Best/safest Form Of Supplemental Magnesium?

[tara]

And here is an interesting blog article about magnesium deficiency
and, for one thing, it's possible relationship to thyroid problems.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/2010/05/19/magnesium/

(BTW, I believe maybe tara mentioned tooth difficulties. And Charlie has too.
There is a bit in the article about magnesium deficiency and problems with teeth, FWIW)

Yes I have had lots of tooth troubles. I'm supplementing mag glycinate at the moment, intend to try the mag. bicarb. when mag. hydroxide arrives, on the theory that it is more easily absorbed.

Reading Janie's article, a few thoughts came to mind.
If I've understood things right:
Low thyroid function makes it harder to retain magnesium in the cells where we want it, and to chuck out the excess calcium, which we don't want in the cells.
Magnesium is necessary for efficient metabolism in cells.
Deprivation of sugar can cause the liver to produce less T3 from T4. Extended deprivation can increase Reverse T3 production, which blocks T3.
Janie: " [lowered ...] metabolism (I have to eat like a mouse, even on desiccated thyroid)".
There are always many angles on what its going on, and it is often not clear what the key factor is, but in this case, it could be that magnesium deficiency is key, and that with mag. supplementation her metabolism will increase. And/or, it could also be that starvation is keeping her metabolism suppressed even with thyroid supps (NDT - some of the T4 could be getting converted to RT3), and this is making it hard to retain sufficient magnesium. And/or there could be other factors - this is just what jumped out at me.
Follow up on what effects the mag. supplementing had would be interesting - didn't find it if it's there. I haven't read much on her site, so there might be other info there with a bearing on this.

 

[BingDing]

I just found MoM with nothing but water at Walgreen's (their own brand). It's only the small bottle though, the larger one has sodium hypochlorite.

I've read some good things about mag bicarb, too.

 

[lindsay]

I just found MoM with nothing but water at Walgreen's (their own brand). It's only the small bottle though, the larger one has sodium hypochlorite.

I've read some good things about mag bicarb, too.

Cool. Thanks BingDing! I'm sure there's a Walgreens somewhere near me. Will have to take a looksy!! In the meantime, I've just been drinking more espresso, which seems to help - nothing can stop me from sleeping in this crappy winter weather, so that's at least good!

 

[lindsay]

And here is an interesting blog article about magnesium deficiency
and, for one thing, it's possible relationship to thyroid problems.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/2010/05/19/magnesium/

(BTW, I believe maybe tara mentioned tooth difficulties. And Charlie has too.
There is a bit in the article about magnesium deficiency and problems with teeth, FWIW)

In the last Peat interview, a caller asked an off-topic question
which was very interesting to me.

He asked, on behalf of his wife I believe, about what could cause a change
in ability to utilize thyroid supplements--
I think in his wife's case it was T4 & T3, Cynoplus, as I recall.
He said his wife had done well on the supps for a while
then rather suddenly couldn't tolerate them.
I can't remember what symptoms constituted this intolerance
(forgive me if I'm not perfectly accurate in my memory of the discussion,
but I do have the minute mark in the interview where the discussion occurs...in my notes...)

Peat said he had seen difficulties of that sort caused by magnesium deficiency.
I'd heard/read Peat mention this relationship before, but this latest discussion re-emphasized it to me.
He mentioned specific amounts of magnesium per T4 or T3 needed.

This intriqued me because I've experienced something like this myself over the past half year or better:
doing great on T4/T3 in rather high amounts,
then...doing badly.
I had tried some magnesium supps, but not perhaps in the volume or of the nature required.
Never tried the topical route, which I will (see my other post above).

I remember this interview Narouz. Sometimes I think Ray Peat's emphasis on calcium should be shifted more towards magnesium - especially for hypothyroid people. Hypothyroid people can't handle calcium the same without adequate magnesium and K2 - another reason I find hard cheeses superior to milk and only drink my milk with espresso.

For those of you on here who want an easy way to boost your magnesium intake, switch to espresso instead of coffee. Look at the magnesium level difference via cronometer and be amazed. I bought a cheap espresso machine purely for this reason.

Also, eating salt is important for retaining magnesium. Ask RP about supplementing magnesium and he'll just tell you to eat adequate salt.

I tried transdermal magnesium once and it made my skin burn - I much prefer epsom salt baths. However, reading that article made me realize that ditching a magnesium supplement is probably a good idea (although I'm curious to try the bicarbonate mix). Getting it from food or espresso is a much better way to get that mineral, I think. Lately I've been drinking more espresso and eating a good amount of cooked kale. It definitely helps.

 

[johns74]

Adequate copper retains magnesium.

Calcium protects from excess copper. So consume a lot of calcium, then adequate copper, and the latter will help retain magnesium.

 

[narouz]

I remember this interview Narouz. Sometimes I think Ray Peat's emphasis on calcium should be shifted more towards magnesium - especially for hypothyroid people. Hypothyroid people can't handle calcium the same without adequate magnesium and K2 - another reason I find hard cheeses superior to milk and only drink my milk with espresso.

For those of you on here who want an easy way to boost your magnesium intake, switch to espresso instead of coffee.

Some good thoughts, Lindsay.
Thanks.
Could you talk a little more about those ideas on
calcium for hypothyroid people (me)?
I haven't heard Peat talk about calcium posing a problem for us hypos....

 

[narouz]

I just posted this over on the Zechstein magnesium thread,
but I thought I'd also post it here to find if anyone else has experienced this:

I read somewhere online a few months back
that cravings for chocolate could indicate a magnesium deficiency.

I added a lot of magnesium supplements to my diet,
and, sure enough, my chocolate cravings almost completely abated.

 

[lindsay]

I remember this interview Narouz. Sometimes I think Ray Peat's emphasis on calcium should be shifted more towards magnesium - especially for hypothyroid people. Hypothyroid people can't handle calcium the same without adequate magnesium and K2 - another reason I find hard cheeses superior to milk and only drink my milk with espresso.

For those of you on here who want an easy way to boost your magnesium intake, switch to espresso instead of coffee.

Some good thoughts, Lindsay.
Thanks.
Could you talk a little more about those ideas on
calcium for hypothyroid people (me)?
I haven't heard Peat talk about calcium posing a problem for us hypos....

If the body is stressed, cells cannot necessarily properly handle calcium. In Ray Peat's book (from PMS to Menopause), he mentions that a high calcium diet can be bad for someone with high estrogen because under the influence of estrogen, calcium is deposited in the soft tissue of the bone. Which is strange because he regularly tells women to drink lots of milk, even if they are in menopause.

He doesn't directly talk about calcium posing a problem per se, but my own experiences with it were that it made me feel terrible to drink too much milk. It seemed to bring out my estrogen dominance more than help it and that didn't change until I started taking thyroid and my cells stopped retaining so much fluid.

If calcium is not balanced properly with other vitamins and minerals (like K2 and magnesium), I think it can be problematic for some. I tolerate milk in coffee, but not as well on it's own. I've heard others on Peatarian say that they handle hard cheese better than milk - at first I thought it was due to the liquid content, but then hard cheeses also have more K2 in them.

So, I think it's more the getting well balanced nutrients that's important. I found some studies awhile back about calcium and magnesium, but I'd have to dig them up. But I noticed a more dramatic effect adding K2 and more magnesium into my diet (especially in how my teeth felt, which is a good indicator of bone health), then just by having calcium on its own.

And just like you, when I started getting more magnesium into my diet, my chocolate cravings vanished.

 

[narouz]

Thanks, lindsay.
Interesting on the chocolate cravings!

On the calcium--thanks for the input from that Peat book.
That's one I haven't read.

I'd started supplementing calcium because
generally Peat seems to recommend it as a key element to increase metabolism.
Maybe there is indeed a special caveat for hypothyroid people.
It would be a good question for Peat.

 

[honeybee]

I am drinking mag chloride that I make from flakes and h20. Very effective. Seems to be bioavailable both oral and dermal. Tastes awful tho. I find it very effective as a deodorant but it can stain some fabrics.

 

[lindsay]

Thanks, lindsay.
Interesting on the chocolate cravings!

On the calcium--thanks for the input from that Peat book.
That's one I haven't read.

I'd started supplementing calcium because
generally Peat seems to recommend it as a key element to increase metabolism.
Maybe there is indeed a special caveat for hypothyroid people.
It would be a good question for Peat.

No problem :) I think that calcium is very important, but I'm not sure 2,000 mg is what people need, especially from milk, which is fluid loaded - something that can be problematic in and of it self for the hypo person. Nowadays, I probably drink 1 or 2 cups of milk and have a few oz. of cheese for my calcium. I've also started adding in some well cooked greens (like kale) from time to time - great magnesium and calcium source.

I've heard some people say that they cannot tolerate milk, but they can tolerate hard cheeses. I am not sure why, but it's something to consider IF you notice issues with milk. I don't even like milk - unless it's in coffee or made into a custard or pudding or something. So I stopped trying to drink so much of it. If I crave it, I drink it. But I much prefer a good cheddar :)

 

[artemis]

Lindsay, have you found a good brand of cheese (one that uses only animal rennet) ?

 

[Stilgar]

I use ionic magnesium, with no ill effect, but I don't exactly know what it is :?

Oh, just read the bottle and it is ionised mag chloride.

Anyone know if ionisation is just bogus sales talk?

 

[lindsay]

Lindsay, have you found a good brand of cheese (one that uses only animal rennet) ?

Artemis - yes I have. I have found lots of them, but I live in the US and have a Whole foods nearby. You can find lots of cheeses there (made in the US or Europe) which contain just animal rennet or say "enzymes" - which is usually a better label than "vegetarian enzymes". Trader Joe's also has some good cheeses made with animal rennet - and usually at very affordable prices.

As for brands, I think KerryGold cheese should be fine. Or Trader Joe's cheeses - just check the labels.

Although, I'm sure I've had cheeses made with veggie enzymes and I didn't have much trouble with them. I just prefer to buy the stuff made with animal rennet.

 

[ddjd]

Is magnesium oxide ok?

 

[HDD]

From-
http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges

Magnesium

"Getting enough sodium in the diet helps to retain magnesium, but both of them are lost easily when thyroid function is low; when the thyroid status is good, the requirement for magnesium is easily met by ordinary foods. The things I most often recommend for magnesium are the water from boiling greens such as beet, chard, turnip and kale, and coffee. Magnesium carbonate is a very good supplement, except that it can cause intestinal irritation. People tell me that they don't have bowel irritation from magnesium glycinate. Either Mg chloride or Mg sulfate with baking soda can be absorbed through the skin.

Both carbonate and glycine are beneficial in themselves, but each of the compounds has its own impurities. Supplements of citrate have other effects on metabolism, that could be harmful.

I haven't tried magnesium salicylate, but most magnesium compounds have been seriously irritating to my intestine; I have mixed baking soda with salicylic acid, and it seems similar to aspirin. If the magnesium doesn't cause irritation, it would be a good form of salicylate. Magnesium salicylate is popular for arthritis, and it releases salicylic acid in the intestine and blood.

Cooked green leaves, or the water they were boiled in, is a very good source of magnesium, with other minerals in safe ratio. Coffee is another good magnesium source.Over 72 trace minerals from the Great Salt Lake, with 99% of the salt removed, would be dirty salt, without the salt.

I don't recommend the oxide, because it's very poorly absorbed, but the carbonate is well absorbed. I don't recommend chemical supplements of magnesium, though, because they all contain some manufacturing impurities that can cause bowel inflammation, such as hemorrhoids. Well cooked greens are very good sources, coffee and chocolate are, too.

[RDA for magnesium] With the average diet, that amount is enough. Good thyroid function, and plenty of calcium, potassium, and sodium can decrease the amount of magnesium needed."

 

[tara]

If you don't want additives from MoM, you can buy pure magnesium hydroxide and mix with water/carbonated water to make your own Mg biCarbonate

http://purebulk.com/magnesium-hydroxide-powder/
http://www.afibbers.org/Wallerwater.pdf

I'm going to try this. Sale at purebulk ends 11.59 pm 27 Nov.

Do you know if there is any reason to first mix the mag. hydroxide powder with water to make MoM before mixing with carbonated water? Or would it work just as well to add the corresponding amount of powder straight into the bottle of carbonated water? Seems simpler.

Sounds reasonable to me. And if there is extra white stuff settling at the bottom of the bottle after shaking, you probably just need to add more carbonated water. I measured my dose out to 1g of Mg[OH]2 per liter of carbonated water which is ~400mg of Magnesium. and drank about a liter a day. Be careful about overdoing it though, you can certainly take too much Mg and this is a highly absorbable form.

I've now tried both ways. They both seem to work as far as combining with the carbon dioxide and making the bottle shrink inward. Both methods were also similarly effective in getting lots of overflow when I added them into the bottle. I added c. 1tsp to c. 1 1/4 l soda water, and still had some powder settle to the bottom even after several shake-up-and-waits. I only drink a little per day - variable but less than 300ml; less than 400mg mag from this form.

 

[lindsay]

From-
http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges

Magnesium

"Getting enough sodium in the diet helps to retain magnesium, but both of them are lost easily when thyroid function is low; when the thyroid status is good, the requirement for magnesium is easily met by ordinary foods. The things I most often recommend for magnesium are the water from boiling greens such as beet, chard, turnip and kale, and coffee. Magnesium carbonate is a very good supplement, except that it can cause intestinal irritation. People tell me that they don't have bowel irritation from magnesium glycinate. Either Mg chloride or Mg sulfate with baking soda can be absorbed through the skin.

Both carbonate and glycine are beneficial in themselves, but each of the compounds has its own impurities. Supplements of citrate have other effects on metabolism, that could be harmful.

I haven't tried magnesium salicylate, but most magnesium compounds have been seriously irritating to my intestine; I have mixed baking soda with salicylic acid, and it seems similar to aspirin. If the magnesium doesn't cause irritation, it would be a good form of salicylate. Magnesium salicylate is popular for arthritis, and it releases salicylic acid in the intestine and blood.

Cooked green leaves, or the water they were boiled in, is a very good source of magnesium, with other minerals in safe ratio. Coffee is another good magnesium source.Over 72 trace minerals from the Great Salt Lake, with 99% of the salt removed, would be dirty salt, without the salt.

I don't recommend the oxide, because it's very poorly absorbed, but the carbonate is well absorbed. I don't recommend chemical supplements of magnesium, though, because they all contain some manufacturing impurities that can cause bowel inflammation, such as hemorrhoids. Well cooked greens are very good sources, coffee and chocolate are, too.

[RDA for magnesium] With the average diet, that amount is enough. Good thyroid function, and plenty of calcium, potassium, and sodium can decrease the amount of magnesium needed."

I've tried lots of forms of magnesium and although the bicarbonate was very good and effective for helping with constipation, I still come back to espresso and occasionally making soups with lots of magnesium (like borsch with kale, instead of cabbage). Mostly because I like eating magnesium rich foods more than I like supplementing and with soups, you get the salt component, which is beneficial.

 

[j_davis]

Why is magnesium carbonate so hard to buy, at least in the uk. It seems the least popular option but peat says it's the best?

 

[jyb]

Why is magnesium carbonate so hard to buy, at least in the uk. It seems the least popular option but peat says it's the best?

No, it's easy to find. I could share a source in PM. Now I only supplement with a hot bath (or feet bath), but when I looked for oral supps I tried both Mg carbonate and bisglycinate.