, and equally as beneficial, as removing the whole 450-500 ml at once?

I didn't notice any of those particular things, although in my case, it did seem to improve mood and energy levels.

As far as doing a smaller amount over a longer time, yes, it should be just as effective at lowering iron. I don't know if it would be less stressful, however. You would be repeatedly be puncturing your skin and veins, and that may lead to greater stress. It would also be a much more demanding schedule (In your example, nine mini phlebotimies as opposed to one larger one), although you may not have to take things as easy on your donation days. Probably similar to having a blood test done. In fact, I believe Haidut actually ran into this iron lowering effect at a time when he was doing several blood tests over a relatively short period in time.

 

[Davinci]

*Bump* anyone with thoughts on this?

I would be interested in this as well. Would be great to find a less invasive solution than giving blood.

 

[aguilaroja]

... It would also be a much more demanding schedule (In your example, nine mini phlebotimies as opposed to one larger one)...Probably similar to having a blood test done.

...Would be great to find a less invasive solution than giving blood.

“FWIW”

I did experiment years ago with frequent “mini phlebotomies” over months, with the help of sympathetic practitioners. I often scheduled lab tests at spaced intervals so that I could monitor things and reduce iron. Even with accessible help, it is not very convenient.

I have found it more practical to reduce iron intake. This works better when a person can reduce iron gradually, compared with someone with high iron levels and high iron stores and benefits from swifter relief.

For me, this basically meant emphasizing animal protein sources with lower iron content, like cheese/dairy and gelatin, and reducing quantities of vegetables with high iron content. I generally avoid cooking with cast iron pans. This took several months or more to lower iron study lab tests dramatically. It worked gradually. (Of course, I am careful to have ample intake of other nutrients.)

When my iron stores and tests were high, I had dramatic benefits in the days following blood donations: elevated mood, improved energy and flexibility. I still donate blood, but the boost is less pronounced than when iron stores were especially high.

 

[dbh25]

“FWIW”

I did experiment years ago with frequent “mini phlebotomies” over months, with the help of sympathetic practitioners. I often scheduled lab tests at spaced intervals so that I could monitor things and reduce iron. Even with accessible help, it is not very convenient.

I have found it more practical to reduce iron intake. This works better when a person can reduce iron gradually, compared with someone with high iron levels and high iron stores and benefits from swifter relief.

For me, this basically meant emphasizing animal protein sources with lower iron content, like cheese/dairy and gelatin, and reducing quantities of vegetables with high iron content. I generally avoid cooking with cast iron pans. This took several months or more to lower iron study lab tests dramatically. It worked gradually. (Of course, I am careful to have ample intake of other nutrients.)

When my iron stores and tests were high, I had dramatic benefits in the days following blood donations: elevated mood, improved energy and flexibility. I still donate blood, but the boost is less pronounced than when iron stores were especially high.

How high was your iron before, and what do you consider an optimal range?

 

[ZeroSum]

One tidbit. Aspirin causes/increases GI bleeding (A.K.A. occult bleeding) and it is believed that could be one of its cardioprotective mechanisms.
Apparently though, the effective dose for this effect is quite variable.

 

[artlange]

I donated blood in Dec 2016 and Feb 2017. Since then my hemoglobin has been below 13 and the blood bank won't take any more until the Hgb increases. I did not notice anything at the time of donation (neither mental or physical) however in March 2017, I noticed my hair was getting less gray, Now a few months later it is definitely much less gray and much more brown. I don't know if this was related to blood donation or one of the other changes. Less PUFA, thyroid, liver, in other words changes to become more Petarian.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

As for your idea of removing a smaller amount of blood more frequently, yes, it would work for iron reduction. Dr. Fachinni in "The Iron Factor of Aging" mentions lack of intestinal parasites (they would feed on host blood) as one reason why iron levels tend to be higher in modern society. Essentially, they are constantly removing a small amount of blood from the host. I would think that minimize side effects like dizziness and such, but you would be puncturing your skin and veins more often, which could cause a host of different side effects. I would also think it would be a tougher schedule to maintain.

Is this why Ray Peat went to mexico?

Genius!

 

[tankasnowgod]

I donated blood in Dec 2016 and Feb 2017. Since then my hemoglobin has been below 13 and the blood bank won't take any more until the Hgb increases. I did not notice anything at the time of donation (neither mental or physical) however in March 2017, I noticed my hair was getting less gray, Now a few months later it is definitely much less gray and much more brown. I don't know if this was related to blood donation or one of the other changes. Less PUFA, thyroid, liver, in other words changes to become more Petarian.

While it would be smart to check your ferritin and TSAT, you could probably raise your hemoglobin with a B Complex. B12, B6, and folate are all involved in generating new hemoglobin. Lack of B Vitamins are well known to be a cause of anemia, so much so, that two anemias are named for it- pernicious anemia and pyridoxine deficiency anemia.

I also noticed a reduction of gray hairs (only had a few) when I lowered my iron stores, although I was focused on eating more copper rich foods as well.

 

[artlange]

While it would be smart to check your ferritin and TSAT, you could probably raise your hemoglobin with a B Complex. B12, B6, and folate are all involved in generating new hemoglobin. Lack of B Vitamins are well known to be a cause of anemia, so much so, that two anemias are named for it- pernicious anemia and pyridoxine deficiency anemia.

I also noticed a reduction of gray hairs (only had a few) when I lowered my iron stores, although I was focused on eating more copper rich foods as well.

I did have my iron, transferrin, iron binding capacity, and total iron binding capacity measurements made in November before starting blood donation, and they were all within lab normal limits. I had been supplementing with Cu for a long time before my first donation when I had grey hair . The two biggest changes were the blood donations and supplementing thyroid and then the hair became less gray. I have liver once a week and also supplement daily with B vitamins. I'll have my Hgb tested soon.

One downer for blood donation at my Blood Bank is stopping aspirin for 48 hours before the blood draw.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I did have my iron, transferrin, iron binding capacity, and total iron binding capacity measurements made in November before starting blood donation, and they were all within lab normal limits. I had been supplementing with Cu for a long time before my first donation when I had grey hair . The two biggest changes were the blood donations and supplementing thyroid and then the hair became less gray. I have liver once a week and also supplement daily with B vitamins. I'll have my Hgb tested soon.

One downer for blood donation at my Blood Bank is stopping aspirin for 48 hours before the blood draw.

Well, "In Range" can be huge. I think for men, Ferritin goes from 30-400. If your Ferritin was, say, 70 before you started donating, then the low hemoglobin could be due to low iron. If it was higher, like in the 200 or 300 range, it's more likely lack of B Vitamins. Blood donation usually lowers ferritin by about 30 every time, so you can estimate what it is now based your original number and the times you've donated.

 

[aguilaroja]

How high was your iron before, and what do you consider an optimal range?

Briefly, in my situation, serum iron and iron storage studies went from the high end of the “normal” reference range, or slightly above, to the lowest end of the reference range. Reducing iron intake in diet was the only intentional change. Serum hemoglobin moved from consistently high to mid range. Symptoms and lab studies gave no indication of other mineral, B vitamin, or liver issues.

 

[bornamachine]

I've had saturation at 67% and ferretin at around 350 with below normal binding capacity, took 2 donations to feel better but on about 4th I noticed I started to crash and hard if I didn't eat often, it's been a battle ever since, after I donated one more time thinking it might help but it made no difference, reducing iron in my case helped with alot of other issues but introduced the crashing which has something to do with liver/thyroid connection and I'm trying to figure it out. From my experience I would not recommend donation if you are 150 or below and even though ma you sources say you should get down to 25-75 range, I believe I'm currently at 40ish. Iron is dangerous and toxic and your body has to handle it very carefully but it is also essential, but very toxic in free form, let's not forget that. Balance.

 

[artlange]

Well, "In Range" can be huge. I think for men, Ferritin goes from 30-400. If your Ferritin was, say, 70 before you started donating, then the low hemoglobin could be due to low iron. If it was higher, like in the 200 or 300 range, it's more likely lack of B Vitamins. Blood donation usually lowers ferritin by about 30 every time, so you can estimate what it is now based your original number and the times you've donated.

I'm planning another iron test. It has been less than a year, and since there were no big issues in Nov, it's hard to get my Dr. to schedule all of the tests I want.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I'm planning another iron test. It has been less than a year, and since there were no big issues in Nov, it's hard to get my Dr. to schedule all of the tests I want.

There are places where you can buy your own tests direct. And like I said, if you know what your ferritin before donating, you can get a decent estimate from subtracting 30 from it for each donation since.

 

[Frankdee20]

I've done it twice in 8-9 months for the first time. My hemoglobin is currently in the 14's, hematocrit is never that high, but above 40 usually. I can't say I experienced any type of weakness or instability afterwards. Only benefit I get is believing that it possibly good for me, lol. :)

 

[artlange]

I donated blood in Dec 2016 and Feb 2017. Since then my hemoglobin has been below 13 and the blood bank won't take any more until the Hgb increases. I did not notice anything at the time of donation (neither mental or physical) however in March 2017, I noticed my hair was getting less gray, Now a few months later it is definitely much less gray and much more brown. I don't know if this was related to blood donation or one of the other changes. Less PUFA, thyroid, liver, in other words changes to become more Petarian.

I made a 3rd donation in May and early Sep had a ferritin test 134ng/mL. In November 2016 my ferritin was 350ng/mL. I was planning another blood donation to help bring ferritin closer to 75. Any thoughts about this plan?

 

[tankasnowgod]

I made a 3rd donation in May and early Sep had a ferritin test 134ng/mL. In November 2016 my ferritin was 350ng/mL. I was planning another blood donation to help bring ferritin closer to 75. Any thoughts about this plan?

Using the 30ng/ml estimate, it would probably take two more donations to get it to about 75. So, it would work, so long as you can donate.

Is hemoglobin an issue? Did you try using a B complex?

If you only donated 3 times, your ferritin went down quicker than expected. Did you use any complementary iron reducing protocol? Like diet, IP6, aspirin, exercise, sauna use, or lactoferrin?

 

[artlange]

Using the 30ng/ml estimate, it would probably take two more donations to get it to about 75. So, it would work, so long as you can donate.

Is hemoglobin an issue? Did you try using a B complex?

If you only donated 3 times, your ferritin went down quicker than expected. Did you use any complementary iron reducing protocol? Like diet, IP6, aspirin, exercise, sauna use, or lactoferrin?

I was surprised at the total drop in ferririn which was to be more than (350 - 134 = 216ng/mL) My average change in ferritin/donation was 72ng/mL/donation). I plan to donate again if my hemoglobin is above 13, and it will be interesIf I donate again, and then re-measure ferritin.

Hemoglobin was an issue (too low) after the sceond donation for a few months. I tried several times to donate before May, and my hemoglobin was 12.6 or so, which was below their 13 lower limit. In May when I donated, they had me hold a hot bottle of water (about 25mm dia and 100 mm long) before the hemoglobin test which resulted in a level of 15. (my highest reading in the last few years.) Not sure what effect the hot water had on my hemoglobin reading.

In August I went to a mountain resort at 5500 feet and felt winded for a few days. This might be related to the blood donation in May. I had visited that mountain resort at 5500 feet every summer for the last 10 years and never had a problem getting winded like I did this year about 10 weeks after a blood donation..

I had been taking 50mg B6 since January to improve my hemoglobon and switched to B6 P5P in May, around the time of the last donation. I had about 4oz of liver on average every 2-3 weeks since March and about 8oz of ruminant meat about every 3-4 weeks.

I started drinking Milk and OJ in March, and supplemental aspirin (4x/day 325mg) in late august, about 2 weeks before the last blood test. I was not taking vit C for the last 6 months and recently re-started. I do walk 5 times per week only breathing through my nose and at a HR of 110 to 120.

 

[axorr]

Sorry but I find the most utterly stupid bull****, to say that coffee is good for grey hair.

I did not have grey hair until I drank lots of coffee.

Since I stoped coffee, new grey hairs did not sprout.

All accounts on lchf claim that they lose grey hair but NOT if they drink coffee.

 

[Blossom]

In May when I donated, they had me hold a hot bottle of water (about 25mm dia and 100 mm long) before the hemoglobin test which resulted in a level of 15.

I believe the heat just drew more blood to the surface basically tricking the test- a little more blood, a little more hemoglobin.