Best Protocol To Treat Undermethylation?

[chinup53]

I have been displaying sympthoms of undermethylation / histadelia (see the image below) basically all my life, specially the ones that best describe myself are "self-motivated during school years", "history of perfectionism and high accomplishment", "seasonal inhalant allergies" and "excess saliva". Additionally, I'm suffering PE which I think it may be correlated with undermethylation.

Which supplements or practices (preferably "peaty") would you recommend to treat the condition?. I have been doing some research and I have found that these may help:

• methylfolate
  
• pyridoxyl-5-phosphate (P5P)
  
• Trimethylglycine (TMG)
  
• Methionine
• SAM-e

Which of those or which protocal would be ideal to treat the condition?

Thanks.

 

[gately]

Well considering methylfolate (or any kind of folate, including excess folate in your diet) is literally the worst possible thing you could ingest if you're truly a histadelic, I could suggest a few things:

1 - Start doing a lot more research. Because a genuine histadelic taking some methylfolate could have been an extremely dire mistake.

2 - Consult a professional who deals with orthomolecular psychiatry, perhaps even Dr. Mensah in Chicago who's link is at the bottom of the image you posted--who I have personally met and is probably good enough at his job, but absurdly expensive and quite egotistical--so you don't make a simple yet potentially catastrophic mistake like the above.

3 - Barring that, such as in the case where you are unable to to consult with an orthomolecular psychiatrist for whatever reason. You would need to actually diagnose whether you are histadelic, not just off a list of fairly common and broad symptoms, but by getting a histamine blood test. If it's high, and the symptoms match to a large degree, then there's a solid chance you are histadelic, and it might be worth your time exploring how to treat it on your own. If you have confirmed you have high blood histamine, match the symptoms, and can't consult with a qualified practitioner (even online) due to finances, then I would reiterate my first piece of advice: do more research. For starters, I would read Nutrition and Mental Illness by Carl C. Pfeiffer, so you can see what one of the original and proven protocols for Histadelia looked like in detail.

To my recollection, the traditional approach to lowering high blood histamine was based around:

- L-Methionine
- B6
- Calcium
- Zinc

And then in recent years the ortho-psych folks starting using SAM-E to to speed up the process, at least in the first phase of treatment.

Anything else you're coming up with via research online, without first talking to an orthomolecular psychiatrist, is taking a pretty big gamble. Methylation is not something you want to mess around with. To be honest taking any of those things, even if you suspect you have histadelia and have high blood histamine is a pretty big gamble. Messing with zinc and B6 is dangerous for a variety of reasons. Supplemental calcium, especially in the wrong form, is dangerous. L-Methionine is probably unhealthy, from a Ray Peat perspective at least.

So in a nutshell: don't self-treat if you can help it. Find qualified help. And if you have to self-treat, be extremely cautious.

 

[gately]

Also, forgot some other key points to remember when treating Histadelia, that aren't always mentioned in orthomolecular circles:

- Don't overeat protein, eat only what you require.
- Don't eat anything high in histamine, don't eat anything fermented or aged at all.
- Be mindful of synthetic folic acid added to breads and things. You need to avoid that if you're truly a histadelic.

Good luck.

 

[mostlylurking]

A few years ago, my doctor evaluated me and told me that I was a low methylator. I thought I felt fine, although I had a history of having maybe 90% of the symptoms on your list. I emailed Ray Peat for advice. He told me that he does not believe in doing things to increase methylation.

I remember in one of his interviews, Ray Peat said that "low methylators" don't get cancer. I don't remember which interview it was, sorry. Here is a list of Ray's articles that mention methylation: Programmable Search Engine I don't think Ray believes "chemically modifying" DNA (methylation) is necessarily a good thing because that can mean turning off your own genes; turning off your anticancer gene might not be a good idea. Demethylation is also a thing that should be researched and considered.

When I mentioned "demethylation' to the doctor I got a deer in the headlights reaction and no verbal response. I was left with the feeling that the doctor was trying to sell me some supplements to fatten her pocketbook. I chose to ignore my doctor's advice.

I changed doctors and got my thyroid medication optimized, thereby increasing the dosage 100%. Now I take 180 mg of Acella brand natural desiccated thyroid daily. I no longer have any symptoms of allergies, whereas before I was highly allergic to most foods and air borne allergens and had severe chemical sensitivities. Normal thyroid function stabilizes blood sugar. Low blood sugar is a common symptom of hypothyroidism. Low blood sugar causes severe reactions to allergens. It is helpful to understand Ray Peat's ideas about sugar. Here's a list of his articles on sugar: Programmable Search Engine.

The ideas of "stabilized blood sugar" and "normal thyroid function" aren't nearly as mysteriously exciting as "increasing methylation". The idea that normal blood sugar might solve allergies doesn't fit in well with a Paleo diet and being a fat burner which seem to be extremely popular with doctors now. Most doctors have never heard of the Randle cycle. See here: Programmable Search Engine

The symptoms that you listed above that I had went away when I got my thyroid medication optimized. No more circular thinking, no more obsessive compulsive disorder, no more anxiety, etc. It was the hypothyroidism that was the problem.

"PE"? Pulmonary Embolism? See this search: Programmable Search Engine

 

[Recoen]

A few years ago, my doctor evaluated me and told me that I was a low methylator. I thought I felt fine, although I had a history of having maybe 90% of the symptoms on your list. I emailed Ray Peat for advice. He told me that he does not believe in doing things to increase methylation.

I remember in one of his interviews, Ray Peat said that "low methylators" don't get cancer. I don't remember which interview it was, sorry. Here is a list of Ray's articles that mention methylation: Programmable Search Engine I don't think Ray believes "chemically modifying" DNA (methylation) is necessarily a good thing because that can mean turning off your own genes; turning off your anticancer gene might not be a good idea. Demethylation is also a thing that should be researched and considered.

When I mentioned "demethylation' to the doctor I got a deer in the headlights reaction and no verbal response. I was left with the feeling that the doctor was trying to sell me some supplements to fatten her pocketbook. I chose to ignore my doctor's advice.

I changed doctors and got my thyroid medication optimized, thereby increasing the dosage 100%. Now I take 180 mg of Acella brand natural desiccated thyroid daily. I no longer have any symptoms of allergies, whereas before I was highly allergic to most foods and air borne allergens and had severe chemical sensitivities. Normal thyroid function stabilizes blood sugar. Low blood sugar is a common symptom of hypothyroidism. Low blood sugar causes severe reactions to allergens. It is helpful to understand Ray Peat's ideas about sugar. Here's a list of his articles on sugar: Programmable Search Engine.

The ideas of "stabilized blood sugar" and "normal thyroid function" aren't nearly as mysteriously exciting as "increasing methylation". The idea that normal blood sugar might solve allergies doesn't fit in well with a Paleo diet and being a fat burner which seem to be extremely popular with doctors now. Most doctors have never heard of the Randle cycle. See here: Programmable Search Engine

The symptoms that you listed above that I had went away when I got my thyroid medication optimized. No more circular thinking, no more obsessive compulsive disorder, no more anxiety, etc. It was the hypothyroidism that was the problem.

"PE"? Pulmonary Embolism? See this search: Programmable Search Engine

Another great response! Will you please share what your diet looks like too?

 

[gately]

A few years ago, my doctor evaluated me and told me that I was a low methylator. I thought I felt fine, although I had a history of having maybe 90% of the symptoms on your list. I emailed Ray Peat for advice. He told me that he does not believe in doing things to increase methylation.

I remember in one of his interviews, Ray Peat said that "low methylators" don't get cancer. I don't remember which interview it was, sorry. Here is a list of Ray's articles that mention methylation: Programmable Search Engine I don't think Ray believes "chemically modifying" DNA (methylation) is necessarily a good thing because that can mean turning off your own genes; turning off your anticancer gene might not be a good idea. Demethylation is also a thing that should be researched and considered.

When I mentioned "demethylation' to the doctor I got a deer in the headlights reaction and no verbal response. I was left with the feeling that the doctor was trying to sell me some supplements to fatten her pocketbook. I chose to ignore my doctor's advice.

I changed doctors and got my thyroid medication optimized, thereby increasing the dosage 100%. Now I take 180 mg of Acella brand natural desiccated thyroid daily. I no longer have any symptoms of allergies, whereas before I was highly allergic to most foods and air borne allergens and had severe chemical sensitivities. Normal thyroid function stabilizes blood sugar. Low blood sugar is a common symptom of hypothyroidism. Low blood sugar causes severe reactions to allergens. It is helpful to understand Ray Peat's ideas about sugar. Here's a list of his articles on sugar: Programmable Search Engine.

The ideas of "stabilized blood sugar" and "normal thyroid function" aren't nearly as mysteriously exciting as "increasing methylation". The idea that normal blood sugar might solve allergies doesn't fit in well with a Paleo diet and being a fat burner which seem to be extremely popular with doctors now. Most doctors have never heard of the Randle cycle. See here: Programmable Search Engine

The symptoms that you listed above that I had went away when I got my thyroid medication optimized. No more circular thinking, no more obsessive compulsive disorder, no more anxiety, etc. It was the hypothyroidism that was the problem.

"PE"? Pulmonary Embolism? See this search: Programmable Search Engine

He’s referring to Premature Ejaculation, which was thought to be a symptom of undermethylation by orthomolecular psychiatrists.

The problem OP is facing is there is a large difference between what undermethylation meant to an orthomolecular psychiatrist and what it has come to mean in the modern sense, hence why he is getting conflicting info...such as folate.

 

[Amazoniac]

Presentation: The Methylation Diet & Lifestyle For Healthy Methylation and Optimal Gene Expression | Kara Fitzgerald and Romilly Hodges

Uploaded to prevent broken links..

 

[Pet Peeve]

Well considering methylfolate (or any kind of folate, including excess folate in your diet) is literally the worst possible thing you could ingest if you're truly a histadelic, I could suggest a few things:

1 - Start doing a lot more research. Because a genuine histadelic taking some methylfolate could have been an extremely dire mistake.

2 - Consult a professional who deals with orthomolecular psychiatry, perhaps even Dr. Mensah in Chicago who's link is at the bottom of the image you posted--who I have personally met and is probably good enough at his job, but absurdly expensive and quite egotistical--so you don't make a simple yet potentially catastrophic mistake like the above.

3 - Barring that, such as in the case where you are unable to to consult with an orthomolecular psychiatrist for whatever reason. You would need to actually diagnose whether you are histadelic, not just off a list of fairly common and broad symptoms, but by getting a histamine blood test. If it's high, and the symptoms match to a large degree, then there's a solid chance you are histadelic, and it might be worth your time exploring how to treat it on your own. If you have confirmed you have high blood histamine, match the symptoms, and can't consult with a qualified practitioner (even online) due to finances, then I would reiterate my first piece of advice: do more research. For starters, I would read Nutrition and Mental Illness by Carl C. Pfeiffer, so you can see what one of the original and proven protocols for Histadelia looked like in detail.

To my recollection, the traditional approach to lowering high blood histamine was based around:

- L-Methionine
- B6
- Calcium
- Zinc

And then in recent years the ortho-psych folks starting using SAM-E to to speed up the process, at least in the first phase of treatment.

Anything else you're coming up with via research online, without first talking to an orthomolecular psychiatrist, is taking a pretty big gamble. Methylation is not something you want to mess around with. To be honest taking any of those things, even if you suspect you have histadelia and have high blood histamine is a pretty big gamble. Messing with zinc and B6 is dangerous for a variety of reasons. Supplemental calcium, especially in the wrong form, is dangerous. L-Methionine is probably unhealthy, from a Ray Peat perspective at least.

So in a nutshell: don't self-treat if you can help it. Find qualified help. And if you have to self-treat, be extremely cautious.

I agree.

 

[Pet Peeve]

A few years ago, my doctor evaluated me and told me that I was a low methylator. I thought I felt fine, although I had a history of having maybe 90% of the symptoms on your list. I emailed Ray Peat for advice. He told me that he does not believe in doing things to increase methylation.

I remember in one of his interviews, Ray Peat said that "low methylators" don't get cancer. I don't remember which interview it was, sorry. Here is a list of Ray's articles that mention methylation: Programmable Search Engine I don't think Ray believes "chemically modifying" DNA (methylation) is necessarily a good thing because that can mean turning off your own genes; turning off your anticancer gene might not be a good idea. Demethylation is also a thing that should be researched and considered.

When I mentioned "demethylation' to the doctor I got a deer in the headlights reaction and no verbal response. I was left with the feeling that the doctor was trying to sell me some supplements to fatten her pocketbook. I chose to ignore my doctor's advice.

I changed doctors and got my thyroid medication optimized, thereby increasing the dosage 100%. Now I take 180 mg of Acella brand natural desiccated thyroid daily. I no longer have any symptoms of allergies, whereas before I was highly allergic to most foods and air borne allergens and had severe chemical sensitivities. Normal thyroid function stabilizes blood sugar. Low blood sugar is a common symptom of hypothyroidism. Low blood sugar causes severe reactions to allergens. It is helpful to understand Ray Peat's ideas about sugar. Here's a list of his articles on sugar: Programmable Search Engine.

The ideas of "stabilized blood sugar" and "normal thyroid function" aren't nearly as mysteriously exciting as "increasing methylation". The idea that normal blood sugar might solve allergies doesn't fit in well with a Paleo diet and being a fat burner which seem to be extremely popular with doctors now. Most doctors have never heard of the Randle cycle. See here: Programmable Search Engine

The symptoms that you listed above that I had went away when I got my thyroid medication optimized. No more circular thinking, no more obsessive compulsive disorder, no more anxiety, etc. It was the hypothyroidism that was the problem.

"PE"? Pulmonary Embolism? See this search: Programmable Search Engine

It's pretty recognized that people with allergies don't get cancer, their immune systems are overactive killing defective cells more efficiently.

 

[mostlylurking]

People with allergies have overactive immune reactions. This is not a healthy state of being. I'm not sure who these people are that you speak of that think that people with allergies don't get cancer. That concept simply sounds wacky to me.

I found a Peat article that might be helpful to this discussion: When energy fails: Edema, heart failure, hypertension, sarcopenia, etc.

Here's a quote from it:
"When conditions are ideal, as during healthy development in the uterus, tissue damage is corrected by the multiplication of cells to replace any that were lost. But when conditions are less perfect, injuries are imperfectly repaired, usually with highly collagenous scar tissue bridging the area that was destroyed. During this imperfect repair, there is inflammation, which apparently exists to the extent that the substances needed for regeneration are lacking. For example, when oxygen is lacking, lactic acid is likely to be produced, along with increases of pro-inflammatory regulators such as histamine and serotonin, leading to the loss of many important proteins and functions, and the over-production of collagen instead."

The idea is to optimize the substances needed for regeneration so that the body has what it needs to do repairs. Keep in mind that if the body makes collagen instead of normal tissue the next thing in the order of degeneration is cancer. Ray Peat believes that cancer is a metabolic disease. Makes sense to me. Please read this article: Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer Histamine is a pro-inflammatory regulator, therefore it would be a pro-cancer thing not a protector from cancer.

High histamine and strong allergies are not good things. They are danger signals that something is wrong.

 

[mostlylurking]

Another great response! Will you please share what your diet looks like too?

My diet is pretty Peaty. I eat lots of dairy (mostly 1% milk with fructose, vanilla, and 1/8 cup hydrolyzed gelatin), orange juice (throughout the day), a cup of coffee with sugar (2Tablespoons) and cream, oranges, lots of watermelon. Also smoked oysters with Italian cream cheese, capers and shallots. Also shrimp scampi and also liver & onions with balsamic vinegar. Also cottage cheese & canned peaches or pears with extra fructose & salt added. I use coconut oil, butter, table sugar, fructose, a little rice vinegar. I cheat with a well cooked baked potato or some white rice occasionally. No nuts, no seeds, no grains, no PUFA. And carrot salad everyday. I very rarely eat out; the safest thing for me to get is a glass of milk and a glass of orange juice. I've been eating this way for over 5 years.

 

[Recoen]

People with allergies have overactive immune reactions. This is not a healthy state of being. I'm not sure who these people are that you speak of that think that people with allergies don't get cancer. That concept simply sounds wacky to me.

I found a Peat article that might be helpful to this discussion: When energy fails: Edema, heart failure, hypertension, sarcopenia, etc.

Here's a quote from it:
"When conditions are ideal, as during healthy development in the uterus, tissue damage is corrected by the multiplication of cells to replace any that were lost. But when conditions are less perfect, injuries are imperfectly repaired, usually with highly collagenous scar tissue bridging the area that was destroyed. During this imperfect repair, there is inflammation, which apparently exists to the extent that the substances needed for regeneration are lacking. For example, when oxygen is lacking, lactic acid is likely to be produced, along with increases of pro-inflammatory regulators such as histamine and serotonin, leading to the loss of many important proteins and functions, and the over-production of collagen instead."

The idea is to optimize the substances needed for regeneration so that the body has what it needs to do repairs. Keep in mind that if the body makes collagen instead of normal tissue the next thing in the order of degeneration is cancer. Ray Peat believes that cancer is a metabolic disease. Makes sense to me. Please read this article: Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer Histamine is a pro-inflammatory regulator, therefore it would be a pro-cancer thing not a protector from cancer.

High histamine and strong allergies are not good things. They are danger signals that something is wrong.

All those people who are developing MCAS, “hEDS”, and many times POTs :/

 

[redsun]

People with allergies have overactive immune reactions. This is not a healthy state of being. I'm not sure who these people are that you speak of that think that people with allergies don't get cancer. That concept simply sounds wacky to me.

I found a Peat article that might be helpful to this discussion: When energy fails: Edema, heart failure, hypertension, sarcopenia, etc.

Here's a quote from it:
"When conditions are ideal, as during healthy development in the uterus, tissue damage is corrected by the multiplication of cells to replace any that were lost. But when conditions are less perfect, injuries are imperfectly repaired, usually with highly collagenous scar tissue bridging the area that was destroyed. During this imperfect repair, there is inflammation, which apparently exists to the extent that the substances needed for regeneration are lacking. For example, when oxygen is lacking, lactic acid is likely to be produced, along with increases of pro-inflammatory regulators such as histamine and serotonin, leading to the loss of many important proteins and functions, and the over-production of collagen instead."

The idea is to optimize the substances needed for regeneration so that the body has what it needs to do repairs. Keep in mind that if the body makes collagen instead of normal tissue the next thing in the order of degeneration is cancer. Ray Peat believes that cancer is a metabolic disease. Makes sense to me. Please read this article: Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer Histamine is a pro-inflammatory regulator, therefore it would be a pro-cancer thing not a protector from cancer.

High histamine and strong allergies are not good things. They are danger signals that something is wrong.

Natural high histamine types are undermethylated, also called histadelics. You quote Peat saying undermethylated people don't get cancer, yet consider histamine pro-cancer. Its not that simplistic. Undermethylator symptoms are due to the effects of high histamine including high brain histamine. By Peat's own claim high histamine types don't get cancer, undermethylated and high histamine is one in the same.

Excess histamine can have its own set of problems that can be very debilitating, but its not simply cancer-promoting.

Histamine does more than act as a pro-inflammatory mediator. It increases permeability of capillaries to white blood cells and proteins to help fight pathogens. Without correct inflammatory and vasodilatory responses, you can't fight pathogens optimally.

It has many pro-cognitive and pro-metabolic benefits, especially in regards to treating obesity and insulin resistance. Its a neurotransmitter involved in promoting motivation, energy, cognition, sexual function, digestive function, and insulin sensitivity.

You cannot say inflammation = bad/pro-cancer. That's a very wrong and simplistic way to think. Uncontrolled excess inflammation is bad, no inflammation at all is bad if not worse.

Barely any allergies at all means your immune system doesn't even have what it needs to work right. You can't react to anything as if your immune system is taking an eternal nap. Its about the right balance and being sensible.

Food allergies/chemical sensitivies is too low histamine, not high... Thyroid seems to be pro-histamine in some aspects:

Thyroid Hormone, Thyroid Hormone Metabolites And Mast Cells: A Less Explored Issue

 

[mostlylurking]

I think it would be helpful for you to read this article by Ray Peat: Autonomic systems

Histamine is a complex issue with a history of conflicting theories and ideas.

I did a search for "histamine" in this article; it is mentioned 37 times.

Here's one quote: "Nitric oxide and histamine are both very important factors in degenerative inflammatory diseases, but their association with the parasympathetic nervous system has given them an aura of benevolence."

 

[amd]

Food allergies/chemical sensitivies is too low histamine, not high.

Anti-histamines (plus deep breathing) can alleviate migranes caused by hyper-sensitivity to chemicals (mast cell activation).