Best way to lower acetylcholine?

[Dr. B]

Since creatine needs SAM-e to be made and the body also synthesizes its own choline as needed using SAM-e, taking creatine may spare SAM-e which can then be used to make more choline endogenously via PEMT.

do you know what else is used to make creatine? on wikiepdia it lists arginine, methionine, and glycine. you have to delve deeper into the stuff to find out about choline and SAM-e. i didnt know about SAM-e. what else is used to manufacture creatine endogenously, and does supplementing creatine, especially the typical recommended dosage of 5 grams a day, does supplementing creatine then cause an excess of those other 3 amino acids and SAME and choline? i know 'excess' depends on whether the body needs or not, but Peat doesnt really like arginine and methionine, and even choline, he just wants to get the minimum requirements of those and limit them?
glycine can counteract methionine but im not sure how much of creatine is glycine and methionine. but ive had similar effects from supplementing creatine, as supplementing choline bitartrate.
what nutrients are used to create choline? what about folate, can that be synthesized? i heard choline can take over some of folates functions if you dont have enough folate intake

 

[redsun]

do you know what else is used to make creatine? on wikiepdia it lists arginine, methionine, and glycine. you have to delve deeper into the stuff to find out about choline and SAM-e. i didnt know about SAM-e. what else is used to manufacture creatine endogenously, and does supplementing creatine, especially the typical recommended dosage of 5 grams a day, does supplementing creatine then cause an excess of those other 3 amino acids and SAME and choline? i know 'excess' depends on whether the body needs or not, but Peat doesnt really like arginine and methionine, and even choline, he just wants to get the minimum requirements of those and limit them?
glycine can counteract methionine but im not sure how much of creatine is glycine and methionine. but ive had similar effects from supplementing creatine, as supplementing choline bitartrate.
what nutrients are used to create choline? what about folate, can that be synthesized? i heard choline can take over some of folates functions if you dont have enough folate intake

You need glycine, arginine and methionine to make creatine. But its not methionine you use, it has to become SAM-e to make creatine.

Methylation (which makes SAM-e) is used for a lot of bodily processes including creatine synthesis so if you provide creatine endogenously your body won't have to use SAM-e as much to make it and thus SAM-e may be spared. Creatine you get from meat is the same story. Choline and methionine/arginine are vital, you don't want to minimize these nutrients. You are not going to get "excess" just because you take creatine.

 

[Dr. B]

You need glycine, arginine and methionine to make creatine. But its not methionine you use, it has to become SAM-e to make creatine.

Methylation (which makes SAM-e) is used for a lot of bodily processes including creatine synthesis so if you provide creatine endogenously your body won't have to use SAM-e as much to make it and thus SAM-e may be spared. Creatine you get from meat is the same story. Choline and methionine/arginine are vital, you don't want to minimize these nutrients. You are not going to get "excess" just because you take creatine.

yeah but i thought there was a big discussion thread on here talking about how methylation increases cancer risk and you dont want to be an over methylator. Peat likes limiting methylation to just the minimum needed for body processes and good liver function iirc? like he likes high choline foods like liver, milk, eggs but im not sure he would want to supplement any of those. i think hes said betaine and same he doesnt like supplementing cuz they can cause excess methylation. im not sure his views on creatine but hes mentioned limiting methionine... and i think others on here said limiting arginine is good since its pro nitric oxide! and Peats article mentioned estrogen also increases choline or acetylcholine activity so less is needed from diet or something? could the excess cholinergic activity from excess estrogen be what causes those effects like acne, hair loss etc?!

but creatine would have a sparing effect on arginine, methionine/same, glycine and choline correct? I guess "excess" is a relative concept

i have gotten many overlapping effects from creatine and choline supplementation... like a minor hair loss effect, sweating easier, oilier skin and hair, more anxiety than usual, and also some mild strength improvements in the gym. I think somewhere it said excess choline can cause dry mouth? im not sure if i had a drier mouth or eyes.

 

[Dr. B]

You need glycine, arginine and methionine to make creatine. But its not methionine you use, it has to become SAM-e to make creatine.

Methylation (which makes SAM-e) is used for a lot of bodily processes including creatine synthesis so if you provide creatine endogenously your body won't have to use SAM-e as much to make it and thus SAM-e may be spared. Creatine you get from meat is the same story. Choline and methionine/arginine are vital, you don't want to minimize these nutrients. You are not going to get "excess" just because you take creatine.

Hey man one more thing, I heard creatine also boosts phosphate levels in the body. i think this was on selfhacked or another health site like healthline. what mechanism does it do this by, and wouldnt this mean it is essentially raising PTH and causing strain on the kidneys? i heard PTH inhibiting drugs and phosphate lowering drugs help any kidney issues... I think in dannys recent podcast, haidut said that sermaglide or something is used as AIDS treatment and it reduces phosphate in the body, which fructose, niacinamide, and a few other things also do?

Ray said that young bone is made of calcium carbonate and as you age or eat little calcium the calcium in bone gets replaced with phosphate. So how valuable is phosphate exactly, isn't it needed for ATP, and creatines pro ATP effect is related to its increase in phosphate levels somehow? And if phosphate is needed for ATP could phosphate lowering supplements like niacinamide and fructose/sugar cause ATP to lower, or go too low, particularly if your diet is a mostly dairy/milk diet where calcium intake is already like 1.3 times or more as much as phosphorus? Ray also stated that lactose helps the absorption of calcium and probably other nutrients.
I thought bones are a calcium phosphate mix but i guess this is only aging bones, apparently in younger bones its calcium carbonate, maybe a lower phosphate diet, along with vitamin d3 can encourage the bones to remain as calcium carbonate!

 

[redsun]

yeah but i thought there was a big discussion thread on here talking about how methylation increases cancer risk and you dont want to be an over methylator. Peat likes limiting methylation to just the minimum needed for body processes and good liver function iirc? like he likes high choline foods like liver, milk, eggs but im not sure he would want to supplement any of those. i think hes said betaine and same he doesnt like supplementing cuz they can cause excess methylation. im not sure his views on creatine but hes mentioned limiting methionine... and i think others on here said limiting arginine is good since its pro nitric oxide! and Peats article mentioned estrogen also increases choline or acetylcholine activity so less is needed from diet or something? could the excess cholinergic activity from excess estrogen be what causes those effects like acne, hair loss etc?!

but creatine would have a sparing effect on arginine, methionine/same, glycine and choline correct? I guess "excess" is a relative concept

i have gotten many overlapping effects from creatine and choline supplementation... like a minor hair loss effect, sweating easier, oilier skin and hair, more anxiety than usual, and also some mild strength improvements in the gym. I think somewhere it said excess choline can cause dry mouth? im not sure if i had a drier mouth or eyes.

Yeh overmethylation is not good but I don't think creatine will increase the risk of overmethylation. Choline definitely won't. Choline is primarily used for other things cell membranes and acetylcholine synthesis.

You shouldnt supplement SAM-e, betaine, or methionine unless you have symptoms of undermethylation. These if taken for long periods of time can lead to overmethylation.

Its actually more important for men to get plenty of choline from their diet because they have less estrogen. Estrogen does increase PEMT so since men have less of it they make less choline endogenously.

Profuse sweating, oily hair and skin, increased anxiety can be due to high acetylcholine activity. You shouldnt have to supplement choline since animal protein and eggs daily should give plenty. Ach increases tears and saliva production, doesn't reduce them.

Hey man one more thing, I heard creatine also boosts phosphate levels in the body. i think this was on selfhacked or another health site like healthline. what mechanism does it do this by, and wouldnt this mean it is essentially raising PTH and causing strain on the kidneys? i heard PTH inhibiting drugs and phosphate lowering drugs help any kidney issues... I think in dannys recent podcast, haidut said that sermaglide or something is used as AIDS treatment and it reduces phosphate in the body, which fructose, niacinamide, and a few other things also do?

Ray said that young bone is made of calcium carbonate and as you age or eat little calcium the calcium in bone gets replaced with phosphate. So how valuable is phosphate exactly, isn't it needed for ATP, and creatines pro ATP effect is related to its increase in phosphate levels somehow? And if phosphate is needed for ATP could phosphate lowering supplements like niacinamide and fructose/sugar cause ATP to lower, or go too low, particularly if your diet is a mostly dairy/milk diet where calcium intake is already like 1.3 times or more as much as phosphorus? Ray also stated that lactose helps the absorption of calcium and probably other nutrients.
I thought bones are a calcium phosphate mix but i guess this is only aging bones, apparently in younger bones its calcium carbonate, maybe a lower phosphate diet, along with vitamin d3 can encourage the bones to remain as calcium carbonate!

I don't know of a mechanism by which creatine increases phosphate absorption or retention. This is the first time I am hearing of this. Doubt its true.

Personally I dont think Ca/P ratio in the diet is as important as getting enough calcium through the diet daily (irrelevant of phosphorus).

Your bones need to have calcium phosphate. Its suppose to be like that eventually. Its just newly formed bone is carbonate and as it matures it is calcium phosphate.

 

[Dr. B]

Yeh overmethylation is not good but I don't think creatine will increase the risk of overmethylation. Choline definitely won't. Choline is primarily used for other things cell membranes and acetylcholine synthesis.

You shouldnt supplement SAM-e, betaine, or methionine unless you have symptoms of undermethylation. These if taken for long periods of time can lead to overmethylation.

Its actually more important for men to get plenty of choline from their diet because they have less estrogen. Estrogen does increase PEMT so since men have less of it they make less choline endogenously.

Profuse sweating, oily hair and skin, increased anxiety can be due to high acetylcholine activity. You shouldnt have to supplement choline since animal protein and eggs daily should give plenty. Ach increases tears and saliva production, doesn't reduce them.



I don't know of a mechanism by which creatine increases phosphate absorption or retention. This is the first time I am hearing of this. Doubt its true.

Personally I dont think Ca/P ratio in the diet is as important as getting enough calcium through the diet daily (irrelevant of phosphorus).

Your bones need to have calcium phosphate. Its suppose to be like that eventually. Its just newly formed bone is carbonate and as it matures it is calcium phosphate.

isnt choline and even folate both considered 'methyl donors'. betaine as in trimethylglycine itself, isnt that oxidized choline or something.
ah yeah. im wondering if thats why people under stress should be avoiding choline type supplements? like i only get hair loss type symptoms from creatine, when my metabolism is lower. when i had a faster metabolism, no symptoms no issues from creatine. hair loss effect also occurs with vitamin k2 high dose, and choline bitartrate supplementation. never used choline supps with a faster metabolism, but likewise with creatine when i had a faster metabolism, no noticeable hair loss from k2 nor creatine.

in many disease states estrogen is elevated which would mean choline productions also elevated right?
i forgot to add, creatine and choline supps specifically cause an increase of acne and its seemingly in the upper forehead area, as well as shoulder and upper back area!

creatine has some effect on ATP, it increases ATP, maybe only in the muscle and i think thats related to why/how it increases phosphate. the self hacked site claimed creatines increasing of phosphate is responsible for the stomach/GI effects some people get from creatine.

i think i was looking into over/under methylation and iirc folate, b6, b12, betaine and choline and methionine can all help to convert homocysteine back to cysteine or get rid of it somehow?

what are your thoughts on fructose and niacinamide supplementation, could these dangerously lower phosphate and cause side effects on their own. I mean the pure white sugar and supplement as I assume food products with fructose/niacinamide have some other balancing factors. like milk contains calcium and phosphorus and vitamin A. if phosphates needed for bone maintenance couldnt fructose and niacinamide cause bone weakening

 

[redsun]

isnt choline and even folate both considered 'methyl donors'. betaine as in trimethylglycine itself, isnt that oxidized choline or something.
ah yeah. im wondering if thats why people under stress should be avoiding choline type supplements? like i only get hair loss type symptoms from creatine, when my metabolism is lower. when i had a faster metabolism, no symptoms no issues from creatine. hair loss effect also occurs with vitamin k2 high dose, and choline bitartrate supplementation. never used choline supps with a faster metabolism, but likewise with creatine when i had a faster metabolism, no noticeable hair loss from k2 nor creatine.

in many disease states estrogen is elevated which would mean choline productions also elevated right?
i forgot to add, creatine and choline supps specifically cause an increase of acne and its seemingly in the upper forehead area, as well as shoulder and upper back area!

creatine has some effect on ATP, it increases ATP, maybe only in the muscle and i think thats related to why/how it increases phosphate. the self hacked site claimed creatines increasing of phosphate is responsible for the stomach/GI effects some people get from creatine.

i think i was looking into over/under methylation and iirc folate, b6, b12, betaine and choline and methionine can all help to convert homocysteine back to cysteine or get rid of it somehow?

what are your thoughts on fructose and niacinamide supplementation, could these dangerously lower phosphate and cause side effects on their own. I mean the pure white sugar and supplement as I assume food products with fructose/niacinamide have some other balancing factors. like milk contains calcium and phosphorus and vitamin A. if phosphates needed for bone maintenance couldnt fructose and niacinamide cause bone weakening

Choline can be used as a methyl donor if oxidized to betaine but thats not its main use. So the vast majority of choline you consume will be used for acetylcholine and phospholipids. Its not a major source of methyl donors though it would provide a small amount. Choline is good if you are chronically stressed (helps reduce sympathetic overactivation).

I know I have seen a few people mention hairloss from high dose K2 but I dont know the mechanism. I assume its calcium related though.

Androgens increase sebum production, thus more oily skin and more clogged pores, increasing acne. Niacinamide and fructose wont lower phosphate to dangerously low levels. I think they generally lower phosphate by utilizing it.

B6 is needed to turn homocysteine to cysteine and/or taurine.

B12/folate, B2, are needed to convert homocysteine back into methionine. Most b-vitamins are involved in that actually.

 

[pubh12]

It can happen due to low dopamine or low dopamine sensitivity and also high serotonin. I de say proper thyroid function is what works best. A natural but hard way to fix dopamine sensitivity is a detox of high dopamine habits. Besically, gaming, masturbation and music, while focusing on hard mental things (learn a new skill). Trust me this works wonders.

Are you saying high serotonin can indirectly cause high aceytlcholine? This could explain a lot for me who has carcinoid levels of high serotonin

 

[Peater]

Depends on your understaning of sweating "a lot".

How did you get on with the Oxybutynin? It's something I struggle with too, I haven't found anything consistently effective yet.