Be Wary Of Vitamin D Supplementation

[milk_lover]

@Amazoniac I still don't understand your stance on vitamin D. Any final conclusion or finding you can shed on the subject without the tone of comedy because I am not a native English speaker?

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac I still don't understand your stance on vitamin D. Any final conclusion or finding you can shed on the subject without the tone of comedy because I am not a native English speaker?

It's because you're not a native speaker of prolactinese.

I stand by my position that there are therapeutic uses for venom D supplements, but they should be used as a last resource for maintenance, especially if you're unsure if it's being helpful. I would favor sunlight > UV lamps > venom D3 supplement. As you know, all these can be combined with Raj's heat lamps, but it's beyond venom D and warm light, so you'll be missing out the other components by just relying on these two. Those are not pristine options, they do have side effects as well, such as aging the skin and destroying nutrients, but the overall effect is positive and better regulated.

 

[milk_lover]

It's because you're not a native speaker of prolactinese.

I stand by my position that there are therapeutic uses for venom D supplements, but they should be used as a last resource for maintenance, especially if you're unsure if it's being helpful. I would favor sunlight > UV lamps > venom D3 supplement. As you know, all these can be combined with Raj's heat lamps, but it's beyond venom D and warm light, so you'll be missing out the other components by just relying on these two. Those are not pristine options, they do have side effects as well, such as aging the skin and destroying nutrients, but the overall effect is positive and better regulated.

Thank you for the clear explanation. So you are not 100% joking when you name some vitamins poison and venom. It reflects some deep opinions you have about them.

 

[somuch4food]

It's because you're not a native speaker of prolactinese.

I stand by my position that there are therapeutic uses for venom D supplements, but they should be used as a last resource for maintenance, especially if you're unsure if it's being helpful. I would favor sunlight > UV lamps > venom D3 supplement. As you know, all these can be combined with Raj's heat lamps, but it's beyond venom D and warm light, so you'll be missing out the other components by just relying on these two. Those are not pristine options, they do have side effects as well, such as aging the skin and destroying nutrients, but the overall effect is positive and better regulated.

Do you think a reptile UVB bulb is a cheap way to get some D? The vitamin D council seems to think so : https://vitamindwiki.com/Vitamin+D+bulb+for+use+in+the+home+-+or+perhaps+office

Those bulbs seem to aim to reproduce UVB from shady areas and would seem safe for longer exposure.

 

[managing]

I don't think that it damages canola oil.

How can you increase a gas on skin while preventing it from escaping? May be its fast metabolism. Frying the skin during inflammation until it reddens and screams 'O NOO' doesn't sound good. Could it be taking the hit and sparing internal organs?

All I really meant is that consuming canola oil as your main fat can be expected to suppress metabolism and lead to weight gain.

 

[Amazoniac]

Thank you for the clear explanation. So you are not 100% joking when you name some vitamins poison and venom. It reflects some deep opinions you have about them.

It has gotten to a point where everything is being bashed by someone, so all must be toxic. Living in a toxic world will eventually turn you into a toxin: being alive is unhealthy.

I believe that this is why people seek things like killcium supplements, poison A, venom D, seeyafood, coffeen, millk, pootatoes, leaves, cuckoonut products, yellow-red foods, and onions; it takes courage to put an end to it, it's easier to go after destructive habits instead.

The weak in courage is strong in cunning.

In our case here people are taking a raticide, the intentions could not have been clearer.

If positive effects are odserved from venom D supplements, nothing prevents the person from diversifying the sources of intoxication so that the death is reported to be from multiple causes, I doubt that they'll suspect the underlying one. I think that it's a fair thing to consider because although the body will synthesize more on skin according to demand, keeping up with an increased requirement means more exposure when you could have already derived all the benefit from other components, leading to unnecessary stress just to produce more venom. The greatest share can be from synthesis, yet varying will contribute to not need to go over the board in any.

Do you think a reptile UVB bulb is a cheap way to get some D?

I'm not familiar with them, but @Dan Wich [] has tried:
- Vitamin D (UVB) experiment and lamp comparison - Toxinless


The researchers below decided to intoxicate people twice through different means.

- Major inter-personal variation in the increase and maximal level of 25-hydroxy vitamin D induced by UVB
- Serum 25(OH)D levels after oral vitamin D3 supplementation and UVB exposure correlate

"Out of the numerous randomized clinical trials conducted on the effect of oral vitamin D supplementation on serum 25(OH)D, only a few trials present data that allow a rough assessment of the variation in the individual 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3 supplementation.[4-8] These trials suggest that the inter‐individual variation is wide[9-14] and may be confounded by additional ambient solar exposure (season, sun habits and clothing habits),[15,16] ethnicity,[17] BMI[18], genetics,[16] weight and physical activity.[19] Accordingly, subgroups of individuals characterized by certain individual traits may exhibit relatively low serum 25(OH)D responses to a recommended dose of vitamin D3 supplementation. These subgroups may fail to maintain an optimal concentration of serum 25(OH)D on a yearly basis, which could increase the risk of osteoporosis and fragility fractures at older age. It is therefore important to increase our understanding of this fundamental aspect of treatment with vitamin D supplementation."

"Participants received a bottle containing sufficient vitamin D3 tablets (Killciol/Choreluciferol, Apovit®, Takeda Pharma A/S) to cover the entire study period. They were instructed to consume one vitamin D3 tablet per day corresponding to 85 μg (3400 IU). Tablets were counted at each visit with 25(OH)D3 sampling to control for compliance and adverse events registered."

"Three years earlier, from October to December, the same participants participated in a controlled UVB study. They received identical and artificial UVB irradiation on around 80% of their body surface area for nine weeks as part of a larger study group.[3][⇈] UVR cabinets from Waldmann, Willingen‐Schwenningen, Germany with 26 F85/100W UV6 tubes (broadband UVB: 290‐360 nm) were used."

"During UV irradiation, the participants wore a UV protective helmet covering head/face and underwear covering buttocks. Irradiation time was determined and regulated by measuring UV intensity with a Sola‐Hazard spectroradiometer (Solatell). The UVB intervention consisted of 0.94 kJ/m² (two SEDs) bi‐weekly the first 2 weeks, tri‐weekly for the following 5 weeks and 1.4 kJ/m² (three SEDs) tri‐weekly the last two weeks of the study (total UVB dose: 26 kJ/m² [56 SEDs]).[3]"

Spoiler

This garbage is more impacting during deficiency, so they have disconsidered it to compare the effect starting from different levels.

"There was considerable inter‐individual variation in the mean 25(OH) D3 increase (mean Δ25(OH)D3 [how much it changed during the period] = 53 nmol/L, range 17‐91 nmol/L, span 74 nmol/L) induced by vitamin D3 supplementation. The mean Δ25(OH)D3 was similar (P = 0.66) to the mean Δ25(OH)D3 of 52 nmol/L after 9 weeks of UVB exposure. The inter‐individual variation in the vitamin D3‐induced Δ25(OH)D3 was about half of what was observed after UVB irradiation (range 2.9‐139 nmol/L, span 136 nmol/L)."

"Therefore, the interquartile [excluding the oppressed minority] ranges were compared. After vitamin D3 supplementation, the interquartile range was 38.8 to 71.4 nmol/L (span: 32.6 nmol/L) and similar to the interquartile range after the prior UVB irradiation (35.7‐65.4 nmol/L, span: 29.7 nmol/L). The variances were not significantly different in both interventions (P = 0.57). The inter‐individual variation in the 25(OH) D response to vitamin D3 supplementation and UVB is shown in Figure 2."

Spoiler

"Despite, an almost half as wide inter‐individual variation in the Δ25(OH)D3 after vitamin D3 supplementation than after UVB irradiation the spans of the interquartile ranges were similar in both interventions. This suggests that the individual efficacy of vitamin D3 supplementation on serum 25(OH)D3 is, if not better, at least close to that of UVB."

"Ionized Ca2+ decreased significantly (P = 0.003) from study start to study end, most likely due to the lack of concurrent calcium supplementation."

"Only few studies have compared vitamin D supplementation with controlled UVB irradiation.[36,37]"

"The mean Δ25(OH)D3 was 53 nmol/L after a daily vitamin D3 supplement dose of 85 μg. This equals to an increase of 0.6 nmol/L 25(OH)D3 per μg vitamin D3 supplement. The reported slopes from other studies vary and range from 0.3 to as much as 5.5 nmol/L increase per μg vitamin D3 supplement administered orally.[25,27,38-44] For the daily dose of 80 μg very similar to ours, Gallagher et al[27] found a slightly higher increase rate of 0.85 nmol/L 25(OH)D per μg vitamin D3 supplement. As the mean 25(OH)D3 start level was around 20 nmol/L higher in this study, this could explain the difference in efficacy."

"Gallagher also treated healthy individuals with six different doses of μg vitamin D3 supplement ranging between 10 μg and 120 μg for one year. After six‐month treatment, each treatment arm had reached its maximal 25(OH)D level showing a mean overall plateau of 112 nmol/L. Thus, with increasing daily doses of supplement, the 25(OH)D increase per μg vitamin D3 supplement decreases.[27] This is consistent with the low to moderate vitamin D3 supplement dose (5‐20 μg per day) studies that tend to yield higher efficiency of treatment.[38-40,43,44]"

"The 25(OH)D3 end level in this study of 115 nmol/L is very similar to the plateau level found by Gallagher. At study end, there was an insignificant but mean increase of 6 nmol/L. It is therefore uncertain if the therapeutic effect perhaps was maximized at the end of this study. Heaney et al[41] reported a plateau level of about 150 nmol/L after a daily dose of 125 μg. Therefore, there is some uncertainty about the exact level of such an upper plateau. Also, there was wide dispersion of the distribution of the individual plateau level (about 60 nmol/L to 160 nmol/L) in the study by Gallagher."

"In conclusion, there was a major inter‐individual variation in the 25(OH)D3 increase after vitamin D3 supplementation and UVB irradiation suggesting an equal individual efficacy of both interventions. There was no common demographic but a partially common genetic background for the inter‐individual variation in both interventions. Consequently, persons characterized by certain individual genetic traits may not respond sufficiently to recommended doses of vitamin D3 supplementation."

Spoiler

All I really meant is that consuming canola oil as your main fat can be expected to suppress metabolism and lead to weight gain.

The animals were ingesting venom D (extremely toxic!!1), a small portion of their calories from canola oil is not the main concern in this case. You can compare treatments on animals that were on the same condition (ignoring high-fat group, for example).

 

[Gone Peating]

Thank you for the clear explanation. So you are not 100% joking when you name some vitamins poison and venom. It reflects some deep opinions you have about them.

This dude beats to death every food and supplement with his endless posting of random studies. Best to ignore his posts imo

 

[UltraSuperior]

Use an UVB lamp.

 

[mouse]

I had problems with Vitamin D3 (sun or supplement, didn't matter) from being low in copper, manganese and thiamine. It took me years to figure those out because there's no discussion on those - it's probably just a few people who have that issue. It still aggravates my histamine, maybe because anything serotogenic aggravates my histamine issues, however I still need it for maintaining some level of estrogen and my immune system suffers without it.

In any case, if someone feels bad from Vitamin D3, there's a chance that it is sarcoidosis, especially if taking a corticosteroid resolves it.

 

[Mossy]

I had problems with Vitamin D3 (sun or supplement, didn't matter) from being low in copper, manganese and thiamine. It took me years to figure those out because there's no discussion on those - it's probably just a few people who have that issue. It still aggravates my histamine, maybe because anything serotogenic aggravates my histamine issues, however I still need it for maintaining some level of estrogen and my immune system suffers without it.

In any case, if someone feels bad from Vitamin D3, there's a chance that it is sarcoidosis, especially if taking a corticosteroid resolves it.

I am similar to you on this. Both D3 and K2 do this to me. Can you please share how you specifically remedied this with copper, manganese, and thiamine? Via supplements and food both?

 

[mouse]

I am similar to you on this. Both D3 and K2 do this to me. Can you please share how you specifically remedied this with copper, manganese, and thiamine? Via supplements and food both?

By supplement, because histamine issues affect what I can eat. It is interesting that you mention Vitamin K2, I had problems with that as well, and it was manganese that was needed (2-5mg/meal and it helped with tolerating K2, D3, iodine, selenium). I wish I knew why that was.

 

[artist]

@mouse does vitamin d help or deplete your copper status? I have experimented with high dose D this week and I am not sure if it's helping or hurting
Definitely get major estrogenic effects from taking D3 but as you mentioned elsewhere it seems like maybe some estrogen is needed for copper status
I'm curious about your copper supplementation as I am really struggling with getting my levels up and I am concerned about how much copper I'm taking with not much effect.
(Also, histamine intolerance was/is my main issue too before the copper thing became a crisis.)

 

[Mossy]

By supplement, because histamine issues affect what I can eat. It is interesting that you mention Vitamin K2, I had problems with that as well, and it was manganese that was needed (2-5mg/meal and it helped with tolerating K2, D3, iodine, selenium). I wish I knew why that was.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing. I’ll try this and see if it is the missing piece for me.

 

[mouse]

@mouse does vitamin d help or deplete your copper status? I have experimented with high dose D this week and I am not sure if it's helping or hurting
Definitely get major estrogenic effects from taking D3 but as you mentioned elsewhere it seems like maybe some estrogen is needed for copper status
I'm curious about your copper supplementation as I am really struggling with getting my levels up and I am concerned about how much copper I'm taking with not much effect.
(Also, histamine intolerance was/is my main issue too before the copper thing became a crisis.)

I find that the Vitamin D helps with copper retention but I think it is indirectly by increasing estrogen. My reasoning is that I have a stomach pain that happens when estrogen is low. DHEA helps, but estriol or estradiol helps a lot better even at tiny doses. Progesterone and iodine makes it much worse. Vitamin D helps but nowhere near as well as estrogen. (50K IU every 3-4 days) When I was really low in copper, I was taking 9-12 mg of supplemental copper a day to prevent sinusitis from low copper. I found that adding estrogen (estradiol or estriol) or Vitamin D allowed me to reduce the copper dose. But only with high doses of Vitamin D and nowhere near as well as estrogen. Hence my reasoning that Vitamin D helps retain copper indirectly.

The copper itself hurts my stomach so copper doesn't increase my estrogen as far as I can tell. I sometimes resort to adding some estrogen when it gets bothersome enough. I'm currently taking 3mg of copper/day (from copper bisglycinate) and I try to take enough Vitamin D3 to minimize adding any estrogen but I'm not always successful.

With no copper from supplements but with Vitamin D, serum copper was 12.4 (9.0-23.0). I hope to get another test with the current 3mg/day supplementation.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing. I’ll try this and see if it is the missing piece for me.

I've found that the manganese needs 24 hours (basically 3 meals) head start before trying things that depend on it.

 

[artist]

I find that the Vitamin D helps with copper retention but I think it is indirectly by increasing estrogen. My reasoning is that I have a stomach pain that happens when estrogen is low. DHEA helps, but estriol or estradiol helps a lot better even at tiny doses. Progesterone and iodine makes it much worse. Vitamin D helps but nowhere near as well as estrogen. (50K IU every 3-4 days) When I was really low in copper, I was taking 9-12 mg of supplemental copper a day to prevent sinusitis from low copper. I found that adding estrogen (estradiol or estriol) or Vitamin D allowed me to reduce the copper dose. But only with high doses of Vitamin D and nowhere near as well as estrogen. Hence my reasoning that Vitamin D helps retain copper indirectly.

The copper itself hurts my stomach so copper doesn't increase my estrogen as far as I can tell. I sometimes resort to adding some estrogen when it gets bothersome enough. I'm currently taking 3mg of copper/day (from copper bisglycinate) and I try to take enough Vitamin D3 to minimize adding any estrogen but I'm not always successful.

With no copper from supplements but with Vitamin D, serum copper was 12.4 (9.0-23.0). I hope to get another test with the current 3mg/day supplementation.



I've found that the manganese needs 24 hours (basically 3 meals) head start before trying things that depend on it.

My main low copper symptom is vein/blood vessel weakness along with some other things. I am taking dosages around that and anything that impacts copper seems to immediately make everything worse (including important stuff for collagen like vitamin C). Although it seems like zinc and caffeine (as well as fructose) worsen it the most - maybe from the anti-estrogen effects? I had insane cravings for maple syrup for a long time so I added manganese this week too. I am probably going to try the estrogen thing because vitamin D gives me too much joint pain/cracking at higher levels.

 

[lampofred]

I find that the Vitamin D helps with copper retention but I think it is indirectly by increasing estrogen. My reasoning is that I have a stomach pain that happens when estrogen is low. DHEA helps, but estriol or estradiol helps a lot better even at tiny doses. Progesterone and iodine makes it much worse. Vitamin D helps but nowhere near as well as estrogen. (50K IU every 3-4 days) When I was really low in copper, I was taking 9-12 mg of supplemental copper a day to prevent sinusitis from low copper. I found that adding estrogen (estradiol or estriol) or Vitamin D allowed me to reduce the copper dose. But only with high doses of Vitamin D and nowhere near as well as estrogen. Hence my reasoning that Vitamin D helps retain copper indirectly.

The copper itself hurts my stomach so copper doesn't increase my estrogen as far as I can tell. I sometimes resort to adding some estrogen when it gets bothersome enough. I'm currently taking 3mg of copper/day (from copper bisglycinate) and I try to take enough Vitamin D3 to minimize adding any estrogen but I'm not always successful.

With no copper from supplements but with Vitamin D, serum copper was 12.4 (9.0-23.0). I hope to get another test with the current 3mg/day supplementation.



I've found that the manganese needs 24 hours (basically 3 meals) head start before trying things that depend on it.

I had problems with Vitamin D3 (sun or supplement, didn't matter) from being low in copper, manganese and thiamine. It took me years to figure those out because there's no discussion on those - it's probably just a few people who have that issue. It still aggravates my histamine, maybe because anything serotogenic aggravates my histamine issues, however I still need it for maintaining some level of estrogen and my immune system suffers without it.

In any case, if someone feels bad from Vitamin D3, there's a chance that it is sarcoidosis, especially if taking a corticosteroid resolves it.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'm starting to think what vitamin D does is to turn off stress-driven increases in metabolism. Because cortisol has anti-estrogenic effects, anything that lowers cortisol is going to increase the effect of estrogen. But vit D is not increasing estrogen by directly causing harm like PUFA does. It's the inverse of salt in a sense.

 

[mouse]

I had insane cravings for maple syrup for a long time so I added manganese this week too. I am probably going to try the estrogen thing because vitamin D gives me too much joint pain/cracking at higher levels.

Good luck with the manganese. I do have ankle cracking that I haven't figured out yet, my research suggests things like manganese and vitamin K2. When my estrogen levels were at their worst, I could not bend my knees fully (like it would not rotate past the last 20-30 degrees of movement), but they didn't hurt at all. I kept thinking that if my estrogen was low, my joints should hurt because that's what people say.. Oh well, I wasted 6 months by not trying estrogen. Please post what you find out.

 

[Mossy]

I find that the Vitamin D helps with copper retention but I think it is indirectly by increasing estrogen. My reasoning is that I have a stomach pain that happens when estrogen is low. DHEA helps, but estriol or estradiol helps a lot better even at tiny doses. Progesterone and iodine makes it much worse. Vitamin D helps but nowhere near as well as estrogen. (50K IU every 3-4 days) When I was really low in copper, I was taking 9-12 mg of supplemental copper a day to prevent sinusitis from low copper. I found that adding estrogen (estradiol or estriol) or Vitamin D allowed me to reduce the copper dose. But only with high doses of Vitamin D and nowhere near as well as estrogen. Hence my reasoning that Vitamin D helps retain copper indirectly.

The copper itself hurts my stomach so copper doesn't increase my estrogen as far as I can tell. I sometimes resort to adding some estrogen when it gets bothersome enough. I'm currently taking 3mg of copper/day (from copper bisglycinate) and I try to take enough Vitamin D3 to minimize adding any estrogen but I'm not always successful.

With no copper from supplements but with Vitamin D, serum copper was 12.4 (9.0-23.0). I hope to get another test with the current 3mg/day supplementation.



I've found that the manganese needs 24 hours (basically 3 meals) head start before trying things that depend on it.

This is good to know. Thanks.

How were you supplementing estradiol, the Life-Flo cream? It seems we are similar, because I have low estradiol also. I will consider this after the manganese test.

 

[mouse]

How were you supplementing estradiol, the Life-Flo cream?

I used Life-Flo estriol cream first, then Ona's Natural estriol, then the estradiol cream. Ona's has less additives, if that is important to you. Ona's Natural Progesterone Cream

 

[Mossy]

I used Life-Flo estriol cream first, then Ona's Natural estriol, then the estradiol cream. Ona's has less additives, if that is important to you. Ona's Natural Progesterone Cream

Yes, less additives would be a plus. Thank you.