Blacking out

[Nicholas]

post 102777 I'm not sure where anyone told ILS to take vitamins. When I am talking about nutrients, I am talking about the macronutrients -- sugar, fat and protein -- in order for them to be assimilated so the rest of the metabolism will work. I'm much less concerned about being right about that than solving the fact that this person is barely functional. Whatever turns the trick will be the right answer.

i wasn't talking about nutrients, i was talking about supplements. you and Haidut page 3 talking about aminos and "dumping" vitamins. my simple intent is to offer that there could be some foundational issues that have not been resolved or learned yet.

 

[messtafarian]

The aminos haidut is talking about are the MAP amino pattern, which build a complete protein in the event that proteins are not being absorbed. They are only supplements for when a person can't eat enough to feed their metabolism. Their advantage is that they do not have to travel the entire length of the intestine to be assimilated and produce energy. They're not "vitamins."

 

[Nicholas]

post 102781 The aminos haidut is talking about are the MAP amino pattern, which build a complete protein in the event that proteins are not being absorbed. They are only supplements for when a person can't eat enough to feed their metabolism. Their advantage is that they do not have to travel the entire length of the intestine to be assimilated and produce energy. They're not "vitamins."

you are right. they are supplements. i mention vitamins nowhere in my post.

 

[messtafarian]

Okay, the reason to "supplement" with MAP aminos is to make sure the body is getting enough protein. The reason to get enough protein is that low protein diets are anti-thyroid. The reason haidut suggested it is because ILS is supplementing *thyroid* without being able to eat enough *protein.* Or actually enough of anything as far as I can tell. Sugar is another issue and just as important.

 

[iLoveSugar]

I bought a new BG meter and have been reading in the mid 90's.

Eating enough food is VERY hard for me, and I am not sure shoving food in me, which makes me bloated and crampy is good. Yeah? When I mentioned to RP that I was trying to eat more, and getting crampy, his reply was "Are you hungry when you eat more"?

And again, no matter what combos, no food/liquid or anything has ever gave me temporary relief.

Thanks for the help, and I am looking for any more input you may have. I'm all open ears right now.

 

[iLoveSugar]

This was my day today, and even trying to get this much in was very tough.

 

[Nicholas]

post 102784 Okay, the reason to "supplement" with MAP aminos is to make sure the body is getting enough protein. The reason to get enough protein is that low protein diets are anti-thyroid. The reason haidut suggested it is because ILS is supplementing *thyroid* without being able to eat enough *protein.* Or actually enough of anything as far as I can tell. Sugar is another issue and just as important.

right. it's not always a quick climb out of the hole. Taking thyroid in this situation seems like it would add a burden to the system being unable to eat as much right now. (not to mention that it's not making things any better as far as i know). more information would have to be known about ILS's diet before i would recommend aminos. It's not that supplements are bad, it's that they are bad when they are used in place of gaining true understanding about one's condition. Not nearly enough information has been supplied to make very specific recommendations. Very specific recommendations are for practitioners that know and understand all the variables and the full story on an individual, which we do not.

 

[iLoveSugar]

RP keeps mentioning thyroid; I think one of the reasons is that it is supposed to make me hungry to eat more? But you're right, it's not done me a spec of good.

 

[Nicholas]

post 102787 I bought a new BG meter and have been reading in the mid 90's.

Eating enough food is VERY hard for me, and I am not sure shoving food in me, which makes me bloated and crampy is good. Yeah? When I mentioned to RP that I was trying to eat more, and getting crampy, his reply was "Are you hungry when you eat more"?

And again, no matter what combos, no food/liquid or anything has ever gave me temporary relief.

Thanks for the help, and I am looking for any more input you may have. I'm all open ears right now.

A BG meter does not tell you anything about how you are regulating your blood sugar. When your temp and pulse stop fluctuating (perhaps slowly) then you know you are regulating your blood sugar.

You should not be shoving food in you, you should be eating your right kinds of foods in your right ratios in your right amounts at your right times. It may be very little. But little consistency and balance is better than little inconsistency and little imbalance. I'd be curious to hear what protein/fat/carb sources you've experimented with. Regulating blood sugar is more than combos, it's just as equally about amounts and frequencies. I don't know the extent of your experimentation or if you are doing the best kind of experimentation.

In regards to your Cronometer graphic, Cronometer is not a great tool at depicting what you are doing dietary-wise. It's only real value is giving you gram/calorie/nutrient data. This data is useful only in applying it to some kind of food logging/journaling where you are depicting daily meals and times with how you feel, temp., pulse, general function, etc. Cronomoter shows daily ratios but it doesn't show your ratios per meal. Cronometer shows daily calories but it doesn't show calories per meal. Cronometer also doesn't show how much you slept the night before, when you woke up, what time you ate this or that, etc. Your food logs are for you. They are for your introspection and for putting pieces together. When you start writing everything down it gets the process out of your head and you start seeing the reality.

I'm glad you've acknowledged maybe something you didn't before about thyroid not doing you any good. I was hesitant to go out on a limb and say it's dangerous for you to be taking not really knowing anything about you. But if Peat is saying to take thyroid to stimulate appetite it seems like very misguided information. But then he also gives out a lot of e-mail advice to one or two line questions without knowing hardly anything about the individual. Peat is not a practitioner, but i think he is genuinely trying to help and serve others.

 

[iLoveSugar]

My experiment is very sporadic with absolute no consistency. I will say though that for about 2 months, I was faithfully doing 3-4 smoothies per day which included 3/4 cup strained, rinsed, and drained cottage cheese (full fat and low fat), handful of cherries, handful of blueberries, 1 tbsp coconut oil, 2-3 tbs sugar, 1/4 tsp salt and usually 1/4 cup of mineral water or regular water or milk to make it liquidy. That experiment never did me any good. Every 3rd day or so I was eating oysters or liver.

Do you have any recommendations as to a new experiment to try as far as combos? From there I can tweak. I'm in a state of despair right now. This doc may not be able to help tomorrow, but who knows. He deals with quite a bit of neurological issues.

Salt is another thing that I try to supplement with, but the weird thing is, I never ever want salt. I can literally live without it and never want it. No idea why.

 

[messtafarian]

post 102789

post 102784 Okay, the reason to "supplement" with MAP aminos is to make sure the body is getting enough protein. The reason to get enough protein is that low protein diets are anti-thyroid. The reason haidut suggested it is because ILS is supplementing *thyroid* without being able to eat enough *protein.* Or actually enough of anything as far as I can tell. Sugar is another issue and just as important.

right. it's not always a quick climb out of the hole. Taking thyroid in this situation seems like it would add a burden to the system being unable to eat as much right now. (not to mention that it's not making things any better as far as i know). more information would have to be known about ILS's diet before i would recommend aminos. It's not that supplements are bad, it's that they are bad when they are used in place of gaining true understanding about one's condition. Not nearly enough information has been supplied to make very specific recommendations. Very specific recommendations are for practitioners that know and understand all the variables and the full story on an individual, which we do not.

Actually I did not make that recommendation. Haidut wrote about the aminos on another thread and brought them up as an easier protein source to assimilate. All the suggestions haidut makes are pretty well researched and it's for that reason I bought the aminos since getting by on less protein with an inflamed gut sounds like a good deal to me.

Instead of coming here to argue with what people have already added to this conversation it would be more productive to add your own suggestions. It's obvious that no one is claiming to be a practitioner with all the answers for anyone; you can read that on the stickies at the top of the boards. It's a lot easier to skim through a whole thread and pick out all the wrongs things people have said -- that's not helpful either.

I'm not going to reply to you anymore here since this is a thread about ILS and not about what you think is appropriate on this forum.

 

[Nicholas]

post 102794

post 102789

post 102784 Okay, the reason to "supplement" with MAP aminos is to make sure the body is getting enough protein. The reason to get enough protein is that low protein diets are anti-thyroid. The reason haidut suggested it is because ILS is supplementing *thyroid* without being able to eat enough *protein.* Or actually enough of anything as far as I can tell. Sugar is another issue and just as important.

right. it's not always a quick climb out of the hole. Taking thyroid in this situation seems like it would add a burden to the system being unable to eat as much right now. (not to mention that it's not making things any better as far as i know). more information would have to be known about ILS's diet before i would recommend aminos. It's not that supplements are bad, it's that they are bad when they are used in place of gaining true understanding about one's condition. Not nearly enough information has been supplied to make very specific recommendations. Very specific recommendations are for practitioners that know and understand all the variables and the full story on an individual, which we do not.

Actually I did not make that recommendation. Haidut wrote about the aminos on another thread and brought them up as an easier protein source to assimilate. All the suggestions haidut makes are pretty well researched and it's for that reason I bought the aminos since getting by on less protein with an inflamed gut sounds like a good deal to me.

Instead of coming here to argue with what people have already added to this conversation it would be more productive to add your own suggestions. It's obvious that no one is claiming to be a practitioner with all the answers for anyone; you can read that on the stickies at the top of the boards. It's a lot easier to skim through a whole thread and pick out all the wrongs things people have said -- that's not helpful either.

I'm not going to reply to you anymore here since this is a thread about ILS and not about what you think is appropriate on this forum.

i'm confused. my comment on the aminos suggestion was one line in a long paragraph of suggestions. and then you came into the conversation to argue with me. I consistently over time try to point out the misguided suggestions/approaches here in an attempt to help posters like ILS or those lurking.

 

[Nicholas]

post 102793 My experiment is very sporadic with absolute no consistency. I will say though that for about 2 months, I was faithfully doing 3-4 smoothies per day which included 3/4 cup strained, rinsed, and drained cottage cheese (full fat and low fat), handful of cherries, handful of blueberries, 1 tbsp coconut oil, 2-3 tbs sugar, 1/4 tsp salt and usually 1/4 cup of mineral water or regular water or milk to make it liquidy. That experiment never did me any good. Every 3rd day or so I was eating oysters or liver.

Do you have any recommendations as to a new experiment to try as far as combos? From there I can tweak. I'm in a state of despair right now. This doc may not be able to help tomorrow, but who knows. He deals with quite a bit of neurological issues.

Salt is another thing that I try to supplement with, but the weird thing is, I never ever want salt. I can literally live without it and never want it. No idea why.

I'm not a practitioner, but my focus for the past year has been the practitioner angle of "peatarianism". So i could help with as much as i have to offer. I will message you.

 

[tara]

post 102792 A BG meter does not tell you anything about how you are regulating your blood sugar.

I think it can tell something (but not everything). A bunch of readings all in the 90s means no severe hyperglycemia or hypoglycemia at those points. A blood glucose reading is a point reading, and blood glucose levels can change fairly quickly. So one could still have hypo dips in between readings (i imagine it would be harder to think about testing right at the bottom of a trough). I'm no expert on this, but to me it seems like a good sign wrt blood sugar regulation. There are people who frequently get much high and much lower numbers.

What stood out to me on your chronometer chart was fairly low consumption of magnesium, potassium and sodium. I imagine you've had blood levels of at least sodium and potassium done?
The normal sodium levels (I don't recall what units are use here) is 135-145. I know someone who had severe confusion and sudden falls when sodium levels dropped significantly below range. They had to be brought up slowly and carefully in hospital to restore them safely (doing it too fast can cause more damage). I don't think he was deliberately avoiding salt in his diet, just didn't get around to eating very much of it. He was instructed to add salt to the food he cooked, and has been OK in this respect since.
I don't know the normal range for potassium blood levels.

 

[Sea]

I bought a new BG meter and have been reading in the mid 90's.

Eating enough food is VERY hard for me, and I am not sure shoving food in me, which makes me bloated and crampy is good. Yeah? When I mentioned to RP that I was trying to eat more, and getting crampy, his reply was "Are you hungry when you eat more"?

And again, no matter what combos, no food/liquid or anything has ever gave me temporary relief.

Thanks for the help, and I am looking for any more input you may have. I'm all open ears right now.

No food should cause bloating or cramping. If a food is doing this then you are not digesting it and it is causing more harm than good. If you are tolerating a food, then after you consume it your stomach will not feel any different than before. You should not be able to feel anything sitting in your stomach, no noises should be made, your stomach should feel just as empty as it was before you ate, the only difference is you should no longer be hungry.

Again, I would advise you to stop drinking milk, and to really pay attention to how you respond if you choose to consume oysters, liver, or plain sugar. A significant chunk of the population considers themselves lactose intolerant. From Peat, we know that lactose tolerance along with all digestive capability is based on how fast your metabolism is. From your symptoms you are quite hypothyroid, so I think it is highly unlikely that you are adequately digesting milk. Anything that you don't digest increases serotonin and endotoxin which really lowers your metabolism.

If you were only eating 1 teaspoon of salt/day for 2 months, then you are likely massively deficient in salt. Hypothyroid people can lose their salt very rapidly. I am not even hypothyroid anymore based on the temp/pulse, but if I consume less than 3-4 teaspoons of salt in a day(I always try for more than this) I can feel the negative effect on metabolism so you could have an even higher requirement than this. Ray Peat has written a whole article about salt, and how important it is for metabolism. A lot of your symptoms can be attributed to a sodium deficiency. Here is an excerpt:

"It has been known for many years that decreasing sodium intake causes the body to respond adaptively, increasing the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS). The activation of this system is recognized as a factor in hypertension, kidney disease, heart failure, fibrosis of the heart, and other problems. Sodium restriction also increases serotonin, activity of the sympathetic nervous system, and plasminogen activator inhibitor type-1 (PAI-1), which contributes to the accumulation of clots and is associated with breast and prostate cancer. The sympathetic nervous system becomes hyperactive in preeclampsia (Metsaars, et al., 2006)."

"One way of looking at those facts is to see that a lack of sodium slows metabolism, lowers carbon dioxide production, and creates inflammation, stress and degeneration. Rephrasing it, sodium stimulates energy metabolism, increases carbon dioxide production, and protects against inflammation and other maladaptive stress reactions." (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/salt.shtml)

Also, an excerpt from Ray Peat's article on water:

"Hypothyroidism is typically associated with increased prolactin secretion. Hypothyroid people typically retain water, while losing salt, so the hypothyroid state is analogous to the salmon that has returned to the river, and to the mice that drink too much salt-free water."

"The typical hypothyroid person loses salt rapidly in the urine (and probably in the sweat, too, though that is usually diagnosed as cystic fibrosis), and retains water, diluting the urine less than normal. The reduced production of carbon dioxide, with increased susceptibility to producing lactate and ammonium, causes the cells to be more alkaline than normal, increasing their affinity for water. The rise of estrogen that usually accompanies hypothyroidism also increases intracellular pH, loss of sodium, and over-hydration of the blood."

"If the basic problem in hypothyroidism is the deficient production of carbon dioxide causing excessive loss of salt and retention of water, resulting in hypo-osmotic body fluids, then we would expect people at high altitude to have better retention of salt, more loss of water, and more hypertonic body fluids. That has been observed in many studies. The increased rate of metabolism at altitude would be consistent with the relatively active "catabolism" of the slightly hyperosmotic condition." (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml)

Lastly, I see you are not eating any fiber. Fiber can really help your liver when your metabolism is still too slow which means your liver probably will be somewhat overloaded. I advise finding a fiber you tolerate and experimenting with the dosage. I recommend trying 5 carrots/day for a few days and see if your energy or metabolism improves.

 

[Peata]

post 102873

I bought a new BG meter and have been reading in the mid 90's.

Eating enough food is VERY hard for me, and I am not sure shoving food in me, which makes me bloated and crampy is good. Yeah? When I mentioned to RP that I was trying to eat more, and getting crampy, his reply was "Are you hungry when you eat more"?

And again, no matter what combos, no food/liquid or anything has ever gave me temporary relief.

Thanks for the help, and I am looking for any more input you may have. I'm all open ears right now.

No food should cause bloating or cramping. If a food is doing this then you are not digesting it and it is causing more harm than good. If you are tolerating a food, then after you consume it your stomach will not feel any different than before. You should not be able to feel anything sitting in your stomach, no noises should be made, your stomach should feel just as empty as it was before you ate, the only difference is you should no longer be hungry.

Again, I would advise you to stop drinking milk, and to really pay attention to how you respond if you choose to consume oysters, liver, or plain sugar. A significant chunk of the population considers themselves lactose intolerant. From Peat, we know that lactose tolerance along with all digestive capability is based on how fast your metabolism is. From your symptoms you are quite hypothyroid, so I think it is highly unlikely that you are adequately digesting milk. Anything that you don't digest increases serotonin and endotoxin which really lowers your metabolism.

If you were only eating 1/4 teaspoon of salt for 2 months, then you are likely massively deficient in salt. Ray Peat has written a whole article about salt, and how important it is for metabolism. A lot of your symptoms can be attributed to a sodium deficiency. Here is an excerpt:

"It has been known for many years that decreasing sodium intake causes the body to respond adaptively, increasing the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS). The activation of this system is recognized as a factor in hypertension, kidney disease, heart failure, fibrosis of the heart, and other problems. Sodium restriction also increases serotonin, activity of the sympathetic nervous system, and plasminogen activator inhibitor type-1 (PAI-1), which contributes to the accumulation of clots and is associated with breast and prostate cancer. The sympathetic nervous system becomes hyperactive in preeclampsia (Metsaars, et al., 2006)."

"One way of looking at those facts is to see that a lack of sodium slows metabolism, lowers carbon dioxide production, and creates inflammation, stress and degeneration. Rephrasing it, sodium stimulates energy metabolism, increases carbon dioxide production, and protects against inflammation and other maladaptive stress reactions." (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/salt.shtml)

Also, I see you are not eating any fiber. Fiber can really help your liver when your metabolism is still too slow which means your liver probably will be somewhat overloaded. I advise finding a fiber you tolerate and experimenting with the dosage. I recommend trying 5 carrots/day for a few days and see if your energy or metabolism improves.

Just wanted to say, that's good info for me too, Sea. Thanks for posting.

 

[iLoveSugar]

No food should cause bloating or cramping. If a food is doing this then you are not digesting it and it is causing more harm than good. If you are tolerating a food, then after you consume it your stomach will not feel any different than before. You should not be able to feel anything sitting in your stomach, no noises should be made, your stomach should feel just as empty as it was before you ate, the only difference is you should no longer be hungry.

Again, I would advise you to stop drinking milk, and to really pay attention to how you respond if you choose to consume oysters, liver, or plain sugar. A significant chunk of the population considers themselves lactose intolerant. From Peat, we know that lactose tolerance along with all digestive capability is based on how fast your metabolism is. From your symptoms you are quite hypothyroid, so I think it is highly unlikely that you are adequately digesting milk. Anything that you don't digest increases serotonin and endotoxin which really lowers your metabolism.

If you were only eating 1 teaspoon of salt/day for 2 months, then you are likely massively deficient in salt. Hypothyroid people can lose their salt very rapidly. I am not even hypothyroid anymore based on the temp/pulse, but if I consume less than 3-4 teaspoons of salt in a day(I always try for more than this) I can feel the negative effect on metabolism so you could have an even higher requirement than this. Ray Peat has written a whole article about salt, and how important it is for metabolism. A lot of your symptoms can be attributed to a sodium deficiency. Here is an excerpt:

"It has been known for many years that decreasing sodium intake causes the body to respond adaptively, increasing the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS). The activation of this system is recognized as a factor in hypertension, kidney disease, heart failure, fibrosis of the heart, and other problems. Sodium restriction also increases serotonin, activity of the sympathetic nervous system, and plasminogen activator inhibitor type-1 (PAI-1), which contributes to the accumulation of clots and is associated with breast and prostate cancer. The sympathetic nervous system becomes hyperactive in preeclampsia (Metsaars, et al., 2006)."

"One way of looking at those facts is to see that a lack of sodium slows metabolism, lowers carbon dioxide production, and creates inflammation, stress and degeneration. Rephrasing it, sodium stimulates energy metabolism, increases carbon dioxide production, and protects against inflammation and other maladaptive stress reactions." (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/salt.shtml)

Also, an excerpt from Ray Peat's article on water:

"Hypothyroidism is typically associated with increased prolactin secretion. Hypothyroid people typically retain water, while losing salt, so the hypothyroid state is analogous to the salmon that has returned to the river, and to the mice that drink too much salt-free water."

"The typical hypothyroid person loses salt rapidly in the urine (and probably in the sweat, too, though that is usually diagnosed as cystic fibrosis), and retains water, diluting the urine less than normal. The reduced production of carbon dioxide, with increased susceptibility to producing lactate and ammonium, causes the cells to be more alkaline than normal, increasing their affinity for water. The rise of estrogen that usually accompanies hypothyroidism also increases intracellular pH, loss of sodium, and over-hydration of the blood."

"If the basic problem in hypothyroidism is the deficient production of carbon dioxide causing excessive loss of salt and retention of water, resulting in hypo-osmotic body fluids, then we would expect people at high altitude to have better retention of salt, more loss of water, and more hypertonic body fluids. That has been observed in many studies. The increased rate of metabolism at altitude would be consistent with the relatively active "catabolism" of the slightly hyperosmotic condition." (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml)

Lastly, I see you are not eating any fiber. Fiber can really help your liver when your metabolism is still too slow which means your liver probably will be somewhat overloaded. I advise finding a fiber you tolerate and experimenting with the dosage. I recommend trying 5 carrots/day for a few days and see if your energy or metabolism improves.

Thank you for all that. A few things:

How can I replace milk? I seem to have a very hard time covering everything I need. And it seems like EVERYTHING literally just sits in my stomach. I don't know of any food that doesn't. If cutting milk, what should most of my go-to stuff be for the day?

Salt- this is an awful subject for me. I never used it growing up, and still hate it. I try supplementing with it just to get it in, and it bites me. I did half tsp today with water and got extremely nauseated. It was bad. Salting my food is even worse. I have to gag the entire time eating it.

 

[iLoveSugar]

I'll add that I have had many tests that show my electrolytes, and all are good in the middle of range, potassium, sodium, etc.

 

[Blossom]

post 102933 I'll add that I have had many tests that show my electrolytes, and all are good in the middle of range, potassium, sodium, etc.

When I started consciously trying to increase my salt intake I would put about a pea sized amount in the palm of my hand and let it dissolve in my mouth and then chase it down with some liquid like juice or Coca-Cola. I would do that about every hour or two while awake apart from mealtimes. I made myself vomit once by taking too much at once and not letting it dissolve all the way.

Your sodium lab results can come back normal yet you could still benefit from increasing your sodium intake. Our bodies have compensatory mechanisms such as aldosterone to help retain sodium when we aren't getting much from our diet. I don't know the intricate details but I know from a Peat perspective it's not optimal.

I would be dizzy and pass out regularly in my twenties when I was eating an all whole foods made from scratch diet and not salting my food to taste. Since I never ate any processed food or added salt to anything I'm sure I wasn't getting enough sodium yet according to my blood work my sodium was fine. I never had the dizziness and passing out issue after I started using salt.

 

[iLoveSugar]

Very interesting Blossom. Did it take some time for things to regulate? I have done about a week or two of high salt, didn't notice much, but maybe I need to do it longer to experience results?