Bitcoin as opt out money, defensive technology.

gaze

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Lollipop2

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no, evergrande is just a typical over leveraged chinese developer. the problem is many other chinese companies are in similar financial predicimanets, and tether is one of the largest holders of chinese commercial paper, which is basically they hold a ton of chinese debt. as more and more chinese companies default or go down, tether is at a high risk of being exposed in the contagion. if tether goes down, all of crypto falls
Fascinating. Thank you for explaining.
 
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nigma

nigma

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gaze

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honestly, those are horrible defenses of Tether. Basically trying to shove everything under the rug. Tether has the highest trading volume of any crypto in the world, yet one of those links tried to downplay its importance because its market cap is smaller than bitcoin. They say dont worry that they've never been audited, because its just a matter of no auditing company willing to work with them, which is not the reason why they haven't been audited. One of those links shared a story of Tether Bank Deltec saying Tether is backed by reserves as if that should ease peoples thoughts, I wonder why they didn't mention those reserves are Chinese commercial paper of companies which have a high chance of defaulting.

Like with all things, only time will tell, but anyone who looks into how Tether operates and claims any skepticism of it is simply "FUD" is too scared to take their head out of the sand and face a flawed reality.
 
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nigma

nigma

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no, evergrande is just a typical over leveraged chinese developer. the problem is many other chinese companies are in similar financial predicimanets, and tether is one of the largest holders of chinese commercial paper, which is basically they hold a ton of chinese debt. as more and more chinese companies default or go down, tether is at a high risk of being exposed in the contagion. if tether goes down, all of crypto falls
Can you elaborate on this, why do you think tether is so critical?
 

gaze

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Can you elaborate on this, why do you think tether is so critical?
i think it would drag it down for a variety of reasons, however it would probably take form in a massive liquidity crisis combined with pure panic all across the crypto space.

it wouldnt come close to ending crypto, but it would cause significant pain for a lot of people who are "all in" monetary wise during the fallout and transition away from fraud stablecoins.

Overall I like the story of Bitcoin, but I like its utility, not its current price and all the fraud that surrounds it with stablecoins. i don't think bitcoin should be viewed as an investment.
 
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nigma

nigma

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i think it would drag it down for a variety of reasons, however it would probably take form in a massive liquidity crisis combined with pure panic all across the crypto space.

I don't think it would come close to ending crypto, but it would cause significant pain for a lot of people who are "all in" money wise during the fallout and transition away from fraud stablecoins.

Overall I like the story of Bitcoin, but I like its utility, not its current price and all the fraud that surrounds it with stablecoins. i don't think bitcoin should be viewed as an investment.
re: Bitcoin as an investment. Bitcoin is just money, but as it is progressing through its monetization process, its "market cap" is obviously growing very fast and will continue to. Bitcoins price will continue to increase as more people understand it is the best savings technology ever invented and that it offers true private property to its holders (obviously if you keep on an exchange this doesn't apply to you).

99% of "crypto" is an affinity scam on what bitcoin has achieved. Most are trying to be the next bitcoin, with the incorrect thinking that bitcoin has finished development.
 

gaze

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re: Bitcoin as an investment. Bitcoin is just money, but as it is progressing through its monetization process, its "market cap" is obviously growing very fast and will continue to. Bitcoins price will continue to increase as more people understand it is the best savings technology ever invented and that it offers true private property to its holders (obviously if you keep on an exchange this doesn't apply to you).

99% of "crypto" is an affinity scam on what bitcoin has achieved. Most are trying to be the next bitcoin, with the incorrect thinking that bitcoin has finished development.
doesn't matter how good the story is or how valuable the technology is, anytime this amount of hype, speculation, leverage, confusion, and fraud is involved, it's time to take a step back.


 

jnklheimer

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I don't shill stuff because I would feel bad about people losing money, but anyone that wants to get intro crypto should look into Richard Heart's Hex token. It's too hard to explain and convince anyone, but hopefully I plant a seed and give someone the gift of wealth by mentioning it here.
 

michael94

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Ray Peat interested folk have usually taken responsibility of their own health.
Bitcoin interested folk likewise have taken responsibility of their own wealth/money.
If you want to gamble and make money on internet coin speculation that's one thing, but crypto is not an "opt out" of the system. Maybe Monero. But even that has its limits. I dont think you understand the nature of the problems we're facing/going to be facing.
 
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nigma

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I don't shill stuff because I would feel bad about people losing money, but anyone that wants to get intro crypto should look into Richard Heart's Hex token. It's too hard to explain and convince anyone, but hopefully I plant a seed and give someone the gift of wealth by mentioning it here.
Richard Heart's HEX token seems like a scam to me, people have to lock in their tokens for long periods of time. Been following him from a distance since 2017. Just saying what I think.
 
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nigma

nigma

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If you want to gamble and make money on internet coin speculation that's one thing, but crypto is not an "opt out" of the system. Maybe Monero. But even that has its limits. I dont think you understand the nature of the problems we're facing/going to be facing.
I find it interesting that people see bitcoin as gambling, I guess the "crypto" world has given it a bad name. Bitcoiners I know are not traders or speculators, they are savers, people who simply want to preserve their wealth. Are you not all aware how much of the USD was printed in the last 2 years? Thats your wealth disappearing. This cannot happen with bitcoin, that is the innovation.
 

mariantos

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I find it interesting that people see bitcoin as gambling, I guess the "crypto" world has given it a bad name. Bitcoiners I know are not traders or speculators, they are savers, people who simply want to preserve their wealth. Are you not all aware how much of the USD was printed in the last 2 years? Thats your wealth disappearing. This cannot happen with bitcoin, that is the innovation.


I read this thread with great pleasure!

My opinion is that digital currencies will be the easiest to control, by those who want to be in control, obviously.

Man gradually came, being forced, from the use of gold and silver even copper, that is, the true value, to paper, later to plastic and more recently to "nothing". I don't want to shatter the dreams of the followers of this type of "currency", but it makes sense, gold and silver can be recovered anytime, anyway, even if your house burns incessantly and these metals melt.

Banknotes, these cheap things that have (gold plating) of course, burn, get wet, break easily, are just means of exchange and not really money, something really valuable. The papers were not enough and they switched to plastic, to something made of oil, something miserable in essence, even that was not enough, it gradually moved to "simple numbers" digitally generated from playing with 1 and 0.

It is a great pity that we have been indoctrinated to place great value on things that are worthless, and to throw away the truly valuable things in the trash.

Therefore, I consider digital "currency" not only the most worthless, but also the most insecure way to exchange at the same time! I have a hunch that in the event of a major disaster, a person can buy something to eat with gold or silver, while the digital "currency" will be guaranteed out of use, thanks to those mentioned above.

I understand your point of view regarding banknotes, but I can't understand where you get your security in terms of digital "currency", what gives you so much guarantee?

What makes you believe that something that is not palpable cannot be used against you and cannot disappear overnight?
 

michael94

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Man gradually came, being forced, from the use of gold and silver even copper, that is, the true value, to paper, later to plastic and more recently to "nothing". I don't want to shatter the dreams of the followers of this type of "currency", but it makes sense, gold and silver can be recovered anytime, anyway, even if your house burns incessantly and these metals melt.

Banknotes, these cheap things that have (gold plating) of course, burn, get wet, break easily, are just means of exchange and not really money, something really valuable. The papers were not enough and they switched to plastic, to something made of oil, something miserable in essence, even that was not enough, it gradually moved to "simple numbers" digitally generated from playing with 1 and 0.

It is a great pity that we have been indoctrinated to place great value on things that are worthless, and to throw away the truly valuable things in the trash.
The fact that paper money can easily be burnt and that silver and Gold are not easily destroyed is not an argument for which should be money. Someone can burn down and kill your entire neighborhood. Does that make it worthless? You can salt the earth so that crops no longer grow, does that mean the land was worthless?

Money is a token. How the token is managed is what determines whether it is a good form of money. Real Wealth is what you plan to exchange the token for. Land, Food, health of your community, it's skills and ability to work, natural resources, etc. Fiat, yes "paper money", can be superior to Silver and Gold if it is used properly. Or it can be worse.

Anyone who tries to push that only Gold and Silver are suitable as Money is attempting to remove the human and living element from Money so that it can be invulnerable, but that's a complete understanding of what Money is.

Tread carefully among Goldbugs, Blood is worth more than Gold. They will tell you otherwise in roundabout ways.
 
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nigma

nigma

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I read this thread with great pleasure!

My opinion is that digital currencies will be the easiest to control, by those who want to be in control, obviously.

Man gradually came, being forced, from the use of gold and silver even copper, that is, the true value, to paper, later to plastic and more recently to "nothing". I don't want to shatter the dreams of the followers of this type of "currency", but it makes sense, gold and silver can be recovered anytime, anyway, even if your house burns incessantly and these metals melt.

Banknotes, these cheap things that have (gold plating) of course, burn, get wet, break easily, are just means of exchange and not really money, something really valuable. The papers were not enough and they switched to plastic, to something made of oil, something miserable in essence, even that was not enough, it gradually moved to "simple numbers" digitally generated from playing with 1 and 0.

It is a great pity that we have been indoctrinated to place great value on things that are worthless, and to throw away the truly valuable things in the trash.

Therefore, I consider digital "currency" not only the most worthless, but also the most insecure way to exchange at the same time! I have a hunch that in the event of a major disaster, a person can buy something to eat with gold or silver, while the digital "currency" will be guaranteed out of use, thanks to those mentioned above.

I understand your point of view regarding banknotes, but I can't understand where you get your security in terms of digital "currency", what gives you so much guarantee?

What makes you believe that something that is not palpable cannot be used against you and cannot disappear overnight?
I used to be a gold bug, people think gold and silver have intrinsic value, but they do not, they are just lumps of metal. It is only people and culture that place value in to them, why do they do this? Studying the history of gold will teach someone that it became the best money because of a certain properties, i.e. it is rare, and takes a lot of work to produce by mining, and can't be easily counterfeited, stores value over time, etc. Bitcoin has come along and surpassed these properties. The price of bitcoin rising continuously indicates more of the worlds population has understood it is the new best money.

The reason I believe it cannot disappear overnight is because I understand what other bitcoin holders, miners, and other players in the game are thinking and motivated by. They all have incentives to continue to keep bitcoin alive. The whole point is that it is truly decentralized and therefore not susceptible to a centralized attack, e.g. government. People should understand that bitcoin was designed to be attacked by various parties, this has happened many times in the past (e.g. block-size wars in 2017, china ban x100, "etherium is the new bitcoin", Craig Wright "I am the real satoshi") yet it lives on and its value continues to rise.

In the event of a natural disaster, it is usually a localised event and so internet and electricity is down for a time, but then eventually restored. Bitcoin is savings technology and does not require the internet in local region to retain its value. I'm not betting on a world wide disaster. If that were to happen, sure gold might be better, but at that point most of the worlds population would perish and there would be much bigger problems than what kind of money to use, people would just use whatever works, but I'm not planning for that scenario and neither do most people.

Also, when people say government will shut it down, do they understand that China banned bitcoin, but this did not result in bitcoin disappearing, why would the US government has any better impact than China?
 
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