Bioenergetic View Of Autoimmunity: Struggling To Understand Cortisol's Action

judi

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@haidut or anybody

Hi


I have re-listened to A Bioenergetic View Of Autoimmunity [Generative Energy #12] and I'm still struggling to understand something…


What I'm getting from Peat and Haidut is the following:


"Autoimmune" conditions result from elevated estrogen, therefore chronically elevated cortisol / prolactin etc., leading to tissue breakdown, presumably because of the cortisol's action. Because of the breakdown of the tissue, there is debris, and that's why the immune system is cranked up to clean up this debris so we don't die of septicemia. This is where people get the symptoms of inflammation and pain, presumably because the body is "reacting" to the debris, yes?


So here is where I'm struggling: If somebody with, say, rheumatoid arthritis is experiencing pain and swelling and they take steroids (e.g. hydrocortisone/prednisone) or fish oils, why do they experience relief from their inflammation and swelling? If steroids/fish oils "turn the immune system off", then presumably the debris stops getting cleared up, no? Plus wouldn't the exogenous corticosteroids be also causing further breakdown of tissue, with no immune system to clear it up?


1) why don't they get septicemia if the debris is not getting cleared up?


2) if exogenous steroids turn the immune system off, how can autoimmune conditions be caused by excess cortisol (leading to breakdown of tissue, resulting debris, resulting in overactive immune system)?




What am I missing? Is endogenous cortisol's action somehow different to exogenous cortisone action?




Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, I've searched the forum and haven't found the answer.




Thanks


Judi




 

BigChad

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Joined
Jun 28, 2019
Messages
747
@haidut or anybody

Hi


I have re-listened to A Bioenergetic View Of Autoimmunity [Generative Energy #12] and I'm still struggling to understand something…


What I'm getting from Peat and Haidut is the following:


"Autoimmune" conditions result from elevated estrogen, therefore chronically elevated cortisol / prolactin etc., leading to tissue breakdown, presumably because of the cortisol's action. Because of the breakdown of the tissue, there is debris, and that's why the immune system is cranked up to clean up this debris so we don't die of septicemia. This is where people get the symptoms of inflammation and pain, presumably because the body is "reacting" to the debris, yes?


So here is where I'm struggling: If somebody with, say, rheumatoid arthritis is experiencing pain and swelling and they take steroids (e.g. hydrocortisone/prednisone) or fish oils, why do they experience relief from their inflammation and swelling? If steroids/fish oils "turn the immune system off", then presumably the debris stops getting cleared up, no? Plus wouldn't the exogenous corticosteroids be also causing further breakdown of tissue, with no immune system to clear it up?


1) why don't they get septicemia if the debris is not getting cleared up?


2) if exogenous steroids turn the immune system off, how can autoimmune conditions be caused by excess cortisol (leading to breakdown of tissue, resulting debris, resulting in overactive immune system)?




What am I missing? Is endogenous cortisol's action somehow different to exogenous cortisone action?




Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, I've searched the forum and haven't found the answer.




Thanks


Judi





How do you explain things like high iodine intake, or viruses like Epstein barr triggering or starting autoimmunity? Do they increase estrogen or prolactin? Imo with iodine induced autoimmunity for example, you go into hypothyroidism first and that then causes the prolactin and estrogen elevation. High estrogen and prolactin seem to be a potential cause or contributor to hypothyroidism but they also seem to be a result. Hypothyroidism seems to have many potential causes and factors same with other autoimmune diseases i think. Or maybe the iodine, too much iron, or viruses in themselves cause high estrogen which then causes further disease
 
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judi

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Can anyone explain how autoimmune symptoms can come about as a result of excess cortisol but can also be alleviated with cortisol, please?

Thanks
Judi
 

rob

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@judi Off the top of my head, two quick things:

1) By suppressing the immune system, psychological stress limits the body's ability to deal with pathogens. If such stress persists then, along with other adverse factors, this might lead to continuous low-grade inflammation.

However, if a sufficiently high dose of corticosteriods is given then the immune system could be further suppressed, knocking out lingering inflammation. Problem is: the steroids don't solve anything. They just give the patient temporary relief by stopping the body from legitimately trying (yet failing) to get rid of a pathogen. More than that, they could give any pathogen a window of opportunity to grow and profilerate further causing worse issues down the line.

2) Psychological stress causes CRH to be released from the hypothalamus. CRH activates the HPA axis and cortisol rises to mobilise energy resources. As part of a negative feedback loop, the rise in cortisol downregulates CRH and, thus, HPA-axis stimulation.

I think CRH is an interesting hormone to consider in ‘autoimmune’ disease. Having Crohn's disease (IBD) myself, I'm aware of studies showing how CRH bonds to receptors on mast cells in the intestines causing an acute rise in intestinal permeability. In IBD, intestinal permeability and subsequent translocation of luminal bacteria and food antigens could be a big factor in tissue-related inflammation - together with specific mitochondrial/bioenergtic defects in my opinion. However, more broadly, intestinal permeability has been discussed as a factor in a range of autoimmune diseases.

I'm assuming by taking corticosteroids you'll not only bypass the above CRH mechanism but block its production in the first place, as per the aforementioned negative feedback loop.
 
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judi

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Thanks, Rob, all valid points but I don't think it answers my original two questions.

@haidut
perhaps you could explain, please?

I'm trying to help somebody with rheumatic arthritis (most probably) felt fabulous on 5mg prednisolone/day for 3 weeks and whose symptoms have come back with vengeance after stopping the prednisolone and I can't actually explain the mechanism, even though I previously thought I'd understood it.

any insight would be much appreciated, thanks
 

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