• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

Benefits Of Estrogen

quinnGoes

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
17
Age
30
Location
Central Coast California
One thing that has always bothered me about Peat is he always talks hormones and substances in a way that suggests either its good and more is always better, or its bad and you always want to try and reduce it. He doesn't speak much at all about optimal ranges or having too much of a normally good thing, or too little of something that can be harmful.

Estrogen is one of those things. Has peat ever mentioned a range of serum estradiol levels he finds optimal? say 25-35 pg/mL for a male?

With the use of aromatase inhibiting drugs like exemestane, you can pretty easily push estrogen lower than that. This is said to cause many of the same symptoms of high estrogen, like low libido and joint pain.

When pharmacologists speak of hormone influencing drugs, they sometimes mention the "beneficial" estrogenic effect of something. I know this is largely mistaken, but where are these beliefs coming from. For example, with an anti-oestregen like toremifene, many speak of its "beneficial estrogenic effect" on blood lipids (lowering LDL/triglycerides and raising HDL) and bone density. I know conventional knowledge of blood lipids and calcium metabolism is bogus so can someone help explain whats really going on?
 

cliff

Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2012
Messages
425
Age
33
Location
Los Angeles
Ray definitely thinks you need a certain amount of estrogen and he doesn't think using aromatase inhibitors are good from what I've read. He doesn't speak of an optimal range because it probably depends on the context and he thinks blood test aren't very good for measuring how much estrogen is actually there.
 

peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
I'm sorry but every time I read a question like this I wonder if the person asking has read Ray Peat's work. It's all explained so complexly, starting on the cell and pre-cell level.
 

gretchen

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
816
peatarian said:
I'm sorry but every time I read a question like this I wonder if the person asking has read Ray Peat's work. It's all explained so complexly, starting on the cell and pre-cell level.

Frankly, it's hard to understand. The idea that we have tons of estrogen in our tissues but not our blood and therefore don't need estrogen has been greatly confused by doctors who prescribe estrogen to bring blood levels up to "normal". It really is hard to understand, especially if you have perimenopausal symptoms and wonder if using estrogen would help. It didn't help me; my symptoms are better without it, but I wonder. :?

This is the doctor I followed in the 2000s, a pro-estrogen MD named Elizabeth Vliet:
http://www.herplace.com/
 

Jenn

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
1,035
Estrogen deficiency is extremely rare, but there are a few women who may benefit from black cohosh (I think that's the herb....it doesn't apply to me, so I admit, I didn't pay as much attention to that part in class))

MOST women, and men (vasectomy), would benefit from Progest E and/or pregnenelone. (If you have a weak liver, like I did, Progest E just adds one more stress and is wasted.)
 

quinnGoes

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
17
Age
30
Location
Central Coast California
peatatarian, I would appreciate you pointing me in the direction of ray peat reading I should do to better understand these questions. I haven't read any of his books just many of the articles on his website, some of his newsletters, and lots of interpretation of his work by others.

why would peat say a drug like exemestane, a steroidal suicidal aromatase inhibitor, would be bad? It simply reduces the amount of aromatase enzymes without any estrogen rebounding effects or the like, and without completely eliminating all aromatization to estrogen. It must be some side effect of the drug he does not like perhaps?

I also wonder what he would think of the drug Toremifene
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
Trying to directly manipulate a hormone to create an effect is like shocking a heart attack patient...it might temporarily shock you into a state where you realize how you would feel and be functioning if you were naturally producing that hormone in balance, but supplements always fade, because its not the fact that your body cant or doestn know how to be balanced, its purposely creating the hormone balance it has, and if you're under chronic stress, harboring a generally retreating, astringent attitude your body is likely to be in an estrogen dominate state. Its the curl into a ball and protect yourself state, like serotonin is as a neurotransmitter. I suspect your body creates this hormone balance when the person perceives an inevitable 'punch' it will have to take, or be taking, and that there is nothing they can do about it. (If you thought you could do something about it, your body would create more adrenaline, dopamine and less serotonin, but the more hopeless your attitude is, the more you're likely to create a 'just hole up and weather the storm' attitude, hence more estrogen and serotonin, slower metabolism, higher propensity to store energy.
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
1,090
pboy said:
Trying to directly manipulate a hormone to create an effect is like shocking a heart attack patient...it might temporarily shock you into a state where you realize how you would feel and be functioning if you were naturally producing that hormone in balance, but supplements always fade

The same thing goes for thyroid hormone supplements which pretty much most people here are on.
And very few people try to figure out what messed up their thyroid in the first place or how to get it back.

And I've never heard of anyone succesfully discontinue thyroid supplements and make their thyroid function optimally on its own.

There is something out there in the environment that is giving everyone a hard hit and we are all blindly ignorant to the fact that its the stress of life and until we change society it wont change. Sound daft, absurd? Ask people who have fought lifetime of hypothyroidism and never got anywhere without medicine. Sad, but...

Once the boat sinks, you can plug the holes all you like but you're still going down.

I'm not trying to give someone a bad idea of things, by all means fight with everything you have - that's what I'm doing anyways. It's just that, no matter what I tried and did so far, diet & supplements, nothing got better. Just worse. Maybe I'm just in bad luck , if you have success that's great. But no such luck for me..yet. Maybe I still didn't find the perfect supplement, heh.

Sorry for the OT rant. ;)
 
J

j.

Guest
MyUsernameHere said:
And very few people try to figure out what messed up their thyroid in the first place or how to get it back.

People are cutting out PUFA, which might be the main cause for many.
 

Stunning4keke

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
93
Location
Ventura, Ca
gretchen said:
peatarian said:
I'm sorry but every time I read a question like this I wonder if the person asking has read Ray Peat's work. It's all explained so complexly, starting on the cell and pre-cell level.

Frankly, it's hard to understand. The idea that we have tons of estrogen in our tissues but not our blood and therefore don't need estrogen has been greatly confused by doctors who prescribe estrogen to bring blood levels up to "normal". It really is hard to understand, especially if you have perimenopausal symptoms and wonder if using estrogen would help. It didn't help me; my symptoms are better without it, but I wonder. :?

This is the doctor I followed in the 2000s, a pro-estrogen MD named Elizabeth Vliet:
http://www.herplace.com/


i am also interested in this kind of question and i did ask Peat about. i will copy what he wrote to me. because i just stopped taking the estrogen patch i was on for 4 years. and now i am starting to have some hot flashes and no period. i was on a certain amount that gave me a period and i don't understand how estrogen did that? i was also on a prometrium (progesterone) i am also new of a very bad cold turkey from a benzodiazepine drug and have a brain injury right now so those all could be variables to why i am not having a regular period. and one of my questions is, why am i having some hot flashes after being of the estrogen patch or is that possibly a detox reaction i am having?

but here are a few things that Peat said about my back and forth with him about the estrogen. i had asked him if it was indeed the right thing to do to stop using the estrogen supplement i was on.


"There are lots of articles on my website about estrogen. Carla Rothenberg and Barbara Seaman have written some very good things about the fraud involved in the origin of "HRT," or "estrogen replacement." The article on tissue bound estrogen on my site explains that, when progesterone is deficient, estrogen may be produced in many tissues other than the ovaries, without being released into the blood stream, making its measurement in the serum meaningless. Signs that are commonly said to be from estrogen deficiency are often from estrogen excess"



"Estrogen is a brain stimulant, overlapping some of the functions of cocaine, so after continuous use there can be a withdrawal period. Coffee (along with a good diet, and thyroid if needed) can help during the adaptation period, which usually lasts about a month"



"Regulating sugar is a basic thing for preventing hot flashes, and thyroid is sometimes needed for that. One of estrogen's effects is to intensify the vasoconstriction produced by adrenaline (as in Raynaud's phenomenon), and it can also systemically raise adrenaline, while slowing the metabolism, so less heat is produced"
 

Stunning4keke

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
93
Location
Ventura, Ca
also wondering why i would be experiencing hot flashes after i've been off the estrogen patch? i wonder what it is about the estrogen that takes away the hot flashes. or i could possibly be having some withdrawals from the estrogen patch, i don't know? i wish i knew everything Peat!
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
Stunning4keke said:
also wondering why i would be experiencing hot flashes after i've been off the estrogen patch? i wonder what it is about the estrogen that takes away the hot flashes. or i could possibly be having some withdrawals from the estrogen patch, i don't know? i wish i knew everything Peat!

If i remember correctly, i heard in a radio interview RP explaining how estrogen stops hot flashes by shutting down some kind of sweat glands. That is very unhealthy. Ray Peat has several article on estrogen and progesterone. Lita Lee has written an article citing Ray Peat's newsletters as source to explain hot flashes after stopping estrogen therapy. That might be useful for you.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/menopause.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging ... rone.shtml
http://www.litalee.com/shopexd.asp?id=198
 

kaybb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
448
Has anyone found help for hot flashes? Just more progesterone? I have stopped estrogen but still on progesterone. RP says withdrawal may take a month. The hot flashes are exhausting. They are bad at night. I may just up my progesterone. Anyone have success banishing them? (I don't have uterus or ovaries & been on HRT for about 13 yrs)
 

SQu

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
1,308
You might consider clonidine. I take half to one 25mcg tablet when I flush and it stops it dead. Every now and then I need a bit more. That's mostly what I use it for, occasionally also for racing mind that keeps me awake. You might find it very good at night. Others here take more so I think mine is a low dose. First few days it made me sleepy and gave me dry mouth. Soon went though. It's turning out to be as useful as cypro heptadine for me. It's available without script in some countries. I showed it to a female doctor I just went to and she said it was a great med.
Progesterone seems to lower incidence of flushing and is crucial I find. I would really look into your dosing on that. Whereas once you start flushing, the clonidine gives quick relief.
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
I used to sometimes wake up sweatig in the night. I though it meant I had too many blankets on. I now suspect these may have been related to hot flushes.
I don't think i've woken up wiht a night sweat in more than two years now.
I'm not sure exactly which of teh things I changesd were most important, becasue I changed several things, any or all of which may have helped:
- Much more sugar. Avoid low sugar stress. My hunch is this was the most important.
- More blankets, bedclothes, get the bed warm with electric blanket before getting in.
- Progest-e. The first year or more I was taking at least 50mg/day, but often probably at least twice that. Now I'm taking just two 10mg doses a day.
- Supplementing calcium and magnesium
Could be other things too.
 

kaybb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
448
SQu said:
post 108539 You might consider clonidine. I take half to one 25mcg tablet when I flush and it stops it dead. Every now and then I need a bit more. That's mostly what I use it for, occasionally also for racing mind that keeps me awake. You might find it very good at night. Others here take more so I think mine is a low dose. First few days it made me sleepy and gave me dry mouth. Soon went though. It's turning out to be as useful as cypro heptadine for me. It's available without script in some countries. I showed it to a female doctor I just went to and she said it was a great med.
Progesterone seems to lower incidence of flushing and is crucial I find. I would really look into your dosing on that. Whereas once you start flushing, the clonidine gives quick relief.
Thank you for this info!! I just saw this while searching again for help. I will look into clonidine.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kaybb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
448
tara said:
post 108552 I used to sometimes wake up sweatig in the night. I though it meant I had too many blankets on. I now suspect these may have been related to hot flushes.
I don't think i've woken up wiht a night sweat in more than two years now.
I'm not sure exactly which of teh things I changesd were most important, becasue I changed several things, any or all of which may have helped:
- Much more sugar. Avoid low sugar stress. My hunch is this was the most important.
- More blankets, bedclothes, get the bed warm with electric blanket before getting in.
- Progest-e. The first year or more I was taking at least 50mg/day, but often probably at least twice that. Now I'm taking just two 10mg doses a day.
- Supplementing calcium and magnesium
Could be other things too.
Thank you Tara! Really good info.
I am taking 100mg progesterone a day but I am going to try a higher dose when I get my order from Haidut.
I do take mag. Supplement and also take mag shots 2x/month. Calcium....i have milk &cheese daily.
Sugar...I better try to regulate this. I drink OJ throughout day but maybe this is the area I can look at closer.
Thanks again!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

youngandold

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
87
Women have higher estrogen levels yet women outlive men.
so there must be something else were missing...
 

Nighteyes

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
409
Location
Europe
youngandold said:
post 109995 Women have higher estrogen levels yet women outlive men.
so there must be something else were missing...

From Raypeat.com:

Ray Peat Wrote:
In the 1940s, around the time that Hans Selye was reporting that estrogen causes shock, and that progesterone protects against many stress-related problems, the anthropologist Ashley Montague published The Natural Superiority of Women. Later, as I looked at the history of endocrine research, it seemed apparent that progesterone was responsible for many of the biological advantages of females, such as a longer average life-span, while testosterone was responsible for men’s advantage in muscular strength.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

Top