Best proxy for measuring endotoxin load?

[TheBeard]

I recently heard @haidut talk about this on DR's podcast.
He mentioned there is a lab test one can do to measure the endotoxin load in the blood.

I will obviously perform a complete liver panel to assess the basics on my carnivore diet. I have no doubt my enzyme values will be much less elevated than they were prior to it, as I feel a lot better and clearer.

If someone recalls what blood test Georgi was talking about, I would appreciate.

 

[Lokzo]

Great thread, following.

"Finding endotoxin in plasma is not always a mistake (concordant results using independent assays make this unlikely), but knowing its significance is often difficult. Plasma LPS can be a marker for the presence of Gram-negative bacteria in tissue or blood or for bacterial translocation, but none of the available assays shows conclusively that the LPS molecules detected in plasma are able to stimulate host cells in vivo. Despite decades of study, how this endotoxin contributes to clinical phenomena remains for future workers to discover."

Endotoxemia—menace, marker, or mistake?

Review on the properties of LPSs and how in vivo interactions with host molecules influence both the bioactivity of circulating endotoxin and quantitation ex vivo.Endotoxemia is in its scientific ascendancy. Never has blood-borne, Gram-negative bacterial ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[yerrag]

I've been trying to figure out endotoxins myself.

I assume endotoxins we (and Ray) speak of are mainly gut-based. Not that none exist in the blood vessels, which is very well associated with septicemia (but septicemia happens more with very sick people, where their endothelial cells start to degenerate and release endotoxins from the plaque, plaque being a protectiive mechanism like sweeping dust under the rug)

Endotoxins translocate from the gut to the blood vessels, but do gut bacteria? I assume more endotoxins do than gut bacteria.

If so, I would check my CBC and see if I have a high monocyte count and a low neutrophil count. That can be an indications of high endotoxin load. But it's not a certainty. A low neutrophil count means low bacterial presence in the blood vessels, which means that if monocytes (from which macrophages come from, and which are activated by endotoxins (but nor just endotoxins)) are high, there's a good chance the source of the endotoxins come from the gut, and not internally (from the blood vessels or intracellularly). But I would not be so certain on this as macrophages are also activated by inflammation and by toxins other than endotoxins.

Another way I believe I could have high endotoxin load is when I have stools that are pasty. The more pasty the more endotoxins I have. The closer it is to being diarrhea, the more endotoxins. This isn't to say it's all attributable to endotoxins, as bacteria is also implicated (and why not- as endotoxins come from bacteria, albeit the gram-negative kind).

The colon walls absorbs a lot of water from the colon back into the blood. If the gut stew is filled with endotoxins, the healthy gut wall doesn't want to take in the liquid. So very dirty gut stew = diarrhea. Very clean gut slew = solid stools and ghost wipe, and little or no smell.

 

[Mito]

A Lab Test For Endotoxin Exposure, And Its Role In HIV/AIDS

While I was researching some other topics related to the article on statins and TLR4 that I posted last week, I stumbled upon a biomarker called "soluble CD14" or sCD14 for short. CD14 - Wikipedia As it turns out, sCD14 is a biomarker for systemic endotoxin load. The importance of soluble CD14...

raypeatforum.com

Benadryl And Cyproheptadine Protect From Endotoxin Poisoning

Some people on the forum have posted that they have increased red blood count (RBC) on their lab tests. Other people chimed in that this may be due to high testosterone. However, after listening to one of Peat's interviews where he said that "anything that creates hypoxia will increase RBC" I...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Korven]

In some mice studies I've seen LPS-binding protein (LBP) used to measure endotoxin (for instance Lingonberries alter the gut microbiota and prevent low-grade inflammation in high-fat diet fed mice). Not sure if that's available at your standard labs though.

Another way to track endotoxin load would be markers of gut inflammation like calprotectin. Low calprotectin = low gut inflammation = low endotoxin load. I've seen carnivores report their calprotectin going from above 1000 to below 50.

Endotoxin is a problem but there are also other microbial components/byproducts that can trigger an inflammatory response through PRRs + D-lactate, ammonia etc. And it seems like high saturated fat diets will pull LPS into the lymph and transiently increase levels, but the net effect is still anti-inflammatory. Going by symptoms are likely the best way to judge whether your diet is inflammatory, or anti-inflammatory.

Same experience as you @TheBeard, carnivore makes me the least sick of all diets so I'm sticking with that for now. The difference in mood and well-being from cutting out starch is really profound.

 

[TheBeard]

I've been trying to figure out endotoxins myself.

I assume endotoxins we (and Ray) speak of are mainly gut-based. Not that none exist in the blood vessels, which is very well associated with septicemia (but septicemia happens more with very sick people, where their endothelial cells start to degenerate and release endotoxins from the plaque, plaque being a protectiive mechanism like sweeping dust under the rug)

Endotoxins translocate from the gut to the blood vessels, but do gut bacteria? I assume more endotoxins do than gut bacteria.

If so, I would check my CBC and see if I have a high monocyte count and a low neutrophil count. That can be an indications of high endotoxin load. But it's not a certainty. A low neutrophil count means low bacterial presence in the blood vessels, which means that if monocytes (from which macrophages come from, and which are activated by endotoxins (but nor just endotoxins)) are high, there's a good chance the source of the endotoxins come from the gut, and not internally (from the blood vessels or intracellularly). But I would not be so certain on this as macrophages are also activated by inflammation and by toxins other than endotoxins.

Another way I believe I could have high endotoxin load is when I have stools that are pasty. The more pasty the more endotoxins I have. The closer it is to being diarrhea, the more endotoxins. This isn't to say it's all attributable to endotoxins, as bacteria is also implicated (and why not- as endotoxins come from bacteria, albeit the gram-negative kind).

The colon walls absorbs a lot of water from the colon back into the blood. If the gut stew is filled with endotoxins, the healthy gut wall doesn't want to take in the liquid. So very dirty gut stew = diarrhea. Very clean gut slew = solid stools and ghost wipe, and little or no smell.

Hey Yerrag,

In my personal experience stool shape and consistency don't match with endotoxin load, at least from a "feel" perspective.

I've been battling SIBO and candida overgrowth for now close to 5 years, and I know instantly if my endotoxin is high by the nausea, loss of appetite, weight loss, loss of nitrogen in the muscles and lactic acid pains.

Whenever my diet was fiber rich, I would have 2 solid BM/day, perfectly formed, not smelly the slighest, ghost wipe, easy.

However I'd be extremely bloated, with headaches and nausea.
The gut bacteria was being fed like crazy.

Now on no-fiber diet, it's looser stool and often diarrhea, but the endotoxin symptoms have never been so distant.

 

[TheBeard]

In some mice studies I've seen LPS-binding protein (LBP) used to measure endotoxin (for instance Lingonberries alter the gut microbiota and prevent low-grade inflammation in high-fat diet fed mice). Not sure if that's available at your standard labs though.

Another way to track endotoxin load would be markers of gut inflammation like calprotectin. Low calprotectin = low gut inflammation = low endotoxin load. I've seen carnivores report their calprotectin going from above 1000 to below 50.

Endotoxin is a problem but there are also other microbial components/byproducts that can trigger an inflammatory response through PRRs + D-lactate, ammonia etc. And it seems like high saturated fat diets will pull LPS into the lymph and transiently increase levels, but the net effect is still anti-inflammatory. Going by symptoms are likely the best way to judge whether your diet is inflammatory, or anti-inflammatory.

Same experience as you @TheBeard, carnivore makes me the least sick of all diets so I'm sticking with that for now. The difference in mood and well-being from cutting out starch is really profound.

Thanks for the report

 

[TheBeard]

Maybe @haidut himself could chime in to mention the blood test that reveals how to measure endotoxin load.

 

[yerrag]

Hey Yerrag,

In my personal experience stool shape and consistency don't match with endotoxin load, at least from a "feel" perspective.

I've been battling SIBO and candida overgrowth for now close to 5 years, and I know instantly if my endotoxin is high by the nausea, loss of appetite, weight loss, loss of nitrogen in the muscles and lactic acid pains.

Whenever my diet was fiber rich, I would have 2 solid BM/day, perfectly formed, not smelly the slighest, ghost wipe, easy.

However I'd be extremely bloated, with headaches and nausea.
The gut bacteria was being fed like crazy.

Now on no-fiber diet, it's looser stool and often diarrhea, but the endotoxin symptoms have never been so distant.

I didn't know your situation is more complex. Having SIBO and Candida is a different set of circumstances. I've thought it over and can't explain any of that. You've certainly tried many things and I hope you can figure it out, sooner than later. It's a real pain to go through it.

Hope you'll be able to flick that switch soon that puts a light on the muddling through going on!

 

[Nomane Euger]

I recently heard @haidut talk about this on DR's podcast.
He mentioned there is a lab test one can do to measure the endotoxin load in the blood.

I will obviously perform a complete liver panel to assess the basics on my carnivore diet. I have no doubt my enzyme values will be much less elevated than they were prior to it, as I feel a lot better and clearer.

If someone recalls what blood test Georgi was talking about, I would appreciate.

he was refering to a lab test called CD14 or SCD14,thats what you are looking for

 

[GelatinGoblin]

I've been trying to figure out endotoxins myself.

I assume endotoxins we (and Ray) speak of are mainly gut-based. Not that none exist in the blood vessels, which is very well associated with septicemia (but septicemia happens more with very sick people, where their endothelial cells start to degenerate and release endotoxins from the plaque, plaque being a protectiive mechanism like sweeping dust under the rug)

Endotoxins translocate from the gut to the blood vessels, but do gut bacteria? I assume more endotoxins do than gut bacteria.

If so, I would check my CBC and see if I have a high monocyte count and a low neutrophil count. That can be an indications of high endotoxin load. But it's not a certainty. A low neutrophil count means low bacterial presence in the blood vessels, which means that if monocytes (from which macrophages come from, and which are activated by endotoxins (but nor just endotoxins)) are high, there's a good chance the source of the endotoxins come from the gut, and not internally (from the blood vessels or intracellularly). But I would not be so certain on this as macrophages are also activated by inflammation and by toxins other than endotoxins.

Another way I believe I could have high endotoxin load is when I have stools that are pasty. The more pasty the more endotoxins I have. The closer it is to being diarrhea, the more endotoxins. This isn't to say it's all attributable to endotoxins, as bacteria is also implicated (and why not- as endotoxins come from bacteria, albeit the gram-negative kind).

The colon walls absorbs a lot of water from the colon back into the blood. If the gut stew is filled with endotoxins, the healthy gut wall doesn't want to take in the liquid. So very dirty gut stew = diarrhea. Very clean gut slew = solid stools and ghost wipe, and little or no smell.

I go by this aswell

 

[GelatinGoblin]

@TheBeard @Korven How's the Cortisol/Adrenaline on Carnivore?

 

[yerrag]

I go by this aswell

It's good to know I'm not the only one.

 

[Nomane Euger]

I've been trying to figure out endotoxins myself.

I assume endotoxins we (and Ray) speak of are mainly gut-based. Not that none exist in the blood vessels, which is very well associated with septicemia (but septicemia happens more with very sick people, where their endothelial cells start to degenerate and release endotoxins from the plaque, plaque being a protectiive mechanism like sweeping dust under the rug)

Endotoxins translocate from the gut to the blood vessels, but do gut bacteria? I assume more endotoxins do than gut bacteria.

If so, I would check my CBC and see if I have a high monocyte count and a low neutrophil count. That can be an indications of high endotoxin load. But it's not a certainty. A low neutrophil count means low bacterial presence in the blood vessels, which means that if monocytes (from which macrophages come from, and which are activated by endotoxins (but nor just endotoxins)) are high, there's a good chance the source of the endotoxins come from the gut, and not internally (from the blood vessels or intracellularly). But I would not be so certain on this as macrophages are also activated by inflammation and by toxins other than endotoxins.

Another way I believe I could have high endotoxin load is when I have stools that are pasty. The more pasty the more endotoxins I have. The closer it is to being diarrhea, the more endotoxins. This isn't to say it's all attributable to endotoxins, as bacteria is also implicated (and why not- as endotoxins come from bacteria, albeit the gram-negative kind).

The colon walls absorbs a lot of water from the colon back into the blood. If the gut stew is filled with endotoxins, the healthy gut wall doesn't want to take in the liquid. So very dirty gut stew = diarrhea. Very clean gut slew = solid stools and ghost wipe, and little or no smell.

do you think the "very clean gut slew" could reach a point where you feel almost constipated as you do not go to the toilets very often,and its very dry?

 

[yerrag]

do you think the "very clean gut slew" could reach a point where you feel almost constipated as you do not go to the toilets very often,and its very dry?

I think that would happen if I were deficient in magnesium. As losing a lot of bacteria would mean lowering serotonin levels, and since serotonin drives bowel movement, lowering it could cause constipation. But with enough magnesium to provide the energy for peristalsis, or the contraction of intestinal muscles, there would be bowel movement.

 

[Nomane Euger]

I think that would happen if I were deficient in magnesium. As losing a lot of bacteria would mean lowering serotonin levels, and since serotonin drives bowel movement, lowering it could cause constipation. But with enough magnesium to provide the energy for peristalsis, or the contraction of intestinal muscles, there would be bowel movement.

whats the importance of walking for bowel movement from your experience?

 

[PolishSun]

If it stinks badly...

 

[GelatinGoblin]

whats the importance of walking for bowel movement from your experience?

Always have great bowel movements after walking regularly

 

[yerrag]

whats the importance of walking for bowel movement from your experience?

Had not needed to make the effort to walk to enable bowel movement. Having enough magnesium stores enables peristalsis.

 

[Korven]

@TheBeard @Korven How's the Cortisol/Adrenaline on Carnivore?

Should mention that I do include fruit/fruit juice/honey to mitigate some of the cortisol spikes. Based on my symptoms adrenaline has gone way down since eating this way.