Beyond DHT (article)

[tallglass13]

Thanks Haidut for your input, its always exciting to get your thoughts on things... Was wondering if a 3BHSD blocker would be of help to regrow hair, since DHEA uses that enzyme to turn into androstendiol?

 

[haidut]

Thanks Haidut for your input, its always exciting to get your thoughts on things... Was wondering if a 3BHSD blocker would be of help to regrow hair, since DHEA uses that enzyme to turn into androstendiol?

That enzyme is also responsible for turning pregnenolone into progesterone, I would not block it. The enzyme turning DHEA into androstenediol is 17b-HSD but that one is also needed for converting androstenedione into testosterone. So, also not good to block it unless you can ensure it is only blocked in scalp and not elsewhere.
Keeping the body in an oxidized state with high NAD/NADH ratio would be more appropriate. Topical progesterone on the scalp also acts like oxidizing agent and Peat has recommended that approach already.

 

[Progesterone]

That enzyme is also responsible for turning androstenedione into testosterone, I would not block it. Keeping the body in an oxidized state with high NAD/NADH ratio would be more appropriate. Topical progesterone on the scalp also acts like oxidizing agent and Peat has recommended that approach already.

Hi haidut,

What kind of topical progesterone would you say should work better...

A progesterone with Vit E (which we know absorbs well) or perhaps Simply Progesterone's version of progesterone/alcohol?

I assume for long hair, the progesterone/alcohol product may be a home run?

I do worry about how much absorption is lost without the added Vit E.

It sure would be a LOT less messy and easier to use daily however (progesterone/alcohol).

Your thoughts, please.? :)

 

[haidut]

Hi haidut,

What kind of topical progesterone would you say should work better...

A progesterone with Vit E (which we know absorbs well) or perhaps Simply Progesterone's version of progesterone/alcohol?

I assume for long hair, the progesterone/alcohol product may be a home run?

I do worry about how much absorption is lost without the added Vit E.

It sure would be a LOT less messy and easier to use daily however (progesterone/alcohol).

Your thoughts, please.? :)

I don't know how much progesterone is absorbed when dissolved in pure ethanol. This would be a question for HealthNatura. The alcohol version would probably be more convenient for long hair to avoid making an oily mess but it would depend on how much is absorbed.

 

[Dante]

Thanks Haidut for your input, its always exciting to get your thoughts on things... Was wondering if a 3BHSD blocker would be of help to regrow hair, since DHEA uses that enzyme to turn into androstendiol?

-deleted-

 

[Dante]

@Dante
It feels grounding at 1% in a perfume.

Stupid question but what does grounding feel like ?

 

[Progesterone]

I don't know how much progesterone is absorbed when dissolved in pure ethanol. This would be a question for HealthNatura. The alcohol version would probably be more convenient for long hair to avoid making an oily mess but it would depend on how much is absorbed.

Thanks for the reply, haidut.

What do you think of this..

Alcohol-based gels[edit]
Although studies of topical progesterone that delivered the hormone in the form of a cream or water-based gel found only very low levels of progesterone in circulation, a preliminary study of 100 mg/day topical progesterone formulated in an alcohol-based gel observed luteal-phase levels of progesterone with peak concentrations of 8 ng/mL.[1][2]Though based on limited data, these findings suggest that alcohol-based progesterone gels may yield relatively high levels of circulating progesterone.[1][2] One possible explanation for the difference is that progesterone creams are more lipophilic and may have a preference for uptake into the fatty layer under the skin whereas alcohol-based gels are more water-soluble and may rapidly distribute into the microcirculation of the skin and then into the general circulation.[2]

To me this seems positive, especially for topical use on the scalp in MPB as you want the progesterone to go deep down into the dermis and ideally into the DP to exert it's 5-ar effect.

Thoughts?

 

[healthnatura]

I began offering the alcohol solution "Simply Progesterone Clear" on request for folks who needed a product free of MCT and E. In my opinion, this is the main deciding factor for individuals. As far as I know, both have similar absorption profiles with negligible differences at low doses. At higher doses, alcohol gels do seem to work better. However, Simply Progesterone Clear is not a gel, and the alcohol evaporates very quickly. My personal opinion is, that this characteristic may reduce how deeply the progesterone will penetrate before it evaporates, so it most likely will be absorbed into the most superficial levels of the skin and consequently, will tend to have more local effects than systemic absorption. Many people take both products by mouth as well, you may see differences when used this way, because of the increased water solubility of the alcohol solution. Note: if you take the alcohol solution by mouth do not add it to water before consumption, it WILL, come out of solution because progesterone is not soluble directly in water. It is only soluble in fatty solvents like some oils and crossover solvents like alcohol that are soluble in both oils and water.

Simply Progesterone Serum, is the original formula in E and MCT, and does penetrate more deeply into the dermal layers however, because it is an oil solution, will preferentially be taken up by the fatty tissues first. This doesn't necessarily cause a problem because the body actively transports hormones on an as needed basis. While I haven't done any double blind studies, on a clinical level, I haven't seen many instances where there was an appreciable difference in efficacy other than ingredient sensitivity or biological preference noted through muscle testing.

Both formulas are saturated solutions, but have different saturation levels.
Simply Progesterone Clear provides 1 mg per drop.
Simply Progesterone Serum provides 3 mg per drop.

You will notice, that the prices are the same for each, despite the differences in concentration. The cost differences for materials varies just a little, but the labor and equipment costs are higher for alcohol.

Hope that helps,
Peter

 

[TubZy]

Thanks for the reply, haidut.

What do you think of this..

Alcohol-based gels[edit]
Although studies of topical progesterone that delivered the hormone in the form of a cream or water-based gel found only very low levels of progesterone in circulation, a preliminary study of 100 mg/day topical progesterone formulated in an alcohol-based gel observed luteal-phase levels of progesterone with peak concentrations of 8 ng/mL.[1][2]Though based on limited data, these findings suggest that alcohol-based progesterone gels may yield relatively high levels of circulating progesterone.[1][2] One possible explanation for the difference is that progesterone creams are more lipophilic and may have a preference for uptake into the fatty layer under the skin whereas alcohol-based gels are more water-soluble and may rapidly distribute into the microcirculation of the skin and then into the general circulation.[2]

To me this seems positive, especially for topical use on the scalp in MPB as you want the progesterone to go deep down into the dermis and ideally into the DP to exert it's 5-ar effect.

Thoughts?

Many of us here don't believe the hair benefits from progestereone are from the 5ARi effects but maybe the pro metabolic and repairing mechanism that progestererone has (just like if you use it topically on your face).

 

[TubZy]

I began offering the alcohol solution "Simply Progesterone Clear" on request for folks who needed a product free of MCT and E. In my opinion, this is the main deciding factor for individuals. As far as I know, both have similar absorption profiles with negligible differences at low doses. At higher doses, alcohol gels do seem to work better. However, Simply Progesterone Clear is not a gel, and the alcohol evaporates very quickly. My personal opinion is, that this characteristic may reduce how deeply the progesterone will penetrate before it evaporates, so it most likely will be absorbed into the most superficial levels of the skin and consequently, will tend to have more local effects than systemic absorption. Many people take both products by mouth as well, you may see differences when used this way, because of the increased water solubility of the alcohol solution. Note: if you take the alcohol solution by mouth do not add it to water before consumption, it WILL, come out of solution because progesterone is not soluble directly in water. It is only soluble in fatty solvents like some oils and crossover solvents like alcohol that are soluble in both oils and water.

Simply Progesterone Serum, is the original formula in E and MCT, and does penetrate more deeply into the dermal layers however, because it is an oil solution, will preferentially be taken up by the fatty tissues first. This doesn't necessarily cause a problem because the body actively transports hormones on an as needed basis. While I haven't done any double blind studies, on a clinical level, I haven't seen many instances where there was an appreciable difference in efficacy other than ingredient sensitivity or biological preference noted through muscle testing.

Both formulas are saturated solutions, but have different saturation levels.
Simply Progesterone Clear provides 1 mg per drop.
Simply Progesterone Serum provides 3 mg per drop.

You will notice, that the prices are the same for each, despite the differences in concentration. The cost differences for materials varies just a little, but the labor and equipment costs are higher for alcohol.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Thanks..I think it might be interesting adding a few drops of the simply progesterone serum (alcohol version) to a bottle of Solban...double the benefit for skin and hair without having to use anything oily.

 

[Progesterone]

I began offering the alcohol solution "Simply Progesterone Clear" on request for folks who needed a product free of MCT and E. In my opinion, this is the main deciding factor for individuals. As far as I know, both have similar absorption profiles with negligible differences at low doses. At higher doses, alcohol gels do seem to work better. However, Simply Progesterone Clear is not a gel, and the alcohol evaporates very quickly. My personal opinion is, that this characteristic may reduce how deeply the progesterone will penetrate before it evaporates, so it most likely will be absorbed into the most superficial levels of the skin and consequently, will tend to have more local effects than systemic absorption. Many people take both products by mouth as well, you may see differences when used this way, because of the increased water solubility of the alcohol solution. Note: if you take the alcohol solution by mouth do not add it to water before consumption, it WILL, come out of solution because progesterone is not soluble directly in water. It is only soluble in fatty solvents like some oils and crossover solvents like alcohol that are soluble in both oils and water.

Simply Progesterone Serum, is the original formula in E and MCT, and does penetrate more deeply into the dermal layers however, because it is an oil solution, will preferentially be taken up by the fatty tissues first. This doesn't necessarily cause a problem because the body actively transports hormones on an as needed basis. While I haven't done any double blind studies, on a clinical level, I haven't seen many instances where there was an appreciable difference in efficacy other than ingredient sensitivity or biological preference noted through muscle testing.

Both formulas are saturated solutions, but have different saturation levels.
Simply Progesterone Clear provides 1 mg per drop.
Simply Progesterone Serum provides 3 mg per drop.

You will notice, that the prices are the same for each, despite the differences in concentration. The cost differences for materials varies just a little, but the labor and equipment costs are higher for alcohol.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Thank you so much Peter for the detailed reply. :)

 

[Progesterone]

I began offering the alcohol solution "Simply Progesterone Clear" on request for folks who needed a product free of MCT and E. In my opinion, this is the main deciding factor for individuals. As far as I know, both have similar absorption profiles with negligible differences at low doses. At higher doses, alcohol gels do seem to work better. However, Simply Progesterone Clear is not a gel, and the alcohol evaporates very quickly. My personal opinion is, that this characteristic may reduce how deeply the progesterone will penetrate before it evaporates, so it most likely will be absorbed into the most superficial levels of the skin and consequently, will tend to have more local effects than systemic absorption. Many people take both products by mouth as well, you may see differences when used this way, because of the increased water solubility of the alcohol solution. Note: if you take the alcohol solution by mouth do not add it to water before consumption, it WILL, come out of solution because progesterone is not soluble directly in water. It is only soluble in fatty solvents like some oils and crossover solvents like alcohol that are soluble in both oils and water.

Simply Progesterone Serum, is the original formula in E and MCT, and does penetrate more deeply into the dermal layers however, because it is an oil solution, will preferentially be taken up by the fatty tissues first. This doesn't necessarily cause a problem because the body actively transports hormones on an as needed basis. While I haven't done any double blind studies, on a clinical level, I haven't seen many instances where there was an appreciable difference in efficacy other than ingredient sensitivity or biological preference noted through muscle testing.

Both formulas are saturated solutions, but have different saturation levels.
Simply Progesterone Clear provides 1 mg per drop.
Simply Progesterone Serum provides 3 mg per drop.

You will notice, that the prices are the same for each, despite the differences in concentration. The cost differences for materials varies just a little, but the labor and equipment costs are higher for alcohol.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Hi Peter,

Just got your progesterone(s) bottles.

Really appreciated how well they were packaged, just great.

Product itself, is amazing.

I've used Progest-E in the past (2014) and then started using these commercial solid white progesterone products.

Last night for the first time I used the Progesterone Serum 3mg per drop, on lips, in mouth, testicles..

Feelings of extreme relaxation just like I had with Progest-E.

The serum itself is a million times better than Progest-E for me because it's not as thick (and messy!!!) like Progest-E is.

Peter, please let me know where you would like me to post other positive reviews and I will be glad to do so. Very very impressed with the product already I know from experience of trying quite a few brands of progesterone these past few years that yours is Grade A top notch stuff, the best I've tried, I doubt there is better available.

I do have a few questions for you, if you don't mind..

1. Using progesterone orally vs topically on skin results in 90% absorption VS 20% or so - is this correct? (Also please clarify, is orally just applying on mucous membranes i.e lips, gums, tongue, and leaving it sit, or is it swallowing it right away, or both?)

2. Does using the progesterone orally provide the most dramatic relaxation effect? (Related to question #1, and I would assume if higher absorption then the answer should be yes)

3. There is a guy on another forum, who stopped his hairloss dead in it's tracks AND got thickening of hair as well, by simply using 100mg of NATURAL ORAL PROGESTERONE in pill form (I can find out the exact brand if it helps, it is prescription stuff) At first he was using 1 pill EOD, now he uses it once a day at night. My question is, to replicate this, is it possible with your serum progesterone? What would be the best course of action, method of dosing? I've always heard only 10% of a progesterone pill gets absorbed, so better to use topically, however we cannot argue with results. Would it perhaps be best, in terms of replication... to simply swallow the serum progesterone? What would you recommend? Would you recommend applying directly on scalp, on the areas of hair loss? That is less ideal to me as it would seem a bit messy but if you think that's best I would give it a shot.

4. Have you heard of or seen anyone with results in terms of using progesterone for hair loss? I am mostly referring to maintaining hair and not regrowing. Also, curious what do you think the method of action is in which progesterone is helpful for hair loss (male pattern baldness). Is it it's 5-ar inhibitor properties? Or it's various other properties.. maybe a combination of things?

Thanks!

 

[TubZy]

As far as I know the author is the OP, aka "Marcel" .

Yeah, but, I'm no longer associated with them though, basically got scammed unfortunately, and didn't like the his strategy (i.e. doing anything possible to make a quick buck)
No longer associated with Anabolic Apex

 

[Wagner83]

Interesting because he got booted out of anabolicmen as he apparently copied and pasted many of Ali's articles.

 

[TubZy]

Interesting because he got booted out of anabolicmen as he apparently copied and pasted many of Ali's articles.

Yeah he did if you look at his content, I think he is still banned from multiple sites like those too specifically for copying them if you read the Anabolic Men forum.

Just listen to his podcasts you can tell he has literally no idea what he is talking about and reading off a piece of paper word for word with long giant pauses in between each sentence.

 

[Progesterone]

Yeah, but, I'm no longer associated with them though, basically got scammed unfortunately, and didn't like the his strategy (i.e. doing anything possible to make a quick buck)
No longer associated with Anabolic Apex

Welp.

 

[chimdp]

Thanks..I think it might be interesting adding a few drops of the simply progesterone serum (alcohol version) to a bottle of Solban...double the benefit for skin and hair without having to use anything oily.

@TubZy Did you ever end up trying this? I have an extra bottle of Solban laying around and just bought Health Natura's Simply Progesterone serum. I was going to run an experiment with this as topical regimen for hair loss. Any thoughts on the concentration/mg's of prog per 5 sprays?

 

[meatbag]

@TubZy Did you ever end up trying this? I have an extra bottle of Solban laying around and just bought Health Natura's Simply Progesterone serum. I was going to run an experiment with this as topical regimen for hair loss. Any thoughts on the concentration/mg's of prog per 5 sprays?

Might want to try adding a small amount to water to see what happens before dumping a good amount in and wasting money