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Bitcoin as opt out money, defensive technology.

nigma

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Uh, no. It's not the same. If all gold stopped being mined tomorrow, gold that you hold in your hand wouldn't suddenly go to zero. It would likely go up in value.

However, if Bitcoin Mining stops...... It's done. There is no value, because there is no way to transact. This is the difference between "Money of Account" and "Money of Exchange."

Disagree, bitcoin mining will stop one day (year 2140 actually), it is expected that tx fee reward will replace the incentive for miners to mine. There are thousands of transactions everyday, currently the average is $1T of value everyday.

Bitcoin is currently believed by a large group to be a store of value, it is also a medium of exchange, and at the moment only in some isolated cases a unit of account. I'm not sure if these terms overlap with yours. Bitcoin as a unit of account, meaning things being priced in bitcoin, while limited today, will continue to grow. But even if this did not happen, bitcoin would still have value today as a store of value, just like gold. Gold has monetary value even though you can't buy a burger for a certain # of ounces of gold.

But you aren't "trading" anything of value. It's digital entries in a ledger. It requires "work," but so does banking, printing money, and other accounting functions.

And plenty of exchanges are willing to take unbacked, fiat dollars in exchange for Bitcoin. So much for this trading "something of value." This is the same thing that give Federal Reserve Notes value. I can take those to the store, and buy food or whatever.

It's not "value for value" like exchanging a gold piece for suit, where the gold buys the suit, and the suit buys the gold. But with both FRNs and Bitcoin, you are simply "discharging debt."

Printing money out of nothing is in no way comparable to mining bitcoin by proof-of-work.

All value is subjective, thats how a market works. You think something has more value than the money you pay for it, the otherside thinks the opposite, they think the money has more value, they are both correct because they each have a unique circumstance. There is no objective value, Austrian economics 101.


Lol, I don't think you really understand what a "Free Market" is. How, exactly, can it be a "Free Market" when Governments can push the price around with legislation, rules, or threats thereof?

Of course there is no perfect free market, there are only degrees.

Maybe it's not "The Market Learning," but a change in the value of something. When Amazon dropped from $114 to $7 in 2001, it was NOT the same company it is today. They sold books. Annnnnnnd...... that's pretty much it. They were a tiny retailer. Now, they are obviously massive.

But, if they were "Mis Valued" in the past, what makes you think the valuation in the present is any better?

Again, there is only subjective value. I believe bitcoin could be valued much higher than it is today, somewhere around $5 million per coin. So I won't sell below that, unless my life circumstances force me to. But otherwise of course I understand I could be wrong and so I will loose my purchasing power if I am. But I am okay with that, thats how a market works.
 

tankasnowgod

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Disagree, bitcoin mining will stop one day (year 2140 actually), it is expected that tx fee reward will replace the incentive for miners to mine. There are thousands of transactions everyday, currently the average is $1T of value everyday.
Mining or not, it still requires a functional network to transact. If the network goes away, so does all of Bitcoin's value. In this sense, it is comparable to FRNs, as it does need an outside third party for transactions to complete. Gold, as a counterexample, has no such requirements.

I don't think Bitcoin's network is going away any time soon, but it is something to keep in mind.
Bitcoin is currently believed by a large group to be a store of value, it is also a medium of exchange, and at the moment only in some isolated cases a unit of account. I'm not sure if these terms overlap with yours. Bitcoin as a unit of account, meaning things being priced in bitcoin, while limited today, will continue to grow. But even if this did not happen, bitcoin would still have value today as a store of value, just like gold. Gold has monetary value even though you can't buy a burger for a certain # of ounces of gold.
Somewhat like gold, but more like Federal Reserve Notes. Actually, Berkshire Hathaway stock is a better example.
Printing money out of nothing is in no way comparable to mining bitcoin by proof-of-work.
And mining bitcoin is in no way comparable to mining gold. It's math equations on computers vs. physical labor.

Still, printing money, accounting, mining bitcoin, and mining gold are all "work." And "work" was the thing you offered up to back up Bitcoin's value.
All value is subjective, thats how a market works. You think something has more value than the money you pay for it, the otherside thinks the opposite, they think the money has more value, they are both correct because they each have a unique circumstance. There is no objective value, Austrian economics 101.
But again, Bitcoin and FRNs are different than gold. Gold can be turned into a watch, jewelry, be a part of electronics, turned into flakes and put into food and alcohol items, and so forth. Bitcoin and FRNs, not really (well, I guess you can used FRNs like paper). There is some value in the gold itself, even if it trades on perceived value.

Bitcoin and FRNs, the only value they have is as a surrogate for something else.
Again, there is only subjective value. I believe bitcoin could be valued much higher than it is today, somewhere around $5 million per coin.
I don't know about 5 Million per coin, but I also think it will rise in value, in the short term, and also the longer term. I don't think it will be anything like a straight line. Markets never are, and BTC sure hasn't been. If you are HODLing to 5 Million, great, hope it works out for you.
 

nigma

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Somewhat like gold, but more like Federal Reserve Notes. Actually, Berkshire Hathaway stock is a better example.
Bitcoin is far superior to FRN. Anyone from the public can audit the amount of bitcoin currently in existence with a few hundred dollars of hardware. Same cannot be said for any central bank fiat. They decide to publish (or not to) the total supply of notes/debt, but this has to be trusted. With bitcoin, multiple independent parties can audit the supply and get the exact same number. This is such a game changer, truly disruptive to clearing houses and other financial services.

The other critical point is that bitcoin cannot be debased, if it were not for this I would have zero interest in bitcoin. This is why I have zero interest in any other 'crypto', they all have a person or group of persons who can change the codebase, monetary policy. A central bank can print as much notes/debt as they like, there is no comparison to bitcoin.

But again, Bitcoin and FRNs are different than gold. Gold can be turned into a watch, jewelry, be a part of electronics, turned into flakes and put into food and alcohol items, and so forth. Bitcoin and FRNs, not really (well, I guess you can used FRNs like paper). There is some value in the gold itself, even if it trades on perceived value.

Bitcoin and FRNs, the only value they have is as a surrogate for something else.

This is not a problem and is simply the function of money. This is why bitcoin is better than other monies like gold, which still have other uses besides monetary. Bitcoin is pure money. It is the 'energy money' Buckminster Fuller talked about.

Also, bitcoin allows for so many new opportunities which weren't possible before because of the limitations of gold and bank notes. For example, now it is possible to tap into stranded sources of energy. Usually where-ever electricity is produced needs to be close to population centers because of the loss of electricity when sent over wires. Bitcoin converts electricity straight into money, which can then be sent 100% intact to anywhere that can connect to the internet. This is just getting online now, see El Salvadors volcano bitcoin mining operations.

 

tankasnowgod

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Bitcoin is far superior to FRN. Anyone from the public can audit the amount of bitcoin currently in existence with a few hundred dollars of hardware. Same cannot be said for any central bank fiat. They decide to publish (or not to) the total supply of notes/debt, but this has to be trusted. With bitcoin, multiple independent parties can audit the supply and get the exact same number. This is such a game changer, truly disruptive to clearing houses and other financial services.
You are raising points that have nothing to do with what I compared it to. While it's still money of account, I agree, it is better in several ways than FRNs.
The other critical point is that bitcoin cannot be debased, if it were not for this I would have zero interest in bitcoin. This is why I have zero interest in any other 'crypto', they all have a person or group of persons who can change the codebase, monetary policy. A central bank can print as much notes/debt as they like, there is no comparison to bitcoin.
You sure about that?
This is not a problem and is simply the function of money. This is why bitcoin is better than other monies like gold, which still have other uses besides monetary. Bitcoin is pure money. It is the 'energy money' Buckminster Fuller talked about.
Well, if you think this is important, great. By this reasoning, bonds, promissory notes, and bills of exchange are also "pure money."
Also, bitcoin allows for so many new opportunities which weren't possible before because of the limitations of gold and bank notes.
Agree with this.
For example, now it is possible to tap into stranded sources of energy.
Wut?
Usually where-ever electricity is produced needs to be close to population centers because of the loss of electricity when sent over wires. Bitcoin converts electricity straight into money, which can then be sent 100% intact to anywhere that can connect to the internet.
But you can't "reconvert" that money into energy at the other end of the internet. Not unless you buy power from a power company, or have your own set of solar panels or a generator or something.
 

nigma

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You sure about that?
Its what I've spent most of my time on with bitcoin, trying to think of a way the 21M could be increased. If you can tell me a way, I hope to have already thought of it and can respond.
 

tankasnowgod

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Its what I've spent most of my time on with bitcoin, trying to think of a way the 21M could be increased. If you can tell me a way, I hope to have already thought of it and can respond.

You think increasing the total amount of coins is the only way to "debase" bitcoin?
 

Waynish

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It is the opposite. It is the most centralized currency technology ever. How many engineers and commit code to the central BTC repository? Is splitting a currency / making many currencies within a domain the same as printing more currency?
I think with a bit of study you'll find the answers are: ~3, and yes.
 

ddjd

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FDxfK_pWQAY_AJX
 

Lollipop2

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Disclaimer, I have not been involved with Bitcoin since it was $200 for one BTC. Gavin and Roger Ver are some giants. They would be hard to fool. I literally have no idea who CSW is and have not followed the story. Just putting a plug for those early giants in Bitcoin.
 

nigma

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You think increasing the total amount of coins is the only way to "debase" bitcoin?

Pretty much. Do you have another way?

It is the opposite. It is the most centralized currency technology ever. How many engineers and commit code to the central BTC repository?

there are quite a few more than 3 listed:



there are 100's and 1000's of bitcoin developers


Is splitting a currency / making many currencies within a domain the same as printing more currency?
I think with a bit of study you'll find the answers are: ~3, and yes.

the fact that there are over 12,000 forks or clones of bitcoin does not equal printing more money. It is the same argument as saying that because Australia creates bank notes that resemble USA notes in size, thickness of paper, etc., that more USA notes have been printed. Sorry, but this is not correct. No one would accept payment of a good priced in USD with AUD, unless they are very ignorant about money.
 

Waynish

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Pretty much. Do you have another way?



there are quite a few more than 3 listed:



there are 100's and 1000's of bitcoin developers




the fact that there are over 12,000 forks or clones of bitcoin does not equal printing more money. It is the same argument as saying that because Australia creates bank notes that resemble USA notes in size, thickness of paper, etc., that more USA notes have been printed. Sorry, but this is not correct. No one would accept payment of a good priced in USD with AUD, unless they are very ignorant about money.
What you posted only serves as evidence that you have no clue about software development. View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5riy1j/list_of_people_who_have_had_commit_access_to/
 

nigma

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Because the network is not controlled by satoshi, people can and did decide to go a different route regarding the number and distribution of nodes. This is a good thing as the more people participate the more decentralized the network is. People are free to fork off their own chain and run a bitcoin clone with whatever parameters they would like, but then they have to show others why its better, and ultimately the market decides as there is no coercion in bitcoin. CSW did so with BSV and good for him and the people who support him, but ultimately the market will decide what they want to use.

This podcast was released yesterday and was super informative. I have linked the time that the discussion centered around Satoshi, his brilliance and relevance.
View: https://youtu.be/FXvQcuIb5rU?t=1006
 

Atman

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Because the network is not controlled by satoshi, people can and did decide to go a different route regarding the number and distribution of nodes. This is a good thing as the more people participate the more decentralized the network is. People are free to fork off their own chain and run a bitcoin clone with whatever parameters they would like, but then they have to show others why its better, and ultimately the market decides as there is no coercion in bitcoin. CSW did so with BSV and good for him and the people who support him, but ultimately the market will decide what they want to use.

This podcast was released yesterday and was super informative. I have linked the time that the discussion centered around Satoshi, his brilliance and relevance.
View: https://youtu.be/FXvQcuIb5rU?t=1006
How can you be such an oldtime Ray Peat follower and at the same time unironically post a video of this pseudo-celeb-intellectual?
A showman who was proped up by mainstream media 4 years ago under the controlled opposition umbrella term "intellectual dark web" is your source on bitcoin?
This guy has over 4 million youtube subscribers! What kind of cutting edge information are you expecting to get there?
 

nigma

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How can you be such an oldtime Ray Peat follower and at the same time unironically post a video of this pseudo-celeb-intellectual?
A showman who was proped up by mainstream media 4 years ago under the controlled opposition umbrella term "intellectual dark web" is your source on bitcoin?
This guy has over 4 million youtube subscribers! What kind of cutting edge information are you expecting to get there?
I've got a lot of value from JP over the years. He is not my source on bitcoin, he is just at the learning stages. He is interviewing the author of the bitcoin standard, Saifedean Ammous.

How can you think CSW is satoshi?
 

Atman

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How can you think CSW is satoshi?
He has the character and knowledge of someone who could create something like bitcoin. He also has a vision that actually makes sense. No one in that space comes even close. In that regard, he is very similar to Ray.
 

Waynish

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"Decentralization" ;)))
 

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