Bicarbonate Vs. PaCO2 Blood Tests

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
Hi Blossom, Interesting that you noticed increased breathing after acetylzolamide.
I wonder if the carbonic anhydrase inhibitors directly or indirectly modify the CO2 set point? Otherwise, what would stop one just breathing a bit more to maintain the previous set point?
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
Hey Haidut,

Ray Peat is covering one type of body chemistry. To know what is your balance you need to know arterial blood gases and you cant just test bicarb in blood alone or CO2 alone or bicarb and CO2.

If you have high bicarb in blood and it is not over 30. That means that in 80% chance you are in respiratory acidosis. If you have bicarb over 30 , then most likely you are in alkalosis.

If your blood PH is low you can have high bicarb in blood. If you have problems with acetylcholine or potassium and your breathing drive is impaired you will have highish CO2 especially during sleep and that will bring bicarb up in blood to compensate and also zinc will be raised and manganese will be used a lot.

Most of the people fall in this category and I have no idea why Peat gives his plan to people if it matches the minority of cases.


Orange juice has potassium and copper an magnesium and lowers acetylcholine which will decrease breathing rate which will increase CO2. If you already have high CO2 I would assume it would be bad for you .

Tested about 100 people the last month for arterial blood gases. 80% --high CO2 20% low CO2. So once again I think Peats recs represent minority of people and dangerous . Since in respiratory acidosis you cant take calcium it will go right into your cell and lower already low metabolic rate.


In respiratory acidosis which is 80% of population , your metabolic rate is lowered on purpose not to produce extra CO2 from metabolism. You calcium goes up in the cell, magnesium goes up in the cell, sodium and potassiuum kept low in the cell. This is done on purpose . When you eat salt and you take potassium and B vitamins you make it worse although you increase your metabolic rate and feel a little better energy but at the same time you are going into 4 highs in the cell. HIGH sodium high potassium higher calcium and higher magnesium since your CO2 raises higher with metabolism rise.


That is why Peat says you live longer when you have high CO2, since your metabolism is in the complete crapper and oxidation is low. ALl you do is sit on your **** ))) since metabolism does not allow to do otherwise.


Bottom line, If you have high CO2, body increases bicarbonate , body takes iron out of blood to slow down met rate, takes zinc out of blood to use for CO2 to bicarb conversion, takes selenium out of blood to slow down thyroid, puts calcium and maganesium into ionized form into the cell to suppress sodium and ptoassium entrance and thus suppress absorbtion of vitamins and thyroid hormone sensitivity. ALL done to lower met rate to lower CO2 production. This creates a low energy state but could prolong life )))


NOw tell me how is this good?

First you will lose your vision on this, secondly you will have low energy. Will have allergies big time.


Body needs to be balanced , and for some CO2 is good for some poison , for some bicarb is good for some poison. For some salt is good for some poison. Aspirin is poison for ALL. It does not belong in the body.

Also to know what is going on ABGs are not enough. You need electrolytes, inslulin progesterone, calcium magnesium and also you need RCBs to know what is in the cell since body will try its best to compensate.

IN majority cases high bicarbonate that is acidosis not alkalosis, and usually the one caused by high CO2 so in this case if you increase CO2 and lower bicarb you will die since body will be using electolytes from the cell to compensate for the acidity you created)) On hairtests it is called 4 lows pattern. where all major electrolytes are low in hair meaning you have both respiratory and metabolic acidosis at the same time


Good luck
 

mas

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
148
bolduev,

Would you please explain your statement in further detail:

"Tested about 100 people the last month for arterial blood gases. 80% --high CO2 20% low CO2. So once again I think Peats recs represent minority of people and dangerous . Since in respiratory acidosis you cant take calcium it will go right into your cell and lower already low metabolic rate."

________________________________

Who tested these 100 people- you, or do you work in a hospital with medical teams, or was this from some random study you participated in?

The 100 people who were being tested- were they ill or not?

How accurate are these blood tests?

______________________

Scientific studies regarding this subject would be necessary for understanding the complexities of the human body and the dynamic compensations that are constantly being made to keep the checks and balances to all human systems.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
gbolduev said:
Hey Haidut,

Ray Peat is covering one type of body chemistry. To know what is your balance you need to know arterial blood gases and you cant just test bicarb in blood alone or CO2 alone or bicarb and CO2.

If you have high bicarb in blood and it is not over 30. That means that in 80% chance you are in respiratory acidosis. If you have bicarb over 30 , then most likely you are in alkalosis.

If your blood PH is low you can have high bicarb in blood. If you have problems with acetylcholine or potassium and your breathing drive is impaired you will have highish CO2 especially during sleep and that will bring bicarb up in blood to compensate and also zinc will be raised and manganese will be used a lot.

Most of the people fall in this category and I have no idea why Peat gives his plan to people if it matches the minority of cases.


Orange juice has potassium and copper an magnesium and lowers acetylcholine which will decrease breathing rate which will increase CO2. If you already have high CO2 I would assume it would be bad for you .

Tested about 100 people the last month for arterial blood gases. 80% --high CO2 20% low CO2. So once again I think Peats recs represent minority of people and dangerous . Since in respiratory acidosis you cant take calcium it will go right into your cell and lower already low metabolic rate.


In respiratory acidosis which is 80% of population , your metabolic rate is lowered on purpose not to produce extra CO2 from metabolism. You calcium goes up in the cell, magnesium goes up in the cell, sodium and potassiuum kept low in the cell. This is done on purpose . When you eat salt and you take potassium and B vitamins you make it worse although you increase your metabolic rate and feel a little better energy but at the same time you are going into 4 highs in the cell. HIGH sodium high potassium higher calcium and higher magnesium since your CO2 raises higher with metabolism rise.


That is why Peat says you live longer when you have high CO2, since your metabolism is in the complete crapper and oxidation is low. ALl you do is sit on your **** ))) since metabolism does not allow to do otherwise.


Bottom line, If you have high CO2, body increases bicarbonate , body takes iron out of blood to slow down met rate, takes zinc out of blood to use for CO2 to bicarb conversion, takes selenium out of blood to slow down thyroid, puts calcium and maganesium into ionized form into the cell to suppress sodium and ptoassium entrance and thus suppress absorbtion of vitamins and thyroid hormone sensitivity. ALL done to lower met rate to lower CO2 production. This creates a low energy state but could prolong life )))


NOw tell me how is this good?

First you will lose your vision on this, secondly you will have low energy. Will have allergies big time.


Body needs to be balanced , and for some CO2 is good for some poison , for some bicarb is good for some poison. For some salt is good for some poison. Aspirin is poison for ALL. It does not belong in the body.

Also to know what is going on ABGs are not enough. You need electrolytes, inslulin progesterone, calcium magnesium and also you need RCBs to know what is in the cell since body will try its best to compensate.

IN majority cases high bicarbonate that is acidosis not alkalosis, and usually the one caused by high CO2 so in this case if you increase CO2 and lower bicarb you will die since body will be using electolytes from the cell to compensate for the acidity you created)) On hairtests it is called 4 lows pattern. where all major electrolytes are low in hair meaning you have both respiratory and metabolic acidosis at the same time


Good luck

Hi gbolduev! Long time no hear/speak:): How is everything? I hope you are doing well.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I have also found out that the simple bicarbonate blood test is close to useless unless it is close to either the low or high cutoffs since then it signifies something it out of whack. PaCO2, electrolytes, chloride, thyroid and pH are like you said the minimum requirement to get an idea of what is going on with CO2 metabolism.

If I am not mistaken the ideas you use to explain the balance are more of less based on the work of Dr. Wilson and Dr. Eck right?
http://drlwilson.com/Dr.%20Wilson.htm

I read a lot about these two doctors and their ideas make a lot of sense, but the few people I know who did the hair analysis did not find any abnormalities nor toxic metals like you suggested. If you look at the posts on the forum, a number of people post blood work and have issues like high cortisol, high cholesterol, low steroids like progesterone or T, low thyroid, etc. Those issues also seem correlated with age so it's probably not driven by toxic metals or electrolyte imbalances. It seems to be connected with the energetic state of the cell and many people respond well to reduction in stress or supplemental pregnenolone/progesterone.
I do agree with you that the high doses of calcium recommended by Peat need to be balanced by magnesium and zinc b/c otherwise they would excite the cells too much and even start killing them.
However, I do not agree that having the low metabolism from calcium is what would give people longevity. I don't know of many studies in humans but the animals studies show that exceptionally long lived animals like flamingos, sea gulls, naked mole rats, etc all have highly saturated fats and uncoupled mitochondria. Since aspirin is one of the uncouplers I am not sure why you say it is poison. Is caffeine a poison too? It also extends lifespan in many animals. What about all the studies showing aspirin preventing and maybe even curing some cancers? Why would a poison be doing such good things for the body? You and I had a discussion in one of the threads about removing iron from the body. Aspirin and vitamin E are direct chelators of iron. Aspirin also chelates mercury and lead. So I am not sure why you say aspirin is poison...
As far as the CO2 and what is optimal - are you saying that 80% of the people you saw had high CO2? If that is the case then it means either they have a disorder of carbonic anhydrase (unlikely) or their metabolism was working pretty well. If it is the latter then I am not sure what problem did they have? Can you please give us some more details?
Finally, aspirin and CO2 effects on the cell are pretty similar - they shrink it and make it more lipophilic, and thus more resistant to entry by estrogen and serotonin. You and I agreed that both estrogen and serotonin are poisons and some of the latest drugs for cancer are IDO inhibitors which keeps serotonin levels low. Well, aspirin is an IDO inhibitor and I believe so is CO2.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1809338/

Sp, if aspirin and CO2 act similarly on the cell, and both are protective against cancer, and several other degenerative diseases like Alzheimer and Parkinson, then can you please explain how these two substances are toxic? Presumably, if CO2 is low we should be keeping it low then? If CO2 is low then how is the cell supposed to get properly oxygenated given that its level of oxygenation and thus metabolism directly depends on the levels of CO2 in the cell?
Please explain more, I am trying to learn an alternative point of view.
 

Dean

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Messages
793
ok, I made a vow to myself that I wasn't going to post in these scientific studies sections because the discussion is over my head, but that "80/20" post got my attention.

I know Peat has talked and written about the importance of getting magnesium and zinc, but I've never heard him or don't remember him talking about ratios to calcium, which it would seem he would be more strident and exact about if the circumstances of a deficiency of magnesium and zinc (or ratio to calcium), with high a calcium intake were so dire.

Maybe that post needs to be forwarded to Peat himself, so we can get his direct response to it? Or, Haidut start talking fast, but in a calm and soothing voice, if you please. LOL
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
Haidut,

It is not about toxic metals on the hairtest. If your metabolism is low you wont see anything on the hairtest since you are chelating nothing.It could take years for you to chelate toxic metals and for them to show up in hair. I dont use Dr Ecks system I do my own testing. But to learn as a core his system is superb, it will take years to learn as it did for me.

You misunderstood me, aspirin is a poison for the body since it does not belong there. CO2 is poison if you have too much of it. As in respiratory acidosis you cant take baking soda and they will never give you baking soda in that condition in the emergency room. The balance is the key.

Of course if you are in alkalosis aspirin will make you feel better, but it is still poison since you have to be made feel better by a mineral that is missing not by substition or an acid. I hope you get my point.

If you have high CO2 you can have copper toxicity since that lowers your breathing. Secondly you can have candida which creates CO2 thirdly you can live in the city which has way too much CO2. Also you can eat too much sugar. You have low insulin. Tons of possibilities why you have too much of CO2. Low zinc will cause low bicarb high CO2. Low manganese will cause low acetycholine low breathing drive and respiratory acidosis and high Co2


Asprin of course can cure cancers if you are in alkalosis. If you are in acidosis it will cause cancer.

Cancers that are advanced usually are alkaline, since when all your buffers give up supporting acidity , like bicarbonate will go down , then phosforus , potassium hemoglobin then calcium will be raised with PTH in the last stage, and usualy PTH overdoes its job and causes alkalosis . sometimes aspirin can help in this condition.

If a person is in a stage when cancer is caused by low bicarbonate, like pancreatic cancer, aspirin will kill you .

SO as you see it is all about balance, all these studies are taken out of context. And you can use these substances only in certain conditions that fit your present body chemistry.

Cafeine is definetely a poison for certain body chemistry. Hey water is poison for certain body chemistry . If you are in low electolytes balance and you have both resp and met acidosis , and you drink 3 liters of water a day you will pass out shortly.

Estrogen and serotonin are not poisons they are made in your body. They need to be balanced and if you have low serotonin and low estrogen you will suffer huge. We discussed before that Peat looks at it from one side and this is very wrong to me. For instance if you have tons of estrogen mimics inside of your body , then your estrogen will be very very low in blood and copper will be mistakenly not absorbed since your body already thinks you have too much of it.

It is all about balance, there are no bad things that are made inside of your body. Peat is insane saying that. Serotonin is not bad , nor estrogen. They are made inside of your body, but their balance could be bad , and not from one side only , it could be low estrogen and high estrogen problems high serotonin or low seroton problems.

I have tons of bodybuilders that I helped and they have low estrogen since they suppressed it constantly with drugs. All of them crashed like crazy , when your body raises estrogen it wants copper , they suppress that need. End result major problems.

People age from imbalances not from low serotonin or high serotonin . You will age and die if you have both low or high cortisol. Your killer will be different that is all. IN one case bacteria will kill you and in other virus


Good luck
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Dean said:
ok, I made a vow to myself that I wasn't going to post in these scientific studies sections because the discussion is over my head, but that "80/20" post got my attention.

I know Peat has talked and written about the importance of getting magnesium and zinc, but I've never heard him or don't remember him talking about ratios to calcium, which it would seem he would be more strident and exact about if the circumstances of a deficiency of magnesium and zinc (or ratio to calcium), with high a calcium intake were so dire.

Maybe that post needs to be forwarded to Peat himself, so we can get his direct response to it? Or, Haidut start talking fast, but in a calm and soothing voice, if you please. LOL

Well, Peat obviously advocates a high calcium intake and says that the alkaline minerals can fill in for each other's roles. On his ideal diet, one would be consuming 2 quarts of milk (M) and 1 quart of orange (O) juice. This means a about 2.5g of calcium (combined total from M+O), 330mg magnesium (M+O), 5g potassium (M+O) and 900mg sodium (M+O). I think Peat considers the intracellular metals to be opposing to the extracelular ones. So, potassium and magnesium would balance out sodium and calcium. I have never heard Peat speak about ratios either but he has talked about Ling and how potassium and magnesium balance calcium.
Consuming too much calcium on its own can lead to excitotoxicity, especially in the brain and GI system. That's why calcium causes constipation - it excites the intestinal cells. In addition, calcium triggers insulin release, so gbolduev thinks that can lead to other mineral deficiencies since both zinc and manganese are needed for the synthesis of insulin. Whether that's true or not is debatable as experimentally induced zinc and/or manganese deficiency do trigger insulin resistance, but the deficiency was induced by not consuming these minerals and NOT by high calcium intake. So, while in theory high calcium intake MAY increase requirements for zinc and manganese, in practice I am not aware of studies that show that. However, calcium and magnesium definitely need each other and have to be consumed either in same meals or within 24 hours. Magnesium also optimizes calcium utilization and prevents calcium deposits in soft tissues. Zinc and manganese don't do that to my knowledge.
I think Peat's main point is that you should focus on raising metabolism and let the various "ratios" sort themselves out. Of course, increasing metabolism means increasing food and nutrient intake in proportions. I think orange juice is great for minerals. Adding coffee will add even more magnesium, which I'd like to see rise up to about 1g daily to properly balance the high calcium form milk.
Overall, gbolduev has some very good points about the minerals and how they affect each other. I just don't think a person can chase around the ratios all day long and make sure they are right. It is an example of reductionism and we know Peat is against that. More importantly I don't think it's practical. If there is an important ratio, and that is a big IF, it would probably be calcium:magnesium. But rather than calling it a ratio, why not just say make sure you consume at least 1g of calcium and 1g of magnesium every day?
Finally, I would like to hear gbolduev explain in more detail about how high CO2 is bad, and why aspirin is bad for ALL and is a poison given all the benefits both substances have shown in human studies.
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
Haidut,

It has nothing to do with chasing ratios. what I am saying that you need to eat differently for different body chemistry. If you have resp acidosis and you take calcium you will have a major problem and that is a fact. Your potassium in the cell will be zero. and you will be hypothyroid no matter what you do. That is exactly why Peat tells people to take thyroid and progesterone. Progesterone puts potassium into the cell. It is obvious that his diet is imbalanced on the zinc potassium side and he compensates it with external HORMONES))

How is that practical. Taking hormones are insane especially if you dont know what your body chemistry is. For instance for me if I take progesterone I will be in coma. I will be hospitalized at once. Since for my body chemistry it was not right. Most sick people have low ratio of SODIUM to potassium in the cell. If you take too much progesterone that ratio will worsen.

A human needs to eat to what he feels to eat, that is my point and listen to himself. And never eat some made up diets . It looks like Peat created his diet by trial and error add this , add that boom balanced. And then he gave that diet to people? that is insane in my book. His body chemistry is not even close to mine . I have Cushings and if I take salt and progesterone I will be dead. If I lower estrogen I will be dead.If I take progesterone I simply stop breathing


Who says anything about ratios here, were were taking about PH of blood and PH of the cell. If you have too much CO2, it will take potassium out of the cell it will take sodium out of the cell into blood. It will dilute calcium in blood and mangesium in blood into ionized form. They will go into the cell and that will keep your metabolism low so your CO2 production goes down. And until CO2 goes down , your metabolism will be suppressed. If at this time your take salt or potassium or progesterone or b vitamins, that will push sodium and potassium into the cell from blood. Which will create more metabolism and that will create more CO2, the body will need even higher calcium into the cell to fight all your salt progesterone etc.

This body chemistry at which Ray peat is at called 4 highs. It is not ideal at all.

This is common knowledge and every doctor should know this. This is known in every emergency room . Resp acidosis never gets treated by calcium , nor by sodium bicarbonate)))


NO way peat can raise metabolism by raising CO2. Body will fight this with all it has got. Body will try to lower metabolism and keep it low and body will used calcium and magnesium to do that. SO what is the reason for all this calcium in his diet, it is very simple. He does things not correctly and then balances them with tons of calcium that in reality he does not need. He is fairly balanced but I bet you anything if he checks his hair , his balance will not be ideal , not even close. MY assumption, he will be in 4 highs
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
gbolduev said:
Haidut,

It has nothing to do with chasing ratios. what I am saying that you need to eat differently for different body chemistry. If you have resp acidosis and you take calcium you will have a major problem and that is a fact. Your potassium in the cell will be zero. and you will be hypothyroid no matter what you do. That is exactly why Peat tells people to take thyroid and progesterone. Progesterone puts potassium into the cell. It is obvious that his diet is imbalanced on the zinc potassium side and he compensates it with external HORMONES))

How is that practical. Taking hormones are insane especially if you dont know what your body chemistry is. For instance for me if I take progesterone I will be in coma. I will be hospitalized at once. Since for my body chemistry it was not right. Most sick people have low ratio of SODIUM to potassium in the cell. If you take too much progesterone that ratio will worsen.

A human needs to eat to what he feels to eat, that is my point and listen to himself. And never eat some made up diets . It looks like Peat created his diet by trial and error add this , add that boom balanced. And then he gave that diet to people? that is insane in my book. His body chemistry is not even close to mine . I have Cushings and if I take salt and progesterone I will be dead. If I lower estrogen I will be dead.If I take progesterone I simply stop breathing


Who says anything about ratios here, were were taking about PH of blood and PH of the cell. If you have too much CO2, it will take potassium out of the cell it will take sodium out of the cell into blood. It will dilute calcium in blood and mangesium in blood into ionized form. They will go into the cell and that will keep your metabolism low so your CO2 production goes down. And until CO2 goes down , your metabolism will be suppressed. If at this time your take salt or potassium or progesterone or b vitamins, that will push sodium and potassium into the cell from blood. Which will create more metabolism and that will create more CO2, the body will need even higher calcium into the cell to fight all your salt progesterone etc.

This body chemistry at which Ray peat is at called 4 highs. It is not ideal at all.

This is common knowledge and every doctor should know this. This is known in every emergency room . Resp acidosis never gets treated by calcium , nor by sodium bicarbonate)))

OK, a quick question then. If most people have too much CO2 already, then why is it that taking baking soda orally, which raises CO2 even more improved people's performance so much? They feel better both mentally and physically, can run faster for longer, etc.
Yes, you are right that most people have different body chemistries. However, there are some commonalities as well. For instance, CO2 production goes down with age and lactic acid increases. This suggests inefficient metabolism and glycolysis increase with age. Raising CO2 usually provides relief to many people. It is considered as treatment for obesity. And obesity is certainly something very common and based on poor metabolism and endocrine abnormalities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18537527
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17504132
I guess before somebody raises CO2 they should check their CO2 levels and pH, and lactate. But my question for you was how do you determine the proper CO2 levels for each person? Let's say you measure CO2, pH, lactate, electrolytes, etc. How do you calculate the optimal CO2 for a person? Also, wouldn't that level change according to physical state, exercise, nutrition, etc?
I am just having a problem with the world balance when it is not defined more rigidly. If you can provide some insight on that it would be great.
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
IN Arterial blood gases you have ideal CO2 level. PH, bicarbonate. You will see there where your problem is and what your metabolism is. I have respiratory acidosis ,my CO2 is high and my bicarb is high my Ph is lower than ideal. Baking soda is a poison to me. It is good for sports people, since most sports people have metabolic acidosis not respiratory acidosis and low Co2 , not high. Since they constantly hyperventilate.

the ideal level of CO2 does not really change, your activities can change your CO2 level but it will be not ideal. If you hyperventilate in sports , obviously you need to support your metabolism with sugar to keep Co2 coming for oxygen.

When people age, normally CO2 levels go up not down. Since their breathing drive goes down, since most people get copper toxic which lowers their breathing drive. If you check liver of 90% people you will find high copper and high iron in the liver and low copper in tissues. Copper stays in liver , since if you go in resp acidosis --high CO2 state, copper will stay in the liver, since body will take it out of the blood, Copper lowers breathing drive body does not want that. That is why all candida people are copper toxic in the liver, since copper are antifungal , but candida makes so much CO2 taht copper stays in the liver and is not used to kill it. That is why molybdenum or zinc are used against candida, it is not because zinc kills candida, It is because zinc makes copper come out, since zinc converts Co2 into bicarbonate.


Good luck ,

will write more tommorow
 

Suikerbuik

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
700
Gbolduev, what you're saying is interesting, but would you mind referencing sources? I am interested in learning and want to give it a non-jugded view, but I'd rather read studies or books. Some information is conflicting with my current knowlegde - not saying that you're wrong!

Would you also care to elaborate more on those 100 patients? Methods used ,etc?
 

Blossom

Moderator
Forum Supporter
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
11,033
Location
Indiana USA
Suikerbuik said:
Gbolduev, what you're saying is interesting, but would you mind referencing sources? I am interested in learning and want to give it a non-jugded view, but I'd rather read studies or books. Some information is conflicting with my current knowlegde - not saying that you're wrong!

Would you also care to elaborate more on those 100 patients? Methods used ,etc?
I'm interested in this information too. Even in a hospital emergency room where ABG's are typically only done if the physician is expecting an abnormal reading you will still find a few surprisingly normal results- as I've observed from practical experience. The fact that there were ZERO normal ABG results out of the 100 subjects has made me curious to learn more...Thank you in advance!
 

InChristAlone

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
5,955
Location
USA
gbolduev,
Do you do HTMA? And if you know so much about nutrition, why do you have Cushings? Could you say more of acidosis and alkalosis? I didn't understand what you meant by this line: "If you have high bicarb in blood and it is not over 30. That means that in 80% chance you are in respiratory acidosis. If you have bicarb over 30 , then most likely you are in alkalosis." So anything under 30 is actually alkalosis? I had 29 after a panic attack I had been hyperventilating/panicking. My hands seized up for a minute. Anyway, all this is really interesting I knew there was more to the story than just 'get CO2 blood levels up' ....
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
Jannelle.

Cushings is cured only with surgery. I will never have one. Cushings is a mechinical problem with the organ. IN that case you can either balance yourself accordingly or get operated.

Usually if your bicarb is under 30, that means that most likely that is compensation for some kind of acidosis.( usually chronically high CO2 levels ) If your bicarb is above 30. Usually it is a problem with kidneys not being able to excrete it and most likely it is metabolic alkalosis what you have.

The reason for this 30 number is simply kindeys capacity . SO for compensation usually bicarb does not go over 30. and if it is over 30 , ,then most likely it is not a compensation , it is a primary imbalance.


I assume your situation is this:

you have high CO2 in blood in a normal condition. if it is chronic it would be compensated by increased bicarbonate and your blood PH will be normal PH of 7.4. Then if you all of a sudden hyperventilate, CO2 goes down really fast but bicarbonate takes about a day to 3 days to adjust. that is why if you hyperventilate in your condition , you will go into alkalosis which will cause problems with calcium. That is why you see so many cases of panic attacks in the major cities where CO2 levels are extremely high . Since most people there are in resp acidosis compensated by bicarbonate. And when those people hyperventilate , they go into alkalosis really fast which causes shifts in potassium and problems with calcium causing seizures

I think if you take a little manganese , it will slowly lower your CO2 and at the same time, bicarbonate will go down also to 23 24. Then you will have normal CO2 and normal bicarb. So if you ever hyperventilate you PH will be 7.45 at most.

Dont take a lot of manganese since then your CO2 will drop too fast and that will causes the same seizures. The idea to lower CO2 slowly so bicarb adjust . Kidneys are much slower than breathing in adjusting
 

InChristAlone

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
5,955
Location
USA
Thanks for the explanation. Panic attacks are from high environment CO2? this then causes you to hyperventilate? But then why would slowing your breathing down or bag breathing remedy the situation if your body is trying to get rid of the CO2?
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
Panic attack is not from high CO2. Panic attack happens from alkalosis when you hyperventilate and your CO2 drops very low. But before you hyperventilated your CO2 was higher than norm, and that was compensated by bicarbonate. Then all of a sudden your breath out all of your CO2 but bicarb stays high, since it takes days to adjust. And thus you get into alkalosis.

When people have panic attack they will be helped by breathing into the bag since CO2 will go up faster.

But not to have panic attacks at all. You need to lower your base CO2 level , so your bicarb level also stays low. So then when you hyperventilate from stess fear or what ever, even if you breath out all of your Co2, your bicarb would not be high and would not cause alkalosis
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
gbolduev said:
IN Arterial blood gases you have ideal CO2 level. PH, bicarbonate. You will see there where your problem is and what your metabolism is. I have respiratory acidosis ,my CO2 is high and my bicarb is high my Ph is lower than ideal. Baking soda is a poison to me. It is good for sports people, since most sports people have metabolic acidosis not respiratory acidosis and low Co2 , not high. Since they constantly hyperventilate.

the ideal level of CO2 does not really change, your activities can change your CO2 level but it will be not ideal. If you hyperventilate in sports , obviously you need to support your metabolism with sugar to keep Co2 coming for oxygen.

When people age, normally CO2 levels go up not down. Since their breathing drive goes down, since most people get copper toxic which lowers their breathing drive. If you check liver of 90% people you will find high copper and high iron in the liver and low copper in tissues. Copper stays in liver , since if you go in resp acidosis --high CO2 state, copper will stay in the liver, since body will take it out of the blood, Copper lowers breathing drive body does not want that. That is why all candida people are copper toxic in the liver, since copper are antifungal , but candida makes so much CO2 taht copper stays in the liver and is not used to kill it. That is why molybdenum or zinc are used against candida, it is not because zinc kills candida, It is because zinc makes copper come out, since zinc converts Co2 into bicarbonate.


Good luck ,

will write more tommorow

In my experience and observing people in a hospital, older people always have their mouths at least partially open when breathing. So, not sure why they would be high in CO2 given that mouth breathing gets people hyperventilated and exhales more CO2. Yes, their breathing drive goes down, but their metabolism also goes down - often to as low as 40% of what it used to be in their younger years. So, as a net effect older people probably have less CO2 and not more. Many of them are hypoxic too, and this would not happen if they were producing and retaining a lot of CO2. Moreover, older people have brittle bones. One of the few successful treatments for their problem is hypercapnic therapy - giving them either a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor or having them breath 5% CO2. So, something does not add up here. Maybe in your specific case CO2 is in fact bad but overall it would be beneficial maybe?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3034387
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3628257
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3927329
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3125038
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9665810
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3924369

Finally, if you have Cushings then why would taking progesterone kill you? Progesterone (and all other GABA agonists) directly inhibit pituitary release of ACTH, so cortisol production goes down. In Cushings high cortisol directly stimulates aromatase and thus new estrogen synthesis, and estrogen itself stimulates even more cortisol release. Progesterone is a glucocorticoid antagonist, and so is DHEA. Progesterone is also an estrogen antagonist. So, progesterone and DHEA sound like a very viable therapy for Cushings and in fact several drugs on the market for Cushings act like progesterone mimetics, and DHEA has been used separately. High doses of vitamin A and B6 also antagonize cortisol directly. As it happens, vitamin A stimulates progesterone synthesis and vitamin B6 antagonizes estrogen, lowers prolactin and increases dopamine. Dopaminergic drugs like cabergoline and lisuride have also been used for Cushings. Anti-serotonin drugs like cyporheptadine have also been used for Cushings. All of these these things are perfectly in line with what Peat is saying - cortisol, estrogen, serotonin, prolactin ARE bad in excess and stimulate each other synthesis and are typically elevated in pathologic conditions. Have you tested your estrogen, prolactin and serotonin?
 

InChristAlone

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
5,955
Location
USA
Wow thanks for connecting all those dots for me!! no one else in the Peat community has been able to explain bicarb. I hear Diamox keeps bicarb pretty low, so low that people need to watch it otherwise they get too acidic? I am glad we were able to clear this up. Another Peat member "ilovesugar' he also had higher bicarb..... and people are like way to go get it higher! um no.. he felt like crap.. was pretty much in a hyperventilated state all the time.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
gbolduev said:
Panic attack is not from high CO2. Panic attack happens from alkalosis when you hyperventilate and your CO2 drops very low. But before you hyperventilated your CO2 was higher than norm, and that was compensated by bicarbonate. Then all of a sudden your breath out all of your CO2 but bicarb stays high, since it takes days to adjust. And thus you get into alkalosis.

When people have panic attack they will be helped by breathing into the bag since CO2 will go up faster.

But not to have panic attacks at all. You need to lower your base CO2 level , so your bicarb level also stays low. So then when you hyperventilate from stess fear or what ever, even if you breath out all of your Co2, your bicarb would not be high and would not cause alkalosis

So, wouldn't lowering CO2 go hand in hand with lower metabolism? What else would make you set your normal CO2 point to be lower? And if it is lower metabolism, why would that be beneficial?
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
Haidut,


People have their mouth open to breath out CO2, they are trying to hyperventilate since CO2 levels are too high.

I dont have cushings from putuitary otherwise I would have fixed it 10 times already))) I have adenoma on adrenal gland. And progesterone is a precursor to cortisol . I guess you get the scoop.I have extremely low estrogen in blood.

listen I saw the results of people ABGs. People get higher CO2 levels in blood the older they get. And obviously metabolism goes down with it. And the higher CO2 the lower metabolism will be.

Of course I am not talking about everyone. I dont understand why you are arguing about this Co2. It should be different for everyone. For some you need to lower it and for some to raise it. But you dont have to raise or lower CO2, you have to balance it with bicarb based on PH of the blood

PH of the blood and cell should be balanced.

Some people when they get older have low Co2, why is it low? it is low because body lowers it to compensate for lack of bicarbonate. and those people are in metabolic acidosis. And if you raise CO2 in that case , it will make you worse. That is why for those people you raise bicarb, which will automatically raise Co2
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom