Big Drop In Body Temperature While Walking

[Doc Sandoz]

I am 66 years old and discovered Ray Peat two months ago. Since then I've been off PUFA, eating coconut oil, drank my last Diet Coke and am generally trying to follow a more or less Ray Peat food regime. I suspect I have low thyroid. Temperature never gets above 98, most often its around 97.4.

Today I had a strange new experience while walking. I suddenly started sweating profusely, mostly from the head and shoulders, while at the same time feeling light-headed, almost dizzy and nearly needed to sit down but then the feeling eased a bit. When I got home my temperature was 93.6. Over the course of an hour and after some OJ, it has come back up, now 96.6.

Background: Yesterday I took for the first time in years Vit D, a tiny dose (10 mcg), because it had caused tremendous stress and anxiety when I tried it before. Even this low dose did the same thing again lasting into today. Then I found on this forum that such a reaction could be a sign of low Mg, so I took 400 mg of that and voila, anxiety gone in minutes. Later, I bagged my hand - that has a mild case of psoriasis - in a bath of pure CO2 for an hour. I had a small dose of coconut oil at dinner. Then the walk.

The drop in body temperature and sweating almost seems like hypoglycemia, as I have a friend that has it and have seen the results. But I have never in my life been hypoglycemic and I had eaten just two hours before. Then I thought maybe this was caused by the suspected thyroid deficiency, but I have not been able to find a similar experience on the forum or described in Ray's articles, interviews etc. I am wondering if someone has had these symptoms as a sign of hypothyroidism. Any thoughts that might help with diagnosis are most welcome.

 

[marcar72]

The drop in body temperature and sweating almost seems like hypoglycemia, as I have a friend that has it and have seen the results. But I have never in my life been hypoglycemic and I had eaten just two hours before. Then I thought maybe this was caused by the suspected thyroid deficiency, but I have not been able to find a similar experience on the forum or described in Ray's articles, interviews etc.

Here's a short study/article that may shed some light on your situation. Are you getting enough copper in your diet would be the take away question to consider.

Body temperature and thyroid hormone metabolism of copper-deficient rats - ScienceDirect

 

[gaze]

How much calcium are you eating? Low dietary calcium can cause anxiety from vit D supplements. also you were smart to have the OJ when your temp crashed, any time you suspect low blood sugar or temps, just have some Oj and salt. Keeping blood sugars up will be very important

 

[Energizer]

You're in a weakened physiological state. Anything perceived as stress can contribute to lowering your thyroid function. Sub-aerobic exercise, even walking itself could theoretically lower the production of the active thyroid hormone (T3) for someone such as yourself who already has very low thyroid function.

“I’m not sure who introduced the term “aerobic” to describe the state of anaerobic metabolism that develops during stressful exercise, but it has had many harmful repercussions. In experiments, T3 production is stopped very quickly by even “sub-aerobic” exercise, probably because of the combination of a decrease of blood glucose and an increase in free fatty acids. In a healthy person, rest will tend to restore the normal level of T3, but there is evidence that even very good athletes remain in a hypothyroid state even at rest. A chronic increase of lactic acid and cortisol indicates that something is wrong. The “slender muscles” of endurance runners are signs of a catabolic state, that has been demonstrated even in the heart muscle. A slow heart beat very strongly suggests hypothyroidism. Hypothyroid people, who are likely to produce lactic acid even at rest, are especially susceptible to the harmful effects of “aerobic” exercise. The good effect some people feel from exercise is probably the result of raising the body temperature; a warm bath will do the same for people with low body temperature.”

Ray Peat, PhD: Quotes Relating to Exercise

 

[Doc Sandoz]

Thanks for the replies, I started eating smoked oysters several weeks ago, a couple tins per week, so should be stocking up on Cu. I bought Ca carbonate supps, having read of its importance in numerous Peat articles, but had not yet taken any as of yesterday. Starting that today. The sweating and light-headed symptoms during mild exercise were totally new to me. From the rehabilitating effect of the OJ, it seems blood sugar had become an issue for the first time in my life.

Clearly I have low thyroid, although lacking most of the classic symptoms. Yesterday's symptoms were indeed most likely caused by a drop in glucose. "T3 production is stopped very quickly by even “sub-aerobic” exercise, probably because of the combination of a decrease of blood glucose and an increase in free fatty acids." But why never before? I'm tempted to speculate something recent about doing the Ray Peat thing - Vit D supplement, coconut oil, first time doing CO2 skin immersion? - contributed to the situation.

One thought that occurred was the coconut oil - which always revs me up to the point I require paper bag-breathing, plus the recent saturation with CO2 and perhaps the Vit D, somehow upped cellular oxidative metabolism, quickly using up stored glycogen, hence the hypoglycemic symptoms. The brain uses glucose not fatty acids, so running out of glycogen may account for the light-headed feeling, not sure about the head and neck sweating. Second, perhaps, as stated by Ray, T3 production also stopped when glucose ran low, putting an abrupt halt to oxidation, shifting metabolism to glycolysis. In short, I upped my horsepower for a short time and then having quickly used up the fuel was running on fumes.

My waking temp this morning was the usual 97.4, so it seems pretty clear thyroid supplementation is needed. Thinking of Haidut's T3/T4 formula. Anyone have advice on this rather tricky matter of getting good thyroid since the demise of Armour's dependable stuff?

 

[Energizer]

Thanks for the replies, I started eating smoked oysters several weeks ago, a couple tins per week, so should be stocking up on Cu. I bought Ca carbonate supps, having read of its importance in numerous Peat articles, but had not yet taken any as of yesterday. Starting that today. The sweating and light-headed symptoms during mild exercise were totally new to me. From the rehabilitating effect of the OJ, it seems blood sugar had become an issue for the first time in my life.

Clearly I have low thyroid, although lacking most of the classic symptoms. Yesterday's symptoms were indeed most likely caused by a drop in glucose. "T3 production is stopped very quickly by even “sub-aerobic” exercise, probably because of the combination of a decrease of blood glucose and an increase in free fatty acids." But why never before? I'm tempted to speculate something recent about doing the Ray Peat thing - Vit D supplement, coconut oil, first time doing CO2 skin immersion? - contributed to the situation.

One thought that occurred was the coconut oil - which always revs me up to the point I require paper bag-breathing, plus the recent saturation with CO2 and perhaps the Vit D, somehow upped cellular oxidative metabolism, quickly using up stored glycogen, hence the hypoglycemic symptoms. The brain uses glucose not fatty acids, so running out of glycogen may account for the light-headed feeling, not sure about the head and neck sweating. Second, perhaps, as stated by Ray, T3 production also stopped when glucose ran low, putting an abrupt halt to oxidation, shifting metabolism to glycolysis. In short, I upped my horsepower for a short time and then having quickly used up the fuel was running on fumes.

My waking temp this morning was the usual 97.4, so it seems pretty clear thyroid supplementation is needed. Thinking of Haidut's T3/T4 formula. Anyone have advice on this rather tricky matter of getting good thyroid since the demise of Armour's dependable stuff?

Brands/Dosage
The working thyroid gland produces about the equivalent of 4 grains of desiccated thyroid per day, and that is about 70% thyroxine, T4, which allows the liver to make as much of the active T3 hormone as needed (if it is well nourished, and not blocked by PUFA or estrogen or other inhibitor). So taking that amount makes up for what your gland would be producing; by suppressing TSH, which stimulates the growth and activity of the thyroid, it also protects against the recurrence of cancer if it wasn't all removed (some types of cancer were treated just by supplementing thyroid, without surgery). Since the desiccated thyroid is made available by being digested, it's best to divide the day's dose, with some at each meal and at bedtime, so that the amount of active hormone entering the blood isn't too high at any time.

It's important to remember that it's cumulative, and the effect of any daily dose increases with time, and is affected by many things, so it's important to keep a chart [of temperature and pulse], watching for changes during a period of about two weeks.

An eighth of a tablet of either [Cynoplus/Cynomel] is a good starting dose. The difference is that T3 has a short half-life, and so can be repeated more often, while watching the pulse rate, so it's possible to get a quicker response.

Sensitivities and requirements vary widely. I've known people who temporarily needed 500 mg of Armour even in the summer, but usually the summer requirement is a fourth of the winter requirement. For some people, 15 mg of Armour was enough, and for some 1 mcg of Cytomel was an effective dose.

[Type 1 diabetic] The cynoplus tablets can be divided into pieces so that each dose of T3 is similar to the amount you were taking in cytomel. In diabetes, when cells aren't getting enough glucose, T4 can't be converted to the active T3, and so it can build up in the body to levels that interfere with metabolism, but the advantage of a combination is that T4 inhibits TSH, and TSH is responsible for many of the symptoms.

[WINTER RECOVERY] The end of winter is the worst time, because of the cumulative stress injury. Small amounts of T3, just 2 to 4 mcg at a time, along with good nutrition, including plenty of calcium (e.g., two quarts of milk), helps to recover from winter.

T3 has a short half-life in the body, and by adding small amounts of it you could feel quickly whether it was having the right effects. I don't know how reliable the Erfa is in composition. Mood is a good indicator, and the temperature of the toes and fingers usually changes quickly with thyroid changes.

The liver has to convert T4 to T3 for it to be effective. It needs glucose and selenium to make the conversion. Adequate protein, at least 80 grams per day, is necessary. Sea food, once a week will provide selenium, two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice would provide many of the other essential nutrients. Taking T4 at bedtime sometimes is helpful. Most people feel best on a ratio of T4:T3 of 4:1 or less. Checking the relaxation rate of the Achilles reflex is a quick way to check the effect of the thyroid on your nerves and muscles; the relaxation should be instantaneous, loose and floppy.

Are there any combination products, such as Thyrolar or Cynoplus, that you can get in Spain? It's good to start with a small amount, such as 5 mcg of T3 twice a day, while watching for changes in your pulse rate, temperature, and ability to sleep. Half a grain of Armour, or about 30 mcg of T4 and 7.5 mcg of T3, is traditionally a common starting dose; it should be taken with a meal, so that it absorbs slowly. Taking a very small amount at bedtime usually helps with insomnia.

Try a sixth of a 25 mcg cynomel tablet at first, and watch for the effects in the first two hours. According to what you notice, you could continue that once a day, or twice a day, for about 10 days, then you could try some with each meal, for another week. #2 and #3: when you find out how the T3 affects you, you could change to the combination (Armour or Thyrolar or Cynoplus); the amounts I mentioned would be similar to 12 mcg of T3 per day.

It depends on what you notice from taking a small amount with meals. If it makes you feel pleasant, calm, confident, then trying it at bedtime would be right.

25 mcg of T3 has approximately the activity of a grain (65 mg) of thyroid gland; is ERFA the only one available? A synthetic thyroxine could be combined with the Cynomel. Since the European products aren't necessarily the same as those made elsewhere, and a person's requirements are variable, it's essential to start with small amounts, watching for the effects, including pulse rate and temperature. T4 builds up slowly in the tissues, over about 14 days, but the T3 acts immediately. With any product, a single dose of T3 of about 4 mcg is close to the physiological range; sometimes a smaller amount is enough.

As long as it's divided so that you don't get a big dose of T3 all at once it should be o.k. to take a total of 25 mcg T3 and 100 of T4.That would be similar to the traditional 2 grain dose of Armour thyroid. A healthy person should produce the equivalent of about four grains per day, so with 2 grains of supplement, or the equivalent, there isn't a risk of over-dosing.

I use Cynomel and Cynoplus mostly, but they come in only one size, so I cut the tablets into about ten parts.

Twice a day should be o.k., [CYTOMEL] but every day you should make a note of your pulse rate and temperature, and in a week or ten days you should be able to see a progression.

It [CYTOMEL] improves the retention of magnesium, and cellular relaxation, and some people want to have a nap in the afternoon when their thyroid is good.

If you use some T3 (such as Cytomel or Cynomel) it's important to keep each dose small, while watching for changes in your pulse and temperature. Usually 4 or 5 mcg at a time is o.k. (the body makes about 4 mcg per hour). I don't think there's likely to be any problem using desiccated thyroid if the product is good, but because of changing manufacturing methods, that's largely a matter of trial and error. Low ferritin is often a result of hypothyroidism. The need for thyroid increases greatly during the winter in high latitudes, for example when I needed half a grain in the summer, I had to increase it to two grains during the winter. When cholesterol is high, that can make it easier to adapt to a thyroid supplement, since the thyroid will stimulate the conversion of cholesterol into progesterone and the adrenal hormones.

I have heard from a few people using it, one thinks it doesn't work , but I haven't heard enough details to form an opinion yet. [THIROYD by Greater Pharma]

I use Cynoplus (contains T4 and T3) and Cynomel (T3 only) that I usually get from www.mymexicandrugstore.mx. There is only one size tablet, and a fourth of a tablet is a typical starting dose.

Several of the commercially available products aren't well formulated, some are completely inactive. Cytomel's formulation has changed recently, so I'm not sure of its present potency. In areas with fluoridated water, taking a tablet with water can inactivate it. With good Cytomel, once a person has taken a very big dose, the liver produces enzymes to inactivate it quickly, so after 12 hours the blood level will become too low, and another big dose will be needed. Stress hormones are responsible for raising reverse T3, and just supplementing T3 is seldom enough to normalize the stress hormones, so continued use of large doses can maintain improved functioning, but at the risk of developing problems from the continued excess of those hormones.

I think Triyotex is T3, 75 mcg, which would be three times as much as Cynomel, but I haven’t tried it, and don’t know how effective it is. Usually, a 5 mcg dose of T3 with each meal is effective. Anti-aging Systems in England has a large variety of thyroid products.

[T3 for someone who's been chronically running on adrenaline?] When T3 is used in small doses, such as 3 or 4 mcg at a time, it can be very effective for lowering adrenalin by letting glucose be more fully oxidized. It’s helpful to keep a chart of your waking and midday temperature and pulse rate to watch the cumulative effects of the T3, so you can adjust the dose. A dose at bedtime typically makes it possible to go to sleep quickly; it should be supported by things like orange juice, cheese, and milk. A natural desiccated thyroid product, in the long run, is a convenient way to keep your metabolic rate where it should be. Cytomel is the only T3 product that I’m confident of, at present.

[Giving 3mcg Cynomel/hour to 84-year-old grandmother with dementia] If someone is in a precarious condition, even smaller amounts at a time might be better. For example, a man in the hospital right after a heart attack started taking one mcg per hour; the doctors had said that at the rate his enzymes were rising they would be expected to keep rising for another day, but they started decreasing exactly when he started the small doses, and they had decreased the next day when he left the hospital, without symptoms. T3, sugar, and aspirin are the most heart-protective things.

[NDT RECOMMENDATIONS] I haven't seen anything that compares well with the original Armour.

Armour thyroid, USP, was the standard thyroid used widely for about 80 years. Since ownership of the product name was bought by Revlon and then a series of other companies, I'm not sure anything of the simple original formula remains; maybe magnesium stearate, I haven't looked lately.

A few years ago I had some communication from a pharmacist at Forest Pharmaceutical, and he said that over ten years ago they began having thyrocalcitonin extracted from the pig thyroid powder to sell separately as a new drug. I think that left stearic acid as the only ingredient the current product might have in common with traditional Armour thyroid, USP. I don't use any product containing fumed or colloidal silica, or titanium, or various novel polymers, or coloring agents

[TOPICAL T3] Using it topically doesn't do anything for systemic metabolism, just the skin, at least at the concentrations I'm familiar with.

[Liquid T3, concerns?] Trace impurities can inactivate it, but some liquid forms have worked.

[200 mcg T4 pill] During the first week, every day would be o.k., then I think once or twice a week is enough.

Of the brands I've had experience with, Cynoplus and Cynomel have been reliable products. Ray also recommends them as well.
Farmacia Del Nino is a good pharmacy that sells them.

 

[Doc Sandoz]

Thanks, Energizer. Looks like the above quotes are collected from various Ray Peat statements over time. I noticed threads on this forum indicating that a few years back people were having problems getting either, and that the company that made them was also having issues and/or had changed the formulation. Just went to Farmacia website and they have both in stock. Is your recent experience with the products still satisfactory?

A couple things are a bit unclear to me: Does a person start out using both? Or better to use one or the other. Sounds like starting out the 25 mcg Cynomel T3 should be divided into ten doses and taken several times per day. How does one divide a pill into such small doses? Similarly with the Cynoplus that has 30 mcg T3 per pill?

 

[Energizer]

No problem. The last batch I ordered was about 6 months ago, and they're working well. You could start with both, it's up to you. Considering how low your temperatures are, that's what I'd do personally. As for dividing the pieces, I nibble a T3 tablet during the day, but a straight razor/exacto-knife should be able to split them pretty well. I generally just try and split them up into the smallest pieces possible, and try to eat them with food. It is not an exact science, more of an art form. If you really want to be exact about it, you can buy a cheap scale and weigh each piece, Danny Roddy recommended doing that but I'm not sure I can be bothered for that.

 

[Sweet Meat]

I am 66 years old and discovered Ray Peat two months ago. Since then I've been off PUFA, eating coconut oil, drank my last Diet Coke and am generally trying to follow a more or less Ray Peat food regime. I suspect I have low thyroid. Temperature never gets above 98, most often its around 97.4.

Today I had a strange new experience while walking. I suddenly started sweating profusely, mostly from the head and shoulders, while at the same time feeling light-headed, almost dizzy and nearly needed to sit down but then the feeling eased a bit. When I got home my temperature was 93.6. Over the course of an hour and after some OJ, it has come back up, now 96.6.

Background: Yesterday I took for the first time in years Vit D, a tiny dose (10 mcg), because it had caused tremendous stress and anxiety when I tried it before. Even this low dose did the same thing again lasting into today. Then I found on this forum that such a reaction could be a sign of low Mg, so I took 400 mg of that and voila, anxiety gone in minutes. Later, I bagged my hand - that has a mild case of psoriasis - in a bath of pure CO2 for an hour. I had a small dose of coconut oil at dinner. Then the walk.

The drop in body temperature and sweating almost seems like hypoglycemia, as I have a friend that has it and have seen the results. But I have never in my life been hypoglycemic and I had eaten just two hours before. Then I thought maybe this was caused by the suspected thyroid deficiency, but I have not been able to find a similar experience on the forum or described in Ray's articles, interviews etc. I am wondering if someone has had these symptoms as a sign of hypothyroidism. Any thoughts that might help with diagnosis are most welcome.

my temp drops to 34-35 when i walk my dog. doesn't matter if i walk her for ten mins or 4 hrs, it will drop very far, very fast

it will be 37 again about 30mins after i come home and sit down. usually i feel pretty good, despite the drop in temp, so i wouldn't worry too much. i figured it was normal to help avoid overheating when you're forcing yourself to exercise

 

[Doc Sandoz]

my temp drops to 34-35 when i walk my dog. doesn't matter if i walk her for ten mins or 4 hrs, it will drop very far, very fast

it will be 37 again about 30mins after i come home and sit down. usually i feel pretty good, despite the drop in temp, so i wouldn't worry too much. i figured it was normal to help avoid overheating when you're forcing yourself to exercise

Thanks for the input. I've often wondered if it isn't a problem with the liver and/or muscles not being able to store enough glycogen or release it fast enough when energy demands are made. Once the demand slackens, temp comes right back up. I've been treating the issue as a form of hypoglycemia, making sure I've eaten before or have some sugar during a walk.

Interesting to read my posting from a while back when I had just started "peating". After nearly a year I find my avereage temperatures are higher and haven't fallen below 96.5 F for a long time even after exercise and that only happens if its been too long since I've eaten before walking. Typical temps now are 98 or so upon waking, after the first meal up to 98.4 or so. The rest of the day is less predictable, however, the usual range being 97.4 - 98.8. Not sure yet what activity or other stimulus correlates with the fluctuations.