Bernie Sanders Defends Democratic Socialism

[yerrag]

Yes. Democracy is the tower of babel, a curse on mankind.

 

[burtlancast]

Yes. Democracy is the tower of babel, a curse on mankind.

Representative democracy is a curse.

Direct democracy is the way things should be.

 

[yerrag]

Representative democracy is a curse.

Direct democracy is the way things should be.

How does is work? Does it require people to be de-brainwashed? Is there any country close to that? Or does a new country or planet need to be founded?

 

[burtlancast]

We just need to listen to the right persons.

And stop lying to ourselves.

Castoriadis is a good beginning, although he himself seems stuck into what he denounces, the Marx, Lenine, Trotsky doctrines.

 

[thomas00]

Surely Yang has taken some of Sander's shine off...


who would pas up $1K/m

 

[yerrag]

We just need to listen to the right persons.

And stop lying to ourselves.

Castoriadis is a good beginning, although he himself seems stuck into what he denounces, the Marx, Lenine, Trotsky doctrines.

That's a very impractical proposition. How do we know who are the right persons? And how do we know we're lying to ourselves.

The easiest thing is to turn off the programming. And head to where the bears and lions and wolves are. And work as hard as they do.

Surely Yang has taken some of Sander's shine off...


who would pas up $1K/m

Bernie can up the ante $2k/m. He's got MMT as his community chest.

 

[burtlancast]

How do we know who are the right persons?

They're those who make sense.

 

[thomas00]

Direct democracy is the way things should be.

There's some pretty devastating arguments against that too. Democracy in any form just seems to suck. The only reason it exists is because of an unimaginative public.

 

[thomas00]

I used to lap up Bernie's rhetoric or maybe just the excitement. But I woke up. Dems take away freedoms... Right to bear arms right to deny medical procedures (vaccines) as our religious freedom and Nuremburg code. Also they tax ya up the wazoo and just give it away to someone else.

sounds like you got hypnotized by some other bs

 

[yerrag]

They're those who make sense.

Does Yang make sense?

Which Dem candidate talks sense?

Does Schultz make sense?

Trump seems to make the most sense to me. Am I delusional?

 

[Beefcake]

Well, first off, the Federal Reserve isn't even a government institution. Anyway, your entire point was that there was a lot of corruption in the US, and to that I agree. Still, I have yet to see how any sort of socialism or communism would work without a centralized authority. I simply pointed out some institutions, mostly in the Federal Government, that are provably corrupt. The USDA, for example, has been poisoning hundreds of millions of Americans with their horrid iron fortification policy since the 40s, for example. The FDA is there to run cover for the pharmaceutical companies, not protect the public. This forum constantly talks about how third parties making decisions for your health (be they government, corporations, or non-profit organizations) causes so many more problems Why, as an alternative, would I want those same corrupt institutions to have MORE power? It doesn't make any sense.

The only time you will ever see me advocating for any type of communism or socialism is if I am one of the capitalists at the top, reaping all the windfalls of upwards movement of assets and money.

I can still understand why they fortify food with vitamins and minerals. The american department of agriculture knows that everything is refined and soil is depleted. Its an bad attempt to save money and trying to make a flawed system to work. Im not promoting fortification of foods but if the USA didnt I doubt there would be any improvement in health parameters any how. And not everyone has hemochromatosis

 

[Beefcake]

@tankasnowgod

Patently countries that have more government regulation and a less free market have a much richer and freer middle class.

I’m from a country like this. Sweden. Middle class is much bigger here feels like 70-80% is middle class. Then you have upper class and very small portion of poverty.But it’s very unmotivational. Everyone has the same pay. Very little poverty unless it’s an alcoholic/drug addict problem. Where as in the US the poverty tends to lead to alcoholism and drug abuse. Taxes here are so high can be anywhere from 30-65% depending on how much you earn. The harder you work the more you pay the goverment and the goverment never use your money wisely. Thats not how goverments work. Its very frustrating. It sounds good in theory but its not. People tend to get in a state of well its no point in trying to excell anymore or develop. And then you just live life like a hamster in a wheel. Then you have this whole new wave of people who goes on wellfare and don’t lift a finger and get our tax money sometimes making more money than the people who work hard everyday. Only good is that if your life gets ****88 up you most likely never would end up homeless on the streets in a country like this.

 

[thomas00]

Does Yang make sense?

he makes sense if you like $1k


who doesn't like $1k

 

[yerrag]

he makes sense if you like $1k


who doesn't like $1k

Why stop at $1k?

If $1k makes sense, wouldn't $10k make more sense? Whats not to like?

 

[thomas00]

they'll just raise the price of all the things that cost $1k

 

[sunraiser]

That the state will provide has replaced the industry of providing for oneself - this is what at least half of the country thinks. This half of the population is the half that's used to receiving the largesse of the state while not producing anything of value. This half consists of grossly overpaid college administrators, career bureaucrats that just perpetuate the failed state, media barons that conflate issues, lobbyists that feed off and worsen the state of affairs, financial contortionists in the fed and in the banking system that constantly expand the pyramid scheme with fiat money and unfunded pensions and junk bonds, pharmaceutical "legal-seeming drug cartels" that hide under the false pretense of legitimacy while pushing lethal drugs on the population, and their doting idealists that push the idea of enlarging the role of government, all the while pushing the blame on greedy corporations while absolving the corrupt government which is the ultimate enabler for the greedy corporations. The large government and the greedy corporations are nothing else but one. So, as you push democratic socialism, you are pushing for greedy corporations to morph into a larger government with a politburo that only tell you they are working towards the ideal state while they themselves make it less and less ideal by their machinations.

The idea of taxation is for the state to provide infrastructure to facilitate human opportunity - it's really important not to confuse social democracy with communism. For example, tax money can go towards very cheap and efficient quality public transport like trains (it does in many countries - and trains are fundementally not functional as a competitive market) to let people travel and commute further afield. The money could be used to provide lifelong education opportunities to retrain for people in a dynamic economy as opposed to being limited to those born into wealth.

It's not about "the state providing", which it doesn't remotely in the USA and the UK, anyway, it's about making sure the opportunity is there to help people provide for themselves.

I have to strongly disagree with your comment about corporations as it's something that doesn't come down to opinion - it's demonstrably inaccurate in countries like the USA and the UK. Yes, corporate interests and government have merged in these countries, but that because the parties that represent corporate interests are thrusted into power. It's not that government and big corporate are always the same, it's that corporate interests and the media do everything they can to fund those that are amenable towards letting corporations dictate policy and law. Bernie Sanders won't be getting a cent of corporate money, I can guarantee you. The same for Jeremy Corbyn in the UK - he's funded by hundreds of thousands of normal working people that push for needs for humans instead of increasing corporate profit.

The Republicans are the party in the USA that are pushing anti union legislation, but half of the democrats aren't much better - both have huge corporate backing in parts of the party. It's a big problem with the two party system. I don't understand why you align pharmaceutical companies with socialism - they're one of the biggest industries that would benefit from UNREGULATED capitalism as regulation absolutely gets in the way of their profit making - it has absolutely nothing to do with social democracy.

Do you not notice the pattern of where certain types of politician emerge from? They mostly come from rich families that went to private schools and didn't have to face any of the challenges normal humans face - this makes politics and life a game to them and they don't recognise challenges most humans face and therefore don't develop empathy for them.

Bernie is advocating giving more power back to the masses of people (via unions, for example) as opposed to advocating for corporate interests to arbitrarily increase GDP and "growth" at the cost of human wellbeing. The corporate interest wants slavery, where as people want the chance to live a happy life and find health on their own terms via fair pay and working hours/conditions.

It's unfair and inaccurate to associate all politicians with corporate interests just because corporate interests and media puppets have dominated power for such a long time.

The horrors of the past century are still fresh. Don't need to rinse and repeat that cycle.

Could you explain this comment? I'm assuming you mean Hitler but it's important to highlight that he wasn't a socialist, despite the name of his political party. He was absolutely a corporatist and a fascist - the exact same rhetoric and economic policy Trump uses. The same divide and rule notions, the same corporate interest power base.

If we're to learn the lessons of the past we absolutely can't allow people like Trump or Viktor Orban to get into power in the first place. This is actually covered in the video at the start of the thread.

 

[sunraiser]

Greeks had no state power: every citizen was part of the state and could either participate in it or be governed by it. Judges were designated by chance draw among them, and there were no professional politicians.

This is really key in having a properly functioning democracy, I think. Although I'd imagine it's something Bernie would absolutely be for - yes, it might be seen as a hypocrisy, but sometimes when you see something that's so fundementally broken and injust you have to act to try and change it.

Publics servants of high "authority" should absolutely be a wide selection of people that haven't strived for such a position (especially police). There's a saying I was told about in Islam along the lines of "those that seek positions of power are not fit to hold them", and I think other religions convey the same point.

I used to lap up Bernie's rhetoric or maybe just the excitement. But I woke up. Dems take away freedoms... Right to bear arms right to deny medical procedures (vaccines) as our religious freedom and Nuremburg code. Also they tax ya up the wazoo and just give it away to someone else.

It's far more likely that someone like Bernie would be against gun legalisation, that's true, but the republicans are going to be the ones that force vaccination (or the liberals like Hilary Clinton - remember Bernie Sanders is NOT a liberal) because they're the ones that'll be funded by the pharmeceutical companies. If there's money in it, the legislation will be passed under a Republican government (and probably a Liberal government).

 

[sunraiser]

I’m from a country like this. Sweden. Middle class is much bigger here feels like 70-80% is middle class. Then you have upper class and very small portion of poverty.But it’s very unmotivational. Everyone has the same pay. Very little poverty unless it’s an alcoholic/drug addict problem. Where as in the US the poverty tends to lead to alcoholism and drug abuse. Taxes here are so high can be anywhere from 30-65% depending on how much you earn. The harder you work the more you pay the goverment and the goverment never use your money wisely. Thats not how goverments work. Its very frustrating. It sounds good in theory but its not. People tend to get in a state of well its no point in trying to excell anymore or develop. And then you just live life like a hamster in a wheel. Then you have this whole new wave of people who goes on wellfare and don’t lift a finger and get our tax money sometimes making more money than the people who work hard everyday. Only good is that if your life gets ****88 up you most likely never would end up homeless on the streets in a country like this.

All due respect this sounds like a problem that stems from within yourself as opposed to a problem with society, as such. To enable greater inequality and higher poverty so that you can strive to appear materialistically above your peers isn't likely to make you happy - it might make you motivated but it's a never ending pursuit.

These kinds of problems come from the insulation of being middle class, which I think can definitely be dehumanising. I'm not saying they're not serious and that they don't have complex individual answers to search for, but it comes down to finding something wholesome to strive for and you have EVERY opportunity to do that in your country where so many billions of people DO NOT.

 

[Beefcake]

All due respect this sounds like a problem that stems from within yourself as opposed to a problem with society, as such. To enable greater inequality and higher poverty so that you can strive to appear materialistically above your peers isn't likely to make you happy - it might make you motivated but it's a never ending pursuit.

These kinds of problems come from the insulation of being middle class, which I think can definitely be dehumanising. I'm not saying they're not serious and that they don't have complex individual answers to search for, but it comes down to finding something wholesome to strive for and you have EVERY opportunity to do that in your country where so many billions of people DO NOT.

That varies truly from ones perspective. Any how. It’s a ying yang situation. You cant have evil without good and you cant have poverty without the rich. Besides its not a materialistic need. You want to buy your freedom. Money gives you freedom. Freedom not to worry. Its a mental freedom. I have many wholesome things to strive for but the be able to do that optimally I need financial security. If I was Bill Gates, Rockefeller or any other super rich dudes I would use my money for things like cleaning up this world. If I had power to change politics I would ban plastics completely over one night. This is not wholesome things to strive for? To do that I need money. Even if I had money like Bill Gates I wouldnt even want a fancy house with materialistic stuff. Those things dont interest me at all. I could easily give away most of the money as long as I had money to take care of myself. Reason why I don’t like the swedish system is that it wants to hold you down and be part of the machinery. You have to go work 9-5, 365 till the age of 65 and the rest of the time you go home and watch tv till the day you die. Is that a dream? No... you want to do creative things in life like learn to dance, paint, express yourself, have fun. Oh but it’s cool I can do that in sweden. I just have to quit my job go on well fare so I’m actually poor but just let the rest of the people in my country work hard everyday and pay me to do what ever I want. Thats the mentallity of some people here. Whats the dignity of that? They are just parasites. Should I feel bad for them? No.. my grandparents worked on farms and paid taxes they buildt this country. And sure we can allow others and help them but they have to fuc king try themselves aswell. I did not work and pay taxes my whole life so that when I get my pension at old age its miniscule and it all goes to people that dont need it. The could get their own jobs? We can all share the costs of infrastructre, health care, school and nursing the old but if you’re 20 something you can get a job. That is not how it works in my country. Never ending pursuit you say. Give me 5 milion dollars and my pursuit is easily over. It’s enough to let me live and enjoy life. I swear to god right now in sweden we go to work and get paid so we can pay the poor to move up in apartments they just use the system and stay like that for years. They never get jobs. If you would get free money every month you use the system just like them. I wouldnt because its not fair and theres no dignity in it.

 

[managing]

That varies truly from ones perspective. Any how. It’s a ying yang situation. You cant have evil without good and you cant have poverty without the rich. Besides its not a materialistic need. You want to buy your freedom. Money gives you freedom. Freedom not to worry. Its a mental freedom. I have many wholesome things to strive for but the be able to do that optimally I need financial security. If I was Bill Gates, Rockefeller or any other super rich dudes I would use my money for things like cleaning up this world. If I had power to change politics I would ban plastics completely over one night. This is not wholesome things to strive for? To do that I need money. Even if I had money like Bill Gates I wouldnt even want a fancy house with materialistic stuff. Those things dont interest me at all. I could easily give away most of the money as long as I had money to take care of myself. Reason why I don’t like the swedish system is that it wants to hold you down and be part of the machinery. You have to go work 9-5, 365 till the age of 65 and the rest of the time you go home and watch tv till the day you die. Is that a dream? No... you want to do creative things in life like learn to dance, paint, express yourself, have fun. Oh but it’s cool I can do that in sweden. I just have to quit my job go on well fare so I’m actually poor but just let the rest of the people in my country work hard everyday and pay me to do what ever I want. Thats the mentallity of some people here. Whats the dignity of that? They are just parasites. Should I feel bad for them? No.. my grandparents worked on farms and paid taxes they buildt this country. And sure we can allow others and help them but they have to fuc king try themselves aswell. I did not work and pay taxes my whole life so that when I get my pension at old age its miniscule and it all goes to people that dont need it. The could get their own jobs? We can all share the costs of infrastructre, health care, school and nursing the old but if you’re 20 something you can get a job. That is not how it works in my country.

Wait. Take a moment and reread this sentence:

"you cant have poverty without the rich."

Are you really arguing that we must have poverty so that others can be rich? I mean, if you didn't mean that, its cool. I don't want to put words in your mouth, which is why I am checking it out instead of taking it at face value.