Beyond Energy, Matter, Time And Space

Discussion in 'Mind, Sleep, Stress' started by haidut, Jul 23, 2014.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,834
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    Not sure the title NYT chose has anything to do with the body of the article, but the article itself refers to several topics central to Peat's writings. Maybe mainstream science is about to experience a Renaissance of sorts?? One can only hope.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/scien ... .html?_r=0

    "...That, Dr. Nagel proposes, might require another revolution: showing that mind, along with matter and energy, is “a fundamental principle of nature” — and that we live in a universe primed “to generate beings capable of comprehending it.” Rather than being a blind series of random mutations and adaptations, evolution would have a direction, maybe even a purpose. “Above all,” he wrote, “I would like to extend the boundaries of what is not regarded as unthinkable, in light of how little we really understand about the world.” Dr. Nagel is not alone in entertaining such ideas. While rejecting anything mystical, the biologist Stuart Kauffman has suggested that Darwinian theory must somehow be expanded to explain the emergence of complex, intelligent creatures. And David J. Chalmers, a philosopher, has called on scientists to seriously consider “panpsychism” — the idea that some kind of consciousness, however rudimentary, pervades the stuff of the universe."
     
  2. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,367
    I think this is a very healthy thing to be published, but eventually biologists and physicists will have to take this mindset for the big change to really occur. The term "Intelligent Design" and the stigma it bears has been doing lots of damage in this aspect, although perhaps the real cause is the marriage of militant atheism and reductionism. I invite anyone to read the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe for an (in)formal proof of the inescapability of this new mindset.
     
  3. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,834
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    I came upon CTMU more than a decade ago when I was doing studies on IQ and how the author of CTMU has an IQ of 190+, but his life would seem (according to modern standards) anything but befitting the lifestyle of a genius:):
    He has been a bouncer, a rancher, even a thief (I think) but the one consistent thing throughout his experience he said had always been the utmost hostility that he faced when he tried to bring up the subject of "purpose" in biology with some well-known "experts" in the field. Nowadays everything is a career and bringing up a differing point can get you in trouble since it threatens people's "careers" and livelihood. At least, that's how the young are being raised - disagreement is always a personal attack and it may end up costing you your livelihood...
    Anyways, glad that someone else is also reading up on the CTMU, it's definitely very interesting. I wonder if anyone has made comparisons between CTMU and David Bohm's quantum mechanics which he wrote about in "Wholeness and the Implicate Order". Both theories seem pretty close to me.
     
  4. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,367
    I've seen the connection with Bohmian mechanics made a few times, and the man who writes for the Ultranet blog is talking about this and about Roger Penrose at least on Facebook. It's awesome because we are all gaining the same insights making the same connections; the main idea is essentially free of logical gaps so this success is consequential I think.

    Read on for a summary of what happened when Christopher Langan tried to submit a formal proof of his ideas to logic professors for a more public validation. You can see the American "college vs college" model hindering progress just as badly as the more European "free for all":

    *Noesis* #131, p. 10
    Okay, here is a touchy one. We're talking about an earthshaking mathematical proof that I provided to our most illustrious (but pseudonymous) member *after he had agreed in writing to evaluate it*. Want to read the letter? Once you understand that, none of your other points are relevant. The fact is that if he hadn't made this agreement with me, I never would have proven theose theorems for him. Since he's very smart, and I made the proofs simple, I had every right to expect an evaluation (pro or con) within a reasonable period of time. I didn't get it, and naturally wondered why. So I called him. It turned out that he'd had a string of personal and domestic tragedies. I commiserated with him--he seems to be a likable guy--and left him alone for a while. Then I got back in touch. His life was still in a semi-disordered state. So I asked him for an alternate contact. He gave me Professor Frank Cannonito, a retired logician from UC Irvine, and assured me that Frank--whose reputation was already established and secure--would agree to write me a letter promising confidentiality. No big deal, right? This is how academic networking is supposed to be done. So I called Cannonito. The conversation began cordially enough. Then I politely mentioned that our mutual acquaintance had told me that I could expect a letter of confidentiality. At this point, Professor Cannonito abruptly
    underwent a meltdown. *"Now just a minute here!"*, he shouted, *"YOU"RE THE ONE ASKING _ME_ FOR A FAVOR!"* In a calm tone of voice, I agreed with him and told him how appreciative I was. Nevertheless, I explained, since I had invested a year of my time in this proof and was not in a position to recover from its loss or plagiarism, I couldn't risk becoming the victim of an accident or a misunderstanding. Unfortunately, the Professor only became more adamant, going so far as to accuse me of setting him up for a lawsuit. Eventually, I had no choice but to excuse myself and break off the conversation . . . but not before he had provided me with the name of another logic professor. This new professor, one Professor Mendelson, politely informed me that he was too busy on another project to help me. I thianked him and got off the phone. Then I cold-called the math department at SUNY Stonybrook. The responses ranged from polite dismissal to virtual screaming frenzies in defense of a "system" that would collapse if anyone in it ever promised confidentiality to an outsider. By the time I was done, I'd realized that I was dealing with an hysterical self-rationalizing automaton which regards its own structure as a necessary and sufficient reason to operate exclusively for its own advantage . . . a Catch-22 grinding machine that could take a poor little guy like me, pulp him, press him into paper, and print his own ideas on his own dead hide under any name(s) at all provided they ended with the trademark letters "Ph.D." In short, I realized that I was dealing with a sanctimonious and well-organized scam.
     
  5. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,367
  6. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,367
    Here is a (somewhat direct) comparison:

    Mackenzie Andersen: I have no argument with what you are saying and I find that you have a great deal clarity. However I'm wondering why you haven't mentioned David Bohm, since in "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" (1980), he has already described an enfolding and unfolding universe using the descriptors implicate and explicate. He described "all that is" as "undivided wholeness in flowing movement", which seems to be what you are saying.

    CL: The difference is that unlike Professor Bohm, I'm not using poetic license to gloss over the fact that I lack a comprehensive mathematical structure supporting my assertions. When Bohm appealed to his nebulous holographic analogy, he was merely hinting at SCSPL. Don't get me wrong; much of Bohm's work is very insightful. But to make his ideas work, you need a concept called "hology" predicating a distributed endomorphism from the overall informational structure of reality to every internal point of reality as cognitive syntax. This is what expresses the identity of information and cognition I've been referring to as "infocognition" - it's a key characteristic of SCSPL - and you need a whole new model of spacetime to define it. Furthermore, you need a lot of additional logical and mathematical apparatus that Bohm left out of his inspired speculations about quantum nonlocality. This additional apparatus resolves certain longstanding paradoxes to which Bohm apparently devoted little of his thought and energy.
     
  7. pboy

    pboy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,681
    dude...yoda already brought this to light back in the 70's
     
  8. narouz

    narouz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,429
    Such...
    you know I've kinda glanced at that CTMU abbreviation on your posts
    and just free-associatively had it in my head
    that you were enrolled at Central Michigan University. :)
    Guess the CTMU thing is slightly different... :lol:
     
  9. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,367
    I went to a community college a hundred miles from there last year. However I'm not sure you can compare Detroitean brick and asphalt with the National Parks of the peninsula :mrgreen:
     
  10. bradley

    bradley Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    219
    Gender:
    Male
    Started researching Nagel after reading this. Has anyone read Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False ?

    His idea of life's natural progression towards consciousness parallels the observations of energy creating structure/novelty. Curious of Ray's thoughts on consciousness as an end goal of the universe.
     
  11. narouz

    narouz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,429
    So...you really were in the Central Michigan University region of the world?!
    What a weird coincidence with my weirdly mistaken notion! :eek:
     
  12. pboy

    pboy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,681
    I was joking with the yoda quote, but its a real phenomenon known to many people throughout all history. Star wars was largely based on Daoism and Tibetan/Chinese/hindu philosophy and history. Even Yoda's voice is clearly a mimic of the dalai lama
     
  13. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,367
    Well, how many people came to that conclusion throughout history and how objectively can we say materialism is superior? Perhaps they can apply one of their regression analyses to that.
     
  14. Spokey

    Spokey Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    312
    Star wars does reference a lot of things including eastern philosophies and mysticism, but I don't think that necessarily implies a deep understanding of their cannons by the directors because as much as I enjoyed the films (iv, v and vi anyway), I wince every time I hear Qi Gong Jin's name pronounced that way. And I'm not quite sure I'm ready to accept the Dalai Lama sounds like Kermit and Gonzo's love child.

    Actually I find the philosophy of the Jedi is almost completely diametric to Daoism. The Jedi creed is a repressive philosophy, it's about subjugating impulses. But Daoism talks a lot about 'te' which can loosely translated as integrity or being true to one's essential nature. They're all about accepting and embracing our natures. In weird way, it has more in common with Star Wars's 'dark side' than the Jedi. Even Zen is ultimately about this type of acceptance, though it takes a different route and often get's encumbered with painful disciplines.

    But um, it's still worth the popcorn.

    It's funny how these ideas often get co-opted by materialist thought though. For example Apple's Steve Jobs was involved in Zen. It's an irony that a figure head for arguably one of the worlds most materialistic organisations would do that. On top that he was a crazy extreme Vegan too. It's almost as if being materialistically successful beyond most peoples wildest imaginings wasn't enough to be happy or something.
     
  15. narouz

    narouz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,429
    Sorry I know a bit off track, but...

    What do you guys think one would do,
    from a Peat view,
    if one learned one had what Jobs had...?
     
  16. Blossom

    Blossom Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    8,310
    Gender:
    Female
    Maybe give up veganism, drink some milk and sign up on the Ray Peat Forum..... :lol:
     
  17. Spokey

    Spokey Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    312
    He had a very rare type of pancreatic islet cell cancer. Apparently his doctor begged him to eat more protein. I remember thinking this was probably good advice at the time I read it but I can't remember why exactly.
     
  18. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,367
    Because he raw juiced vegetables and lived off that, probably. Steve Jobs teaches us (unwillingly?) that something like LSD can give you a love of simplicity, but if you think that it will give you all the tools then you need a reality check. I think if you look at Shaolin monks, they seem to employ a kind of what we would call subjugation in their progression. Our view is too superficial to usefully handle the topic.
     
  19. Spokey

    Spokey Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    312
    Shaolin is founded in a Buddhist thought (not Daoism), buddhism is subject to a lot of practices schools of extreme and repressive disciplines are numerous. Not that hard disciplines don't exist in Daoism either, it's just philosophically they are different.

    I'm lucky enough to have experienced both cultures so it's not too hard for me to talk about it meaningfully.
     
  20. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,367
    Do these schools maintain a rationale throughout the course of these extremes? It seems like accessing the core ideals could be prohibitive on some levels but they do seem quite natural in their ways.
     
Loading...