Be Wary Of Vitamin D Supplementation

LegendeLic

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hi! after reading a lot of vitamin D threads in this community and seeing how vitamin D affects others and myself, I am somehow thinking maybe it's just the D3 that is problematic for me and some others?
I have some trouble with D3 it fatigues me and I get a rash depending on the dose. I've tried this a lot of times, it really is the D3. When you search for this here in the forum and elsewhere online you find the same thing over and over again. Doesn't matter how much A, K/K2, magnesium, calcium I or they take with it.

So I am wondering what's the reason for this? Has anyone tried to swap out the D3 against a D2 supplement? And felt different or better?
I did some digging into that and it seems that might be an option for some...

Differential effects of vitamin D2 and D3 supplements on 25-hydroxyvitamin D level are dose, sex, and time dependent: a randomized controlled trial
Differential effects of vitamin D2 and D3 supplements on 25-hydroxyvitamin D level are dose, sex, and time dependent: a randomized controlled trial
supplementing with D2 lowers D3 and vice versa

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5007893/
Differential Responses to Vitamin D2 and Vitamin D3 Are Associated With Variations in Free 25-Hydroxyvitamin D
Genome-wide association studies have underlined the link between the DBP genotype, circulating levels of DBP, and serum 25D status.

D2 has less affinity to DBP (D binding protein) should result in more free 25-OH-D

https://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/clinjasn/early/2017/08/01/CJN.00530117.full.pdf
Effects of Vitamin D2 Supplementation on Vitamin D3 Metabolism in Health and CKD
Vitamin D2 supplementation decreases conversion of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 to 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 and induces vitamin D3 catabolism as evidenced by changes in D3 metabolites and vitamin D metabolic ratios.

edit: another study... although I am not sure if I am interpreting that wrong or if they are interpreting that wrong.

Effects of High-Dose Vitamin D2 Versus D3 on Total and Free 25-Hydroxyvitamin D and Markers of Calcium Balance
Effects of High-Dose Vitamin D2 Versus D3 on Total and Free 25-Hydroxyvitamin D and Markers of Calcium Balance
Results: Increases in total (+27.6 vs +12.2 ng/mL; P = .001) and free (+3.6 vs +6.2 pg/mL; P = .02) 25D levels were greater with D3 vs D2.

my conclusions: what? D2 is almost double in free 25 levels than D3 and total half of D3... how can they put that in the same result?

their Conclusions:
D3 increased total and free 25D levels to a greater extent than D2. Free 25D may be superior to total 25D as a marker of vitamin D bioactivity.


 
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managing

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hi! after reading a lot of vitamin D threads in this community and seeing how vitamin D affects others and myself, I am somehow thinking maybe it's just the D3 that is problematic for me and some others?
I have some trouble with D3 it fatigues me and I get a rash depending on the dose. I've tried this a lot of times, it really is the D3. When you search for this here in the forum and elsewhere online you find the same thing over and over again. Doesn't matter how much A, K/K2, magnesium, calcium I or they take with it.

So I am wondering what's the reason for this? Has anyone tried to swap out the D3 against a D2 supplement? And felt different or better?
I did some digging into that and it seems that might be an option for some...

Differential effects of vitamin D2 and D3 supplements on 25-hydroxyvitamin D level are dose, sex, and time dependent: a randomized controlled trial
Differential effects of vitamin D2 and D3 supplements on 25-hydroxyvitamin D level are dose, sex, and time dependent: a randomized controlled trial
supplementing with D2 lowers D3 and vice versa

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5007893/
Differential Responses to Vitamin D2 and Vitamin D3 Are Associated With Variations in Free 25-Hydroxyvitamin D
Genome-wide association studies have underlined the link between the DBP genotype, circulating levels of DBP, and serum 25D status.

D2 has less affinity to DBP (D binding protein) should result in more free 25-OH-D

https://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/clinjasn/early/2017/08/01/CJN.00530117.full.pdf
Effects of Vitamin D2 Supplementation on Vitamin D3 Metabolism in Health and CKD
Vitamin D2 supplementation decreases conversion of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 to 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 and induces vitamin D3 catabolism as evidenced by changes in D3 metabolites and vitamin D metabolic ratios.

edit: another study... although I am not sure if I am interpreting that wrong or if they are interpreting that wrong.

Effects of High-Dose Vitamin D2 Versus D3 on Total and Free 25-Hydroxyvitamin D and Markers of Calcium Balance
Effects of High-Dose Vitamin D2 Versus D3 on Total and Free 25-Hydroxyvitamin D and Markers of Calcium Balance
Results: Increases in total (+27.6 vs +12.2 ng/mL; P = .001) and free (+3.6 vs +6.2 pg/mL; P = .02) 25D levels were greater with D3 vs D2.

my conclusions: what? D2 is almost double in free 25 levels than D3 and total half of D3... how can they put that in the same result?

their Conclusions:
D3 increased total and free 25D levels to a greater extent than D2. Free 25D may be superior to total 25D as a marker of vitamin D bioactivity.

For me, Vit D absolutely requires Mg supplementation.
 

dreamcatcher

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Funny that the idea of this thread was originally to reduce Vitamin D supplementation. After reading through it, I am upping mine to 20,000 IU a day. Note, I'm not too worried about vascular calcification, as I also take Magnesium, K2, and eat liver once a week.

But all this reminded me of my best paleo days, and it was during that time I was supplementing a lot of vitamin d.
Ray Peat recently told me that to maintain good skin quality and to protect it from sun damage, a good vitamin D status is extremely protective.
 

Forsythia

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That study, published in 1962, used massive amounts of D2 (not D3).

Of course, when considering whether to take D3 supplementation, we can take into consideration what Peat does (see the #2 post in this thread):

"Ray Peat just told me that he takes 20,000IU daily from fall to spring, by applying it on his skin".

Here is a study on using D3 transdermally, published in 2014. This study was done on 48 women who had low 25(OH)D levels with the average being 12.05 ng/ml. After 3 months of applying a cream daily containing 5,000 iu of D3, the average level was 37.95 ng/ml.

Topical Delivery of Vitamin D3: A Randomized Controlled Pilot Study
 

Forsythia

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Ray Peat recently told me that to maintain good skin quality and to protect it from sun damage, a good vitamin D status is extremely protective.

Rosie, I just quoted you in my last post! Thanks for the details from Peat about D3 that you have posted.
 

Dave Clark

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That study, published in 1962, used massive amounts of D2 (not D3).

Of course, when considering whether to take D3 supplementation, we can take into consideration what Peat does (see the #2 post in this thread):

"Ray Peat just told me that he takes 20,000IU daily from fall to spring, by applying it on his skin".

Here is a study on using D3 transdermally, published in 2014. This study was done on 48 women who had low 25(OH)D levels with the average being 12.05 ng/ml. After 3 months of applying a cream daily containing 5,000 iu of D3, the average level was 37.95 ng/ml.

Topical Delivery of Vitamin D3: A Randomized Controlled Pilot Study
How is the best way to ask this, is topical administration of vitamin D giving the same benefits of sun bathing regarding the sulfation with the cholesterol, etc., or is it the same as taking it orally except bypassing the digestion? In other words, is topical vitamin d the same as getting d from a sunlamp or sun?
 

Forsythia

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How is the best way to ask this, is topical administration of vitamin D giving the same benefits of sun bathing regarding the sulfation with the cholesterol, etc., or is it the same as taking it orally except bypassing the digestion? In other words, is topical vitamin d the same as getting d from a sunlamp or sun?

I know that Peat likes transdermal application for supplements as a way to exclude excipients. And, as you say, it bypasses digestion. But whether there are other benefits, I don't know.

But, as the study I posted on D3 determined, transdermally is an effective way to take D3. Whether it more closely mimics D3 produced from sunshine, I don't know.
 

baccheion

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What serum level results from applying 20,000 IU D3 (or some other amount) to the skin?
 

sweetpeat

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What serum level results from applying 20,000 IU D3 (or some other amount) to the skin?
I think only about 20% is absorbed topically. So a dose of 20,000 would give you the equivalent of about 4,000 orally.

I used that dose through this past winter: mostly 20,000 topically, sometimes 3,000-4,000 orally, thinking I was maintaining the level of 30 ng/mL I had in the fall. I recently checked and my levels have dropped to 22 :(
Maybe I wasn't absorbing it well topically. Maybe it would have been even lower by doing nothing. I don't know. But I probably won't do topical anymore.
 

Amazoniac

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I think only about 20% is absorbed topically. So a dose of 20,000 would give you the equivalent of about 4,000 orally.

I used that dose through this past winter: mostly 20,000 topically, sometimes 3,000-4,000 orally, thinking I was maintaining the level of 30 ng/mL I had in the fall. I recently checked and my levels have dropped to 22 :(
Maybe I wasn't absorbing it well topically. Maybe it would have been even lower by doing nothing. I don't know. But I probably won't do topical anymore.
That's odd, especially because people tend to be more responsive when levels and doses are low.

- Vitamin D Supplement Doses and Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin D in the Range Associated with Cancer Prevention

upload_2019-3-9_19-36-16.png

- Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin D and Calcium: Non-linear response to vitamin D dosing (× 0.4 for values in ng/ml)

Even though it varies, the current upper limit is set at 4000 IU after a lot of consideration. From the first page of the thread you can tell that cases that stay on low levels taking this much are exceptions. This makes you an exceptional human being.

Do you get enough calcium¿

- Is Vitamin D Supplementation Even Neccessary
- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity
 

Amazoniac

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Why, thank you! ...I think

I get about 1500mg calcium a day.
An exceptional human being.
- Aren't you supposed to be turned to the sun? Are you playing hard to get?
- If you have more body fat, it takes longer to change blood levels, but an entire season should've been enough.
- Have you tested for the bloody active vit D, paratyphoid hormone, calcium and phosphate?
 
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sweetpeat

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An exceptional human being.
- Aren't you supposed to be turned to the sun? Are you playing hard to get?
- If you have more body fat, it takes longer to change blood levels, but an entire season should've been enough.
- Have you tested for the bloody active vit D, paratyphoid hormone, calcium and phosphate?
I live at the 43rd parallel north. It's the sun that's playing hard to get. I'm just a mere mortal.
PTH is 33, calcium mid-range, phosphorus low normal.

I've responded well in the past to oral vitamin D so I've switched exclusively to oral and will re-test. Using topical was an experiment which unfortunately didn't work for me.
 

Amazoniac

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I live at the 43rd parallel north. It's the sun that's playing hard to get. I'm just a mere mortal.
PTH is 33, calcium mid-range, phosphorus low normal.

I've responded well in the past to oral vitamin D so I've switched exclusively to oral and will re-test. Using topical was an experiment which unfortunately didn't work for me.
One more reason that makes you special is that dark skin and blond hair is a rare coincidence. Were you borned in the Salmon Islands?
- Naturally blond hair in Solomon Islanders rooted in native gene, study finds

By the way, there are differences in skin that might affect the response to the same vit D applied:
- Transdermal Vitamins (again. )

But it can also vary when ingested:
- Differences in the dietary requirement for vitamin D among Caucasian and East African women at Northern latitude

We already knew that the sun is a racialist, but now we can add vit D as well.

It's indeed worth ingesting it to rule out if the issue is just topically. If it's not, consider these:
- Reasons for low response to vitamin D | Antidote D Wiki

And if you've been monitoring (testing the active form next time can be helpful), it should be alright to increase the dose.

Have you ever tried the ultraviolent lamps?
 

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