Bicarbonate Vs. PaCO2 Blood Tests

[Blossom]

http://www.vernier.com/products/interfaces/go-link/
http://www.vernier.com/products/sensors/co2-bta/

That's a great price! Do you have one S_S?

 

[Such_Saturation]

http://www.vernier.com/products/interfaces/go-link/
http://www.vernier.com/products/sensors/co2-bta/

That's a great price! Do you have one S_S?

Of course not, or I'd be too excited to type

 

[natedawggh]

Ray peat did not invent external hormones, they are given to tons of people, Show me one who is cured of anything)))

Me. I have been cured. I have been cured of fatty liver, three thyroid tummors one of which was greater than 1 cm, my baldness has filled in dramatically and I am also cured of my eczema and my insomnia. You are the one who has not been cured, so if anyone is reading this the results would speak for themselves.

I have achieved all of this following Dr peats guidelines exactly. I know from my own experience that he is right and you are not. That is all.

 

[narouz]

Me. I have been cured. I have been cured of fatty liver, three thyroid tummors one of which was greater than 1 cm, my baldness has filled in dramatically and I am also cured of my eczema and my insomnia.

Don't forget the 4 orgasms in one day. :)

 

[natedawggh]

Me. I have been cured. I have been cured of fatty liver, three thyroid tummors one of which was greater than 1 cm, my baldness has filled in dramatically and I am also cured of my eczema and my insomnia.

Don't forget the 4 orgasms in one day. :)

LOL yes!! That one is probably the most important!

 

[Blossom]

Go natedawggh!

 

[narouz]

Also the fact that a good portion of his work is a development and integration of the ideas of other visionary pioneers.

Yes!
He's a great science historian,
and in a very sophisticated way.
I think Peat has mentioned J. Bronowski's work.
Peat is somebody who is that rare crossover genious.
He can read and understand a literary figure as steep as Blake,
and at the same time give you the in's and out's of cytochrome oxidase enzyme or whatever it is...

 

[tara]

http://www.vernier.com/products/interfaces/go-link/
http://www.vernier.com/products/sensors/co2-bta/

That's a great price! Do you have one S_S?

Of course not, or I'd be too excited to type

Did either of you figure out if the separate software/interface is required to interpret it? And what that costs?

 

[Such_Saturation]

There's a free version! Cool little program. There's also a "free" version.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Ideally you also get this http://www.vernier.com/products/sensors/spr-bta/ to get anywhere close to a grams per liter measurement. Also devise some contraption with valves that keeps everything together. And they have a thermometer http://www.vernier.com/products/sensors ... s/tmp-bta/ oh god so many possibilities

 

[NathanK]

I hate to bring up this thread again, but did we ever get down to the bottom of PaCo2 readings or just chalk it up to "depends on context". After the second page of this thread, it seemed to really lose itself and beyond my inclination or desired knowledge, but I don't think the questions posed were quite answered.

In my experience, I remember being Paleo years ago and having higher CO2 (29-30) serum and my oximeter tests (97/98). Since then my readings have all gone down. My oximeter is typically +-1 95% and serum Co2 around 26-7. That said, my temps are averaging above 98.6 these days and pulse is finally closer to 80, which is very different than the waking temps in the 96s a year ago. Otherwise, my BP is normal and I feel fine.

So, I'm guessing the context would be if you're seemingly healthy than lower could be good as more Co2 is getting into where it needs to go. If you're low, and in a hospital bed, then you're likely more hypoxic and then all bets are off until more tests are done to dig deeper. Is this a correct assumption/summation?

 

[InChristAlone]

Thanks for sharing your numbers NathanK, I have a feeling lower CO2 in the context of overall better numbers is good. Since Diamox lowers this number as well which increases CO2. I think I mentioned it in this thread can't remember, that when taking Diamox that number can actually get too low and you can become too acidic especially if you were to take aspirin with it!

 

[NathanK]

Thanks for sharing your numbers NathanK, I have a feeling lower CO2 in the context of overall better numbers is good. Since Diamox lowers this number as well which increases CO2. I think I mentioned it in this thread can't remember, that when taking Diamox that number can actually get too low and you can become too acidic especially if you were to take aspirin with it!

Thanks Janelle, I've been looking more closely and I kind of had a rough metabolic morning from staying up too late. Waking pulse was in the 50s and feet a little chilly. That's lowest I've ever noticed my pulse! I noticed my PaCO2 was hitting 97/98 then. As my numbers have risen through the day my CO2 has dropped back into that 95 range.

Thanks for the recommendations in this thread for the altitude interview. It's a good one!

 

[NathanK]

I just had a big "whoa, AHA!" moment after reading the Altitude article. Ray mentions spending time at high elevations can effect your mitochondrial health for as long as 18 months after spending some quality time at higher altitudes.

Well, I have this very odd set of blood tests done at the end of January 2011. They're so odd that until today I've wondered if the lab screwed up and maybe got them mixed up with someone elses. See my lipids across the board were substantially lower. Total went from high 200s to 211. What made them atypical is that nothing I had done in years present through serious work changed them. 6 months later I had them done again and they were back to earlier results.

What was the defining variable from that time I've always wondered. I figured then that it was my cessation of tobacco 3 months earlier, but later results show that couldn't have been it. What I had done was spend 4 days in Albuquerque, NM a couple months earlier (5000+ ft vs. maybe a few hundred feet in Austin TX, my home). I had also spent a week in Northern Arizona with the wife's family for Christmas. Both places I noticed it was more challenging to breath. Part of why I went to go see the doctor when I came back.

Mystery solved.

 

[gbolduev]

You will have higher CO2 numbers when you are running in more alkaline blood and lower Co2 numbers when you are in acidic state metabolically. But if you have respiratory problems like 80% of people have then all this is NOT TRUE about CO2.

At high altitudes you hyperventilate and you go into resp alkalosis. It is a fact which could be checked by any of you. SO at high altitudes your CO2 in blood will be super LOW.

When you take aspirin your CO2 will go down. It is also a fact. Since anything that makes your blood more acidic metabolically will bring down CO2 as compensation.

So basically what Ray Peat writes is that most people go into metabolic acidosis as they age. And their CO2 goes down to compensate that metabolic acidosis. BUT If you raise your CO2 in that state you will harm yourself. THAT IS a FACT
CO2 does not oxygenate anything, it only affects PH of blood, which then affects oxygen affinity to hemoglobin.


Just my 2 cents on this.


Now example. My CO2 is high since I have scoliosis.( so respiratory drive is low) or my CO2 is high since I sit on my **** at the computer all day or sit in the car or sit at work. Is sugar good for me? or wait , is salt good for me? may be I should take some progesterone? HAHA

Sorry but to me, this is all utter nonsense.

May be I am missing something. But to me Ray Peat's advice represents one type of person with metabolic acidosis and actually high sugar metabolism not low. BUt that is one type of at least 12.


Good luck

 

[tara]

When you take aspirin your CO2 will go down. It is also a fact. Since anything that makes your blood more acidic metabolically will bring down CO2 as compensation.

This makes sense to me. Isuspect this may be part of why I don't feel like using aspirin bery often.
Is the converse also true? Ie, does anything that makes your blood more alkaline tend to be followed by increased CO2?

 

[gbolduev]

Yes Tara. If you make your blood more alkaline metabolically. Your CO2 will go up.
So when you see high bicarbonates on peoples tests here. You know that most probably (80%) of them have high CO2 and acidosis. And may be just 20% of them have met alkalosis

So if I had to guess ABGS just from one bicarbonate test.If bicarb is high I would guess person has resp acidosis. If bicarbs low I would guess met acidosis. of course this is just a guess.

I remember Haidut mentioned that many people have high bicarbonate on tests here, and it would be nice to lower it)))) That is so funny. Most of them have high bicarb since they have high CO2 and bicarb kept high to compensate. Body of these people tries to keep metabolism low not to produce CO2 and is using a lot of zinc to convert Co2 to bicarb. IF you raise metabolism of these people it will make them worse down the line.


Also as far as PTH goes. 80% of people whoever tested PTH with me show it in the lower part of the range. Only a few showed high PTH.

My suggestion is before listening to diet preachers, test your blood first. Peat interested me and I tested all of his statements and most of them were false at least for my little population.

I mean to me it was obvious that they would be false. Since we all have totally different life styles. One smokes another lifts, third sits at the computer, another drinks. So the statement serotonin and cortisol cause aging. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

The major reason why a lot of people have high cortisol is pancreas problem not stress.
So if your pancreas are not working properly , what will happen if you give more protein into the body?
You will be toxic in all this ammonia and indigested crap in your small intestine and will get SIBO.

That is why Kelly |Gerson took people off protein to cure cancer. Since net nitrogen should be positive to cure cancer.

If your cortisol is high , you are protein deficient, but if you give 150 gram of protein , it will go even higher. Since your pancreas will get even worse.

SO most likely all the problems people have is mostly pancreas related or gastrin related

Adrenal fatigue for instance. What is it? it is all a big time lie.

Pancreas go down, protein is not digested properly cortisol goes up at first . Adrenals are not fatiqued they will be pumping that cortisol day in and day out if you still have muscle tissue. Obviously your DHEA and aldosterone go down.

Then when your tissues and muscles get depleted, Cortisol will be lowered by the body not to break down heart and important organs.This is what CFS is. And this is when smart geniuses come in and reccomend pregnonelone and progesterone and DHEA. LMAO so the body eats itself further. The body just lowered cortisol not to eat you alive and you give the precursors?

Pancreas and gastrin would be my statement what makes us age. definetely not some cortisol or serotonin. It makes absolutely no sense.

 

[haidut]

Yes Tara. If you make your blood more alkaline metabolically. Your CO2 will go up.
So when you see high bicarbonates on peoples tests here. You know that most probably (80%) of them have high CO2 and acidosis. And may be just 20% of them have met alkalosis

So if I had to guess ABGS just from one bicarbonate test.If bicarb is high I would guess person has resp acidosis. If bicarbs low I would guess met acidosis. of course this is just a guess.

I remember Haidut mentioned that many people have high bicarbonate on tests here, and it would be nice to lower it)))) That is so funny. Most of them have high bicarb since they have high CO2 and bicarb kept high to compensate. Body of these people tries to keep metabolism low not to produce CO2 and is using a lot of zinc to convert Co2 to bicarb. IF you raise metabolism of these people it will make them worse down the line.


Also as far as PTH goes. 80% of people whoever tested PTH with me show it in the lower part of the range. Only a few showed high PTH.

My suggestion is before listening to diet preachers, test your blood first. Peat interested me and I tested all of his statements and most of them were false at least for my little population.

I mean to me it was obvious that they would be false. Since we all have totally different life styles. One smokes another lifts, third sits at the computer, another drinks. So the statement serotonin and cortisol cause aging. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

The major reason why a lot of people have high cortisol is pancreas problem not stress.
So if your pancreas are not working properly , what will happen if you give more protein into the body?
You will be toxic in all this ammonia and indigested crap in your small intestine and will get SIBO.

That is why Kelly |Gerson took people off protein to cure cancer. Since net nitrogen should be positive to cure cancer.

If your cortisol is high , you are protein deficient, but if you give 150 gram of protein , it will go even higher. Since your pancreas will get even worse.

SO most likely all the problems people have is mostly pancreas related or gastrin related

Adrenal fatigue for instance. What is it? it is all a big time lie.

Pancreas go down, protein is not digested properly cortisol goes up at first . Adrenals are not fatiqued they will be pumping that cortisol day in and day out if you still have muscle tissue. Obviously your DHEA and aldosterone go down.

Then when your tissues and muscles get depleted, Cortisol will be lowered by the body not to break down heart and important organs.This is what CFS is. And this is when smart geniuses come in and reccomend pregnonelone and progesterone and DHEA. LMAO so the body eats itself further. The body just lowered cortisol not to eat you alive and you give the precursors?

Pancreas and gastrin would be my statement what makes us age. definetely not some cortisol or serotonin. It makes absolutely no sense.

Not sure, where you got the idea that I recommended people lower their high bicarbonate. Can you please provide a quote/reference from my posts? As far as I remember my post was about high bicarbonate being described by several sources as a state of alkalosis, and IF that is correct then we would want it to be lower.

DHEA is not a precursor for cortisol so it would not increase it - i.e. it is not in the pathway to cortisol production. So, not sure where you got this idea from. Progesterone MAY increase cortisol but only in cases like Cushing syndrome, which you know very well about. People with Cushing tend to metabolize the progesterone towards both the cortisol and aldosterone pathways. In people without Cushing progesterone does NOT raise cortisol, and in fact my lower it since progesterone metabolizes into allopregnanolone and this blocks ACTH and thus cortisol production. Only in Cushing syndrome, and especially ectopic Cushings can progesterone increase cortisol since there is an out of control process tha tfavors cortisol production from precursors like progesterone. Finally, pregnenolone is actually a glucocorticoid receptor antagonist (just like DHEA). So, in that sense it seem like you are also using your specific case (just like you say Peat does) to explain how other people should/would react to supplements.
The ideas about the pancreas and protein making people feel worse are very plausible, however without some more detailed explanation it is hard to chalk up all health problem to pancreas. Can you please explain what you mean by pancreas problems? Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency or some other disorder? Not enough protease produced? If it is the latter then why not just take digestive enzymes with protease and be done with it? So please explain more.
Finally, there is tons of evidence to believe that you are wrong on cortisol and serotonin. People with chronic diseases have both high serotonin and high cortisol. Virtually all critical people in ICU have high cortisol, high serotonin, and high estrogen. Bringing them down with drugs virtually guarantees survival in ICU. So, how can these things be not relevant to aging and disease? There are studies showing serotonin drugs like SSRI shorten lifespan while serotonin antagonists like cyproheptadine, mianserin, ketanserin, ondansetron increase it. There are studies about cortisol antagonists like RU486 also increasing lifespan. Serotonin antagonists and cortisol antagonist bring old people back to a state of anabolism similar to 30-yeal old people. In Russia there are trials with cyproheptadine for age-related sarcopenia. Serotonin is even more catabolic to muscle than cortisol, and with aging serotonin production increases while dopamine decreases. Protein deficiency is the likely reason for serotonin dominance of old age, and pancreas malfunction may very well be one of the causes. However, pancreas malfunction can also be a result of the aging process, which is probably down to hypometabolism. It is hard to say which is the cause and which is the effect. The funny thing is that I don't think your explanation contradict Peat's. Both of you are saying there is protein deficiency in many disease states, but you seem to be ascribing it to some sort of pancreas malfunction. That could be the direct reason. However, the question then is what is causing this malfunction? Unless you claim that everybody has some sort of specific pancreatic condition, then the more logical conclusion would be that there is systemic malfunction and pancreas malfunction is a result of it. And that systemic malfunction is most likely a problem with energy production. Peat says it is usually hypothyroidism but it could be a number of other issues causing it including chronic infection, radiation poisoning, heavy metal poisoning (this is the one you favor I think), "autoimmune" conditions, etc.
Let's assume a system metabolic problem manifests itself in many specific conditions like the pancreas malfunction you mention. To break out of this cycle, the logical thing to do would be to stop the catabolic process and its mediators. To do that you need to block/control serotonin, cortisol, estrogen and prolactin.
So, in light of the serotonin being catabolic and increasing with age the trial with antiserotonin drugs makes perfect sense. Other things like anti-estrogenic drugs and anti-prolactin drugs should also be helpful. There is a reason these drugs have shown success for so many conditions. The reason is that they work to alleviate systemic malfunction, which serotonin, estrogen and prolactin directly cause if chornically elevated. People in a state of catabolism will have chronically serotonin due to tryptophan from muscle breakdown overcrowding the amino acid transport mechanism in the brain. While your serotonin is high you will not have positive nitrogen balance. I guess the idea of decreasing protein intake may be somewhat helpful but is wrong in the long run since the body needs protein to repair itself. Anyways, there is too much to explain this one post but if you don't mind please explain in just what context have you seen elevated cortisol or serotonin being good for health staying chronically elevated.
Finally, data on PTH also backs up Peat. Most people over 30 have vitamin D deficiency and in a state of vitamin D deficiency your PTH will not be low, it will be in the upper range of normal or elevated. This is called secondary hyperparathyroidism. I don't know if Peat's idea is right - i.e. that this suggests calcium deficiency that should be fixed with increasing calcium intake. However, it certainly does not match your observations of low PTH in most people.
I think we all have tendencies to see what worked for us and project this into the world. Peat and you and I are no exception. So, in the absense of decades of medical experience the only thins we can do is combine what worked for us with what the studies say. Most of the studies stand with Peat on things like serotonin, estrogen, PTH, prolactin, etc. I keep asking you to provide some independent evidence to back up your claims. Not because I like studies more than experience but because I would like to see somebody else other than you confirm the ideas you mention here. Otherwise it sounds like you may be guilty of the same things you accuse Peat of - i.e. projecting your own unique experience upon the general public. In addition, many of the things you mention tend to be associated with a specific organ conditions. However, as you well know the organism is fully interconnected and most health issues tend to be systemic. So, I don't see how the pancreatic problems you mention cannot be explained by a more general state of systemic hypometabolism. Why focus on reductionism when all evidence points to a single, generic, systemic issue behind most/all diseases? Can you please explain why you favor specific conditions vs. a whole organism problem?
Anyways, not trying to start an argument but just asking once again for some independent confirmation of the things you propose.

 

[gbolduev]

Haidut


As I mentioned before. I go by my own studies aka blood tests in this case. I collected quite a population for 2 years when I helped people. I am telling you what I saw on the tests. Cortisol is not a problem at all. COrtisol is raised for survival to get you protein when pancreas go down. Serotonin is raised to support brain function. These two have nothing to do with the actual problem

I have no idea what you want from me. I am telling you info that I know for a fact from blood tests. I dont read studies and dont plan to.

One thing I can tell you . Almost none of sick people have high estrogen and 80% of CFS people have low cortisol that is why they take hormones)))

What is there to argue, just test 10 people out here for PTH you will see yourself))) PTH is very rare to be up. VERY VERY RARE. I saw it up may be in 1 case out of 50 in my population.


Also numbers from my case. MY TSH is 0.7 my estrogen is low, my pth is bottom of the range. PUlse 85. Normal temperatures. According to Peat I am super human))))) WRONG I had major major problems when I had these tests.


You are wrong, if you are not getting protein inside you need to stop catabolic state? You need to get protein but in a different way.

I never said cortisol or serotonin being elevated is good. NOthing low or high is good. I say BALANCE.

I say that cortisol and serotonin dont have anything to do with aging at all. These are raised in certain situations to save you. But they are raised for purpose not as a mistake.
the real problem is your pancreas or gastrin, which stops you from digesting protein properly. Then you have high cortisol at first and then when you get depleted of muscles you will get low cortisol like all people with CFS. and feeding more protein does nothing in this case. NOTHING

Really sick people have low cortisol not high. YOu know why? Since they dont have any protein left in their body , cortisol is lowered. But if your pancreas are not working correctly and you lower your high cortisol, you will get liver toxicity since you wont make any systemic proteins like ferritin or ceruloplasmin

That is when you are sick you need to get aminos that dont require digestion.


As far as projections to the world . I am into algorithmic trading, I dont project , I get data and I look at it myself. I dont talk from my case at all. I saw many many many blood work cases to even open my mouth. How many actual tests have you done? And how many people did you observe.

For me Ray Peat projects one case to the world which is major wrong. And even from this forum you can see that his diet helps at best 50% of people.


I dont tell all people to do the same thing. I tell people to get tested and see for themselves that in at least 50% cases PEAT is wrong. I would say in 80% from my little population. ( 100 people with ABGs) and blood work. And about 1000 people with blood work and hairtests.

So I project nothing, I project truth. And truth is you go and get tested and you will see that I am right.

I will not go and look for some studies i just go to the lab instead. See the difference. That is major problem in the US. In the US you have problems to get tested for simplest stuff and that is why people prefer to try stuff out without even knowing where they are and blindly trusting Peat like gurus.

We argue about simple things, I have no idea why though. They should be obvious to any researcher. It is not about studies, it is about understanding of how everything works. YOu can find studies to fit any theory. Hey when I started I was like that, I could find any studies to fit any of my theories. And the ones that dont fit it I would try to explain somehow. LIke niacinamide does not raise serotonin, oh but it raises uptake and so forth)))) it goes on and on . YOu go and test yourself at least first . Then you test at least 10 people you know . And even from this little population you will see that all these gurus know nothing. And that it is way more complex. One guy drinks alcohol and another smokes cigarettes, third lifts , and another one jerks off non stop. ALL of them have the same chemistry? LMAO of course not and diets will be different, since they are screwing their balance in different ways.


I cant direct you in the location for you to find and confirm what I am saying in studies I dont read studies any more at all, I used to ,and beileve me I know most of the studies you reference, I even had huge collection of them for every body system.But to confirm what I am saying Sorry, it simply does not exist. I am giving you this information for no cost from my heart and I swear that what |I am saying is the truth. Maybe my population is not big, but it is something real, at least for me. these are the results that I got and no one can take this away from me. I am not selling anything to anyone, and I am not giving advice or helping anyone. I am not in this field at all now. It has nothing to do with my experience I only pass on what I got on these tests. You make your own conclusions. I made my own .

Good luck , buddy

 

[InChristAlone]

gbolduev,
I would also like to know what you mean by the problem is pancreas and gastrin? How do you fix that?

I definitely developed low cortisol after chronic stress. I'm starting to get my life back, and I think part of the reason is getting stress reactions down with cyproheptadine like Haidut talks about. Once the stress was down I was able to get nutrition in. But when I was running on stress/adrenaline I couldn't digest properly.. Also balancing my blood sugar is key, I do that with easily digestible foods like milk juice sugar eggs. And now a missing link I think is potassium so I am trying to get more of that.

Anyway just thought I'd chime in since I thought the Peat stuff really wasn't working out for a while there, but things are turning around.