Beans To Get Rid Of Sludgy Bile

[CLASH]

I listened to the podcast, here's what I think:

1) She's selling a story, in doing so she seems a bit hyperbolic in many of her claims. When asked how many people she's helped, her response was a casual 30,000. Meanwhile she doesn't seem to be very prominently known.
2) She doesn't know much about the physiology of fats, at least based on her work that's not $250 that I have access to, and her speaking points on various podcasts
3) She doesn't know much about the microbiome and when she obviously doesn't know much about something she seems to try to obscure her lack of knowledge with jargon and terminology.
4) Looking elsewhere at her dietary recommendations, I dont see anything different from Tim ferris slow carb diet, the generic bodybuilding diet, the generic ideas of a so called healthy diet, some paleo bloggers diet advocates like Dr. GB. Essentially, her dietary recommendations are the generic "eat your greens, eat legumes, eat nuts and seeds, avoid SAFA while eating PUFA instead, dont eat anything with sugar, eat only lean meats"
5) Her main selling point seems to be the incorporation of soluble fiber to bind bile. I don't see any new or novel information besides that.
6) Her trains of thought seem reductionistic at best. She has an extensive list of products on her website, each one supposedly a protocol for each individual condition.
7) She seems to try to obscure topics in complexity, mentioning that female hormonal issues are due to excess hormones but us listeners wouldn't understand her explanation because it's too complex. I personally don't appreciate the blanket statement, followed by the assumption. To me it implies a lack of understanding on her part; due to her inability to explain it well enough that a lay person could understand it.

As for @Tarmander, I think you did a great job asking pointed questions and maintaining a non-biased position.

My take away for this podcast is looking into the effects of soluble fiber in regards to binding bile; and seeing if this is indeed as beneficial as she mentioned and if beans are really the best tool for this.

 

[Jesilyn]

I listened to the podcast, here's what I think:

1) She's selling a story, in doing so she seems a bit hyperbolic in many of her claims. When asked how many people she's helped, her response was a casual 30,000. Meanwhile she doesn't seem to be very prominently known.
2) She doesn't know much about the physiology of fats, at least based on her work that's not $250 that I have access to, and her speaking points on various podcasts
3) She doesn't know much about the microbiome and when she obviously doesn't know much about something she seems to try to obscure her lack of knowledge with jargon and terminology.
4) Looking elsewhere at her dietary recommendations, I dont see anything different from Tim ferris slow carb diet, the generic bodybuilding diet, the generic ideas of a so called healthy diet, some paleo bloggers diet advocates like Dr. GB. Essentially, her dietary recommendations are the generic "eat your greens, eat legumes, eat nuts and seeds, avoid SAFA while eating PUFA instead, dont eat anything with sugar, eat only lean meats"
5) Her main selling point seems to be the incorporation of soluble fiber to bind bile. I don't see any new or novel information besides that.
6) Her trains of thought seem reductionistic at best. She has an extensive list of products on her website, each one supposedly a protocol for each individual condition.
7) She seems to try to obscure topics in complexity, mentioning that female hormonal issues are due to excess hormones but us listeners wouldn't understand her explanation because it's too complex. I personally don't appreciate the blanket statement, followed by the assumption. To me it implies a lack of understanding on her part; due to her inability to explain it well enough that a lay person could understand it.

As for @Tarmander, I think you did a great job asking pointed questions and maintaining a non-biased position.

My take away for this podcast is looking into the effects of soluble fiber in regards to binding bile; and seeing if this is indeed as beneficial as she mentioned and if beans are really the best tool for this.

Thanks for the summary! Matches my perception too in the interview I heard... her whole pitch felt a bit sweeping and hyperbolic. Please share what you learn if you investigate soluble fiber and beans!

 

[CLASH]

Effect of baked beans (Phaseoh vulgaris) on steroid metabolism and non-starch polysaccharide output of hypercholesterolaemic pigs with or without an ileo-rectal anastomosis | British Journal of Nutrition | Cambridge Core

"The intact pigs (NP) fed on baked beans showed considerable differences compared with the other groups, as follows: (a) reduced plasma cholesterol (NS); (b) higher concentration of cholesterol in bile (NS); (c) higher concentration of bile acids, especially secondary bile acids, in bile (P < 0.05); (d) reduced elimination of bile acids in faeces, especially secondary bile acids (P < 0.05); (e) higher excretion of coprostanol and lower elimination of cholesterol in faeces (P < 0.05). From these findings it is proposed that a baked-bean-enriched diet potentiates bacterial fermentation and steroid degradation in the large intestine and enhances conservation of bile acids and cholesterol within the enterohepatic circulation."

 

[CLASH]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAPegQICxAB&usg=AOvVaw2kpyMZ5lNL-M7MFvp3OOY1

"The present study demonstrates that legume intake markedly increases biliary cholesterol satura- tion by 50% in young Chilean men. This effect is caused by a drop of biliary phospholipid molar percentage and by an increase in biliary cholesterol molar percentage. The proportion of vesicular cho- lesterol was increased by 200% in duodenal bile after the legume intake period. Although biliary cholesterol saturation was not correlated signifi- cantly with each of the serum lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels significantly decreased by 16% after the le- gume diet."

"It is now well established that biliary cholesterol supersaturation represents the first and necessary step in the pathogenesis of cholesterol gallstone disease (5). Populations with high prevalences of cholesterol gallstone disease include the Pima Indi- ans and other tribes of the southwestern area of the United States (6,21) and Chileans (3,4). The finding that legume intake, a common food for both Chileansand Pima Indians (7), increases biliary cholesterol saturation indicates that some specific legume con- stituent(s) may interfere with the regulatory mecha- nisms of biliary lipid secretion, favoring biliary cholesterol supersaturation. The physiologic signif- icance of the decrease in the molar percentage of phospholipids and the increase in the molar percent- age of cholesterol is uncertain. Studies of hepatic
secretion of individual biliary lipids will be neces- sary to determine the primary alteration induced by legume intake.

The effect of bean intake, the most frequently consumed legume in our study, on serum cholesterol concentration has been previously noted in hyper- cholesterolemic men (22). It is important to note thatepidemiologic studies have demonstrated an in- creased prevalence of gallstones in men ingesting a diet that lowers serum cholesterol (23). Theoreti- cally, the reciprocal changes induced by legume intake on low-density lipoprotein cholesterol con- centration and biliary cholesterol saturation strongly suggest that some legume constituent may be actingon both low-density lipoprotein metabolism and the regulatory mechanisms of biliary cholesterol secre- tion."

"Several dietary maneuvers increase biliary choles- terol saturation, including high-caloric diets (1,2), high-cholesterol diets (24), and a high-polyunsatu- rated fat diet fed to some hypertriglyceridemic sub- jects (25). We designed the control and legume diets to supply identical quantities of energy, carbohy- drates, protein, total fat, fiber, saturated and polyun- saturated fatty acids, and cholesterol. The hypocho- lesterolemic effect of beans has been attributed to their specific water-soluble fiber content in both humans and rats (26). One of the nondigestible water-soluble components of legumes are saponins, which have several effects on cholesterol metabo- lism besides their capacity to decrease serum cholesterol concentration in experimental animals (27). Saponin content of legumes is highly variable among cultivars; its concentration varies from 0.4 to 2 g% (wt/wt) in beans and 0.4 to 6.6 g% (wt/wt) in lentils (28). Legumes represent the most important source of dietary saponins. Other food plants with high saponin content are spinach, silver beet, peanuts, and asparagus (28). These substances decrease cho- lesterol absorption (29), increase fecal steroid excretion (30), and increase biliary cholesterol secretion and saturation in the rat (31). Saponins are amphi- philic compounds in which sugars are linked to a nonpolar group (the sapogenins), which may be either a steroid or a triterpene. Diosgenin is a steroidal sapogenin that markedly increases biliary cholesterol output and saturation in the rat (31). This plant steroid does not modify biliary phospholipid output."

 

[CLASH]

Anecdotally, at 18 years old, I had to have my gallbladder removed after developing severe digestive issues and gallbladder inflammation (as determined by multiple diagnostic tests and confirmed after surgical removal). My diet at this time was greens, lentils, chicken, eggs, fish, olive oil, avocados, nuts and spices.

Reading these studies makes me think the legumes may have had more to do with my gallbladder issue at that time than I previously thought. I didn't know there was a connection until now.

Also, when I was eating a lot of lentils and nuts I was bloated and gassy all day long. Perhaps TMI but I remember trying to hold in farts in class and being uncomfortable all day long...

 

[powerlifter]

@Tarmander I really liked your latest podcast with Jason Hawrelak, so many take home messages there. I wish you asked how beans would affect the microbiota. I guess it increases firmicutes/bacteroidetes ratio due to high fiber content.

 

[Tarmander]

I listened to the podcast, here's what I think:

1) She's selling a story, in doing so she seems a bit hyperbolic in many of her claims. When asked how many people she's helped, her response was a casual 30,000. Meanwhile she doesn't seem to be very prominently known.
2) She doesn't know much about the physiology of fats, at least based on her work that's not $250 that I have access to, and her speaking points on various podcasts
3) She doesn't know much about the microbiome and when she obviously doesn't know much about something she seems to try to obscure her lack of knowledge with jargon and terminology.
4) Looking elsewhere at her dietary recommendations, I dont see anything different from Tim ferris slow carb diet, the generic bodybuilding diet, the generic ideas of a so called healthy diet, some paleo bloggers diet advocates like Dr. GB. Essentially, her dietary recommendations are the generic "eat your greens, eat legumes, eat nuts and seeds, avoid SAFA while eating PUFA instead, dont eat anything with sugar, eat only lean meats"
5) Her main selling point seems to be the incorporation of soluble fiber to bind bile. I don't see any new or novel information besides that.
6) Her trains of thought seem reductionistic at best. She has an extensive list of products on her website, each one supposedly a protocol for each individual condition.
7) She seems to try to obscure topics in complexity, mentioning that female hormonal issues are due to excess hormones but us listeners wouldn't understand her explanation because it's too complex. I personally don't appreciate the blanket statement, followed by the assumption. To me it implies a lack of understanding on her part; due to her inability to explain it well enough that a lay person could understand it.

As for @Tarmander, I think you did a great job asking pointed questions and maintaining a non-biased position.

My take away for this podcast is looking into the effects of soluble fiber in regards to binding bile; and seeing if this is indeed as beneficial as she mentioned and if beans are really the best tool for this.

Appreciate the compliment as I do try to remain unbiased and not let me own beliefs sneak in there because you never know what is going to be helpful for others.

I think this is a good take on the content. It is good to remember that everyone's theories of health have holes in them somewhere, even Ray's have unanswered questions. So taking the good and expanding on that is the right approach like you are doing.

If I understand what you are saying above, beans remove fat from bile and this raises the concentration of cholesterol and this can be harmful?

 

[Tarmander]

@Tarmander I really liked your latest podcast with Jason Hawrelak, so many take home messages there. I wish you asked how beans would affect the microbiota. I guess it increases firmicutes/bacteroidetes ratio due to high fiber content.

Thanks man. I felt the same. I hope the Ray Peat crowd picks up on the nuance of the firmicutes/bacteroides and how that impacts endotoxin levels. Right now Ray's comments about bacteria lack nuance, and this could be a key to making the Peat diet work.

I believe(my hunch) my firmicutes has gone up quite a bit just from incorporating pomegranate and cranberry pills everyday, so the polyphenol aspect could be just as important as the fiber aspect which Peat is not in favor of

 

[Jesilyn]

So this study shows the opposite of what the bean diet supposes to do? Am I understanding correctly?

 

[Pompadour]

So this study shows the opposite of what the bean diet supposes to do? Am I understanding correctly?

Exactly! And this is upsetting , because last months i eat a lot of lentils ((

 

[Jesilyn]

Exactly! And this is upsetting , because last months i eat a lot of lentils ((

Huh. Have you noticed any effects negative or positive since adding in lentils? How much do you eat?

 

[Tarmander]

So this study shows the opposite of what the bean diet supposes to do? Am I understanding correctly?

I don't think this study shows the opposite. It shows beans removing fats from Bile if I understand it correctly, which would be where the fat soluble toxins would be, but this process concentrates the cholesterol, which may have negative effects

 

[Pompadour]

Huh. Have you noticed any effects negative or positive since adding in lentils? How much do you eat?

I eat them 2-3 times a day. I don't see much negative yet, but positive i dont see either. But i have already sludgy bile and don't want to make things worse.

 

[Pompadour]

I don't think this study shows the opposite. It shows beans removing fats from Bile if I understand it correctly, which would be where the fat soluble toxins would be, but this process concentrates the cholesterol, which may have negative effects

But in this case the stones can't be removed or dissolve. And they claim, that the bean protocol can help dissolve them.

 

[Tarmander]

But in this case the stones can't be removed or dissolve. And they claim, that the bean protocol can help dissolve them.

interesting.

My sense was the bean protocol was more about the toxins being removed then getting the gall bladder moving

 

[docall18]

Lots of coffee and using desiccated thyroid works for me to get bile & liver toxins movin.

 

[somuch4food]

@somuch4food here is the link for pdf article
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAPegQICxAB&usg=AOvVaw2kpyMZ5lNL-M7MFvp3OOY1

One flaw I see with this study in regards to Karen Hurd's recommendation is that they added legumes while keeping the same macro ratios, but Karen does not approve of beans or nuts as adequate proteins. I certainly don't get the same satisfaction from beans that I get from meat. She is big on getting efficient proteins from animals.

In my case, I think this approach is beneficial because it's the first diet variation I'm implementing that reduces carbs. I won't go anywhere near keto (and Hurd doesn't like Keto at all).

I do find beans/soluble fiber reduce anxiety and help with sleep.

 

[Jesilyn]

Unique Hammond is hosting a love Q and A with Karen at 12:00 on Saturday on Instagram if anyone wants to get some direct answers. I think I may be too jumbled on all the contradicting expert opinions to even know what to ask. What would you ask her?

 

[somuch4food]

Unique Hammond is hosting a love Q and A with Karen at 12:00 on Saturday on Instagram if anyone wants to get some direct answers. I think I may be too jumbled on all the contradicting expert opinions to even know what to ask. What would you ask her?

I'd like her to explain why fruits are bad apart from blood sugar issues they can create. She's really against them and the only argument I have heard from her is that they spike insulin.

 

[Recoen]

I'd like her to explain why fruits are bad apart from blood sugar issues they can create. She's really against them and the only argument I have heard from her is that they spike insulin.

Which looking at the glycemic index alone isn’t true. The GI for beans is 10-40 depending on the type and apples are 39.