Balancing Zinc And Copper In The Body

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Brian

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YuraCZ said:
post 110937
Skally said:
Do you guys have access to turkey liver?
Higher in vitamin a than beef liver (a lot higher than chicken liver) and very low in copper. The taste is also pretty good, definitely better than beef liver.

Yes.. More expensive, but good I agree.. But right now I'm trying low fat, low cholesterol diet because my metabolism is really f***ed. Since I go through this copper detox( which is just lower copper diet max 2mg a day + 30mg of zinc and some organic sulfur) I'm freezing all the time. Digestion is really bad etc.. So I thing too much fat or cholesterol is not good at this point. Same with too much calcium.. RIght now I have Ideal fat intake I think. Around 40g a day - 20g saturated- 15 mono and 2,5 omega 3 and 2,5 omega 6. I hope this helps with inflammation as well..

My best results come from K2 (and adequate A and D) + magnesium + Thiamine for getting my minerals sorted out. A high carb diet made me freeze until I got enough magnesium, sodium and thiamine into my cells and the calcium out. No amount of messing with zinc or copper did anything until I figured this out.
 
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YuraCZ

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Derek said:
post 110939
YuraCZ said:
post 110937
Skally said:
Do you guys have access to turkey liver?
Higher in vitamin a than beef liver (a lot higher than chicken liver) and very low in copper. The taste is also pretty good, definitely better than beef liver.

Yes.. More expensive, but good I agree.. But right now I'm trying low fat, low cholesterol diet because my metabolism is really f***ed. Since I go through this copper detox( which is just lower copper diet max 2mg a day + 30mg of zinc and some organic sulfur) I'm freezing all the time. Digestion is really bad etc.. So I thing too much fat or cholesterol is not good at this point. Same with too much calcium.. RIght now I have Ideal fat intake I think. Around 40g a day - 20g saturated- 15 mono and 2,5 omega 3 and 2,5 omega 6. I hope this helps with inflammation as well..

How long is this "copper detox" supposed to last? What type of zinc do you take?
It depends how long you was under heavy stress, estrogen.. And I was taking steroids for years. I had crazy high estradiol for years. :(
 
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YuraCZ

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Brian said:
post 110941
YuraCZ said:
post 110937
Skally said:
Do you guys have access to turkey liver?
Higher in vitamin a than beef liver (a lot higher than chicken liver) and very low in copper. The taste is also pretty good, definitely better than beef liver.

Yes.. More expensive, but good I agree.. But right now I'm trying low fat, low cholesterol diet because my metabolism is really f***ed. Since I go through this copper detox( which is just lower copper diet max 2mg a day + 30mg of zinc and some organic sulfur) I'm freezing all the time. Digestion is really bad etc.. So I thing too much fat or cholesterol is not good at this point. Same with too much calcium.. RIght now I have Ideal fat intake I think. Around 40g a day - 20g saturated- 15 mono and 2,5 omega 3 and 2,5 omega 6. I hope this helps with inflammation as well..

My best results come from K2 (and adequate A and D) + magnesium + Thiamine for getting my minerals sorted out. A high carb diet made me freeze until I got enough magnesium, sodium and thiamine into my cells and the calcium out. No amount of messing with zinc or copper did anything until I figured this out.
I need crazy amount of sea salt right now. I agree with vitA, magnesium, B vitamins, vitC and also sulfur (MSM) is very important for glutathione and detoxification. But Im not sure with vit D. Vit D will drop vit A levels( which is important for ceruloplasmin) and will increase calcium and I really dont want this.. I know it is not Peat approved. But I eat sardines and there is enough vitD.. Also very good form of selenium and again not Peat approved omega3 for proper overall PUFA ration 1:1..
 
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Brian

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YuraCZ said:
post 110945
Brian said:
post 110941
YuraCZ said:
post 110937
Skally said:
Do you guys have access to turkey liver?
Higher in vitamin a than beef liver (a lot higher than chicken liver) and very low in copper. The taste is also pretty good, definitely better than beef liver.

Yes.. More expensive, but good I agree.. But right now I'm trying low fat, low cholesterol diet because my metabolism is really f***ed. Since I go through this copper detox( which is just lower copper diet max 2mg a day + 30mg of zinc and some organic sulfur) I'm freezing all the time. Digestion is really bad etc.. So I thing too much fat or cholesterol is not good at this point. Same with too much calcium.. RIght now I have Ideal fat intake I think. Around 40g a day - 20g saturated- 15 mono and 2,5 omega 3 and 2,5 omega 6. I hope this helps with inflammation as well..

My best results come from K2 (and adequate A and D) + magnesium + Thiamine for getting my minerals sorted out. A high carb diet made me freeze until I got enough magnesium, sodium and thiamine into my cells and the calcium out. No amount of messing with zinc or copper did anything until I figured this out.
I need crazy amount of sea salt right now. I agree with vitA, magnesium, B vitamins, vitC and also sulfur (MSM) is very important for glutathione and detoxification. But Im not sure with vit D. Vit D will drop vit A levels( which is important for ceruloplasmin) and will increase calcium and I really dont want this.. I know it is not Peat approved. But I eat sardines and there is enough vitD.. Also very good form of selenium and again not Peat approved omega3 for proper overall PUFA ration 1:1..

I agree. I'm not sure vitamin D from supplement is always advised especially when there is significant soft tissue calcification.
 
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YuraCZ

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What? More vitD if there is soft tissue calcification? Really? Interesting.. I would say more K2 and magnesium and not vitD..
 
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Brian

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YuraCZ said:
post 110947 What? More vitD if there is soft tissue calcification? Really? Interesting.. I would say more K2 and magnesium and not vitD..

No I'm agreeing with you. I think D3 might not be helpful if magnesium is low and tissue calcium is high.
 
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YuraCZ

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Brian said:
post 110954
YuraCZ said:
post 110947 What? More vitD if there is soft tissue calcification? Really? Interesting.. I would say more K2 and magnesium and not vitD..

No I'm agreeing with you. I think D3 might not be helpful if magnesium is low and tissue calcium is high.
Btw which form of K2 you take? I take couple of months thorne 3 drops a days and I dont see any changes.. But before that I was eating homemade natto about 40g a day and I had really clean teeth without any plaque. So I think that MK7 in natural form is very effective. But I'm not sure if it's worth it eat that disgusting soy. :roll:
 
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Brian

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YuraCZ said:
post 110957
Brian said:
post 110954
YuraCZ said:
post 110947 What? More vitD if there is soft tissue calcification? Really? Interesting.. I would say more K2 and magnesium and not vitD..

No I'm agreeing with you. I think D3 might not be helpful if magnesium is low and tissue calcium is high.
Btw which form of K2 you take? I take couple of months thorne 3 drops a days and I dont see any changes.. But before that I was eating homemade natto about 40g a day and I had really clean teeth without any plaque. So I think that MK7 in natural form is very effective. But I'm not sure if it's worth it eat that disgusting soy. :roll:

I think it's the blood level that counts. So if you use K2 Mk4 it should probably be transdermal if you want constant blood levels, since it leaves the blood and enters tissues within a few hours if you take it orally. But I've also taken an oral product that contained K1, K2 Mk7 and Mk4 and it worked well, so it might have been the Mk7 that was keeping my blood levels higher.
 
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Derek

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Brian said:
post 110960
YuraCZ said:
post 110957
Brian said:
post 110954
YuraCZ said:
post 110947 What? More vitD if there is soft tissue calcification? Really? Interesting.. I would say more K2 and magnesium and not vitD..

No I'm agreeing with you. I think D3 might not be helpful if magnesium is low and tissue calcium is high.
Btw which form of K2 you take? I take couple of months thorne 3 drops a days and I dont see any changes.. But before that I was eating homemade natto about 40g a day and I had really clean teeth without any plaque. So I think that MK7 in natural form is very effective. But I'm not sure if it's worth it eat that disgusting soy. :roll:

I think it's the blood level that counts. So if you use K2 Mk4 it should probably be transdermal if you want constant blood levels, since it leaves the blood and enters tissues within a few hours. But I've also taken an oral product that contained K1, K2 Mk7 and Mk4 and it worked well, so it might have been the Mk7 that was keeping my blood levels higher.

MK7 stays in the blood much longer than MK4. Also, well aged cheese is a good source in my opinion of both 4 & 7. Jarrow MK7 is one that I've used, which is extracted from Natto. It works better than MK4 in my experience, but like Brian said, maybe MK4 should be applied transdermally.
 
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YuraCZ

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When I watch natto on nutrition data. I see only one negative in micronutrient profile. Which is around 3g of omega 6 for 50g(one serving) so I dont know if it's worth it. But maybe yes because I have issues with tartar and some calcium in the arteries as well for sure.. Another think is. It is so much cheaper in this dose when I make my own vs just buy capsules from Jarrow..
 

Orion

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Brian said:
post 108149 It's all over the place, usually low fat though. Fairly low copper, I don't eat liver or oyster. Other than getting supplemental Vitamin A, K, B6, zinc and magnesium I've focused much more on lifestyle and being outdoors as much as possible over the last year.

Hi Brian, what daily dosage of A/K/B6/Zn are you taking? Still taking B1 and Taurine as well, how much?

Brian said:
post 108149 That's pretty similar to what I've been doing and experienced. I think supplemental A and K1/k2 has been key to the process for me though, without using liver as my main source for them to avoid excessive copper intake.

This seems to be the path on I am on, going to cut out liver and try A/K again. In the past A/K always aggravate acne for me, but I have been doing lots of oral and transdermal Mag since the past summer. Calcium levels are somehow related to acne, a low calcium diet will make my acne explode.
 
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Brian

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Orion said:
post 118001
Brian said:
post 108149 It's all over the place, usually low fat though. Fairly low copper, I don't eat liver or oyster. Other than getting supplemental Vitamin A, K, B6, zinc and magnesium I've focused much more on lifestyle and being outdoors as much as possible over the last year.

Hi Brian, what daily dosage of A/K/B6/Zn are you taking? Still taking B1 and Taurine as well, how much?

Brian said:
post 108149 That's pretty similar to what I've been doing and experienced. I think supplemental A and K1/k2 has been key to the process for me though, without using liver as my main source for them to avoid excessive copper intake.

This seems to be the path on I am on, going to cut out liver and try A/K again. In the past A/K always aggravate acne for me, but I have been doing lots of oral and transdermal Mag since the past summer. Calcium levels are somehow related to acne, a low calcium diet will make my acne explode.

I'm currently taking a break from all supplements except for K2, magnesium, and B1. A few drops of Thorne on my wrist per day.
 
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Orion

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Brian said:
post 118121 I'm currently taking a break from all supplements except for K2, magnesium, and B1. A few drops of Thorne on my wrist per day.

Still seeing progress? Curious how much B1 per day, getting some today, RDA is like 1mg. I think most here are doing 500mg - 1g/day?
 
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Amazoniac

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Copper bioavailability and requirements - Harold Sandstead

"It is generally believed that copper deficiency does not occur in persons consuming mixed Western diets, who are free of disease. This opinion is based, in part, on the belief that mixed Western diets provide 2 to 5 mg of copper daily (8), an amount sufficient to satisfy requirements estimated from balance studies (9-28). However, contemporary analysis of the copper content of diets suggests that many provide less than 2 mg of copper daily and that intakes of less than 1 mg of copper/day are not rare (29-32)"

"Our data suggest that both dietary zinc and protein influence the copper requirement. It appears that persons who habitually consume diets high in zinc and low in protein have an increased risk of copper deficiency. On the other hand, an increased intake of protein at a given dietary level of zinc tends to lower the requirement for copper. This lowering of copper requirement by protein is in contrast to the data in Table 3"

"Our data suggest that the addition of sources of dietary fiber to a mixed Western diet, low in fiber sources, will increase the copper requirement. Phytate (myoinositol hexaphosphate) present in the sources of dietary fiber may impair the bioavailability of copper (44). Copper is second only to zinc in the formation of stable complexes with phytate. In descending order from copper; nickel, cobalt, manganese, calcium, and iron form less stable complexes (45). It may be that copper will also form complexes with hemi-cellulose and lignin fractions of dietary fiber, but will do so less avidly than zinc (46,47). Observations in persons fed fruit and vegetable diets were consistent with this suggestion. The high levels of dietary fiber in fruit and vegetables were believed responsible for depressed copper retention (22). The effect of pectin on retention of both copper and zinc had been tested in humans and found to be negligible (27). Cellulose was not found to impair copper retention in rats (48). In addition to forming insoluble complexes with phytate and some fractions of dietary fiber, it seems possible that copper will combine with products of the Maillard reaction formed during cooking, as do iron and zinc (49,50). Other potential binders of copper are phytate-amino acid complexes formed during processing of plant proteins containing phytate (41)."

"Copper bioavailability is also suppressed by high dietary levels of ascorbic acid (52). This phenomenon causes copper deficiency in chicks (53), rabbits (54), and rats (55), resulting in cardiovascular injury and increased serum cholesterol. It may be speculated that these phenomena are of significance for humans who supplement themselves with pharmacological amounts of ascorbic acid, particularly if at the same time, their diets are marginal in copper (55)."

"Our data suggest that copper bioavailability is facilitated by dietary protein. Consistent with our findings, Greger and Snedeker (20) found that the retention of copper was significantly greater when the diet was high in protein (150 g) compared to a lower intake of protein (51 g)."

"Because picolinic acid facilitates zinc absorption of rats fed diets limited in either tryptophan (59) or pyridoxin (60), and stimulates growth of rats fed diets based on soy protein or casein (61), it seems likely that the higher binding affinity of picolinic acid for copper than for zinc implies that picolinic acid will compete successfully with some ligands in the intestinal lumen that form insoluble complexes with copper, and thus will improve the bioavailability of copper."​

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/03/04/manage-zinc-status/

"An acceptable zinc-to-copper ratio is somewhere between 2:1 and 15:1 in favor of zinc. On the background of a copper-rich diet, 15 mg/d of zinc probably doesn’t matter. But at doses higher than this, I would supplement with copper at an approximately 10:1 ratio (give or take). At doses higher than 30 mg/d, I would strongly consider supplementing with a low-dose mixed trace mineral supplement, such as a single serving per day of ConcenTrace."

"Ten milligrams is probably sufficient. I would feel safe with 20 milligrams of zinc, as long as you include 2 milligrams of copper. If you’re gonna go higher, I’d feel comfortable with 40 milligrams if there’s a very good cause for it, but I wouldn’t go that high unless it’s needed, and in that case, I would increase copper proportionally, and I would use a low-dose background of other trace minerals to prevent other deficiencies."

"oxidative stress in general is going to elicit more metallothionein production. And unlike mercury and other heavy metals, copper has been studied in how it activates metallothionein. Copper actually only activates metallothionein when you have an excess of free copper that’s contributing to oxidative stress. This is really critical to realize later when we talk about the interactions between zinc and copper because metallothionein is a very specific response to the amount of zinc you have available across a very broad range, but it’s only gonna kick in in response to copper if you have a crisis of too much copper."

"The real concern about too much zinc is in the case of interfering with other minerals, especially copper, through increased production of metallothionein. So earlier in this episode, I was saying how metallothionein is primarily responding to zinc and primarily increasing in order to take up zinc and control where it goes. But metallothionein can also bind to many other metals. And in the case of copper, this is the interaction that we have most clearly demonstrated as an adverse effect of zinc supplementation.

When you take a high dose of zinc, it increases metallothionein in the intestines, and then the copper in your diet can get bound up by that metallothionein and just like the zinc, can stay in the intestinal cell until the cells slough off into the feces. That copper then gets bound up in your intestinal cell, never gets absorbed into your body in the true sense, and this winds up going out in the feces.

And there are multiple studies showing that 50 milligrams per day of zinc can, in as little as 12 days and also over the course of 6-10 weeks, decrease superoxide dismutase activity. Now, SOD, superoxide dismutase, is zinc-dependent, but it’s also copper-dependent. So if a high dose of zinc blunts its activity, the most sensible interpretation is that you prevented the absorption of copper in the intestines.

Now, this doesn’t work both ways. Zinc elicits an increase in metallothionein in a very linear fashion across the spectrum of zinc status, and the more you have, the more likely you are to get copper caught in that net. But it’s not true that copper does the same thing. Copper only elicits a metallothionein response when it’s at the border of copper toxicity, when it’s causing oxidative stress that then makes metallothionein kick in.

Now, as I discussed in the episode on copper at chrismasterjohnphd.com/33, you have a lot of ability to control your copper absorption, so it’s not the case that linearly, any increment in zinc status requires the same increment of copper. Yes, an incremental increase in zinc will elicit a proportional increase in metallothionein, but because you have the ability to control your copper absorption, you can just ramp up copper absorption in response to that. The problem is when you exceed a certain threshold, you’re catching copper into that net at a level that exceeds the capacity for you to adjust your copper absorption. And the borderline, or at least where it’s been most clearly demonstrated, is with 50 milligrams of zinc per day.

This, in fact, is the basis of the upper limit set by the Institute of Medicine. They assumed that 50 milligrams had an average dietary background of 10 milligrams, and they came to 60, and then they divided that by a safety factor to set the upper limit at 40 milligrams per day. I actually think this is totally rational, and I think it’s very wise to follow the upper limit.

In infants zinc supplementation at 16 milligrams per day has caused copper deficiency anemia. And the upper limit for everyone from infants through the age of 18 is all based on the finding that 4.5 milligrams per day in infant formula over the course of six months did not lead to any adverse effects, and so they adjusted it upwards by body weight."

"There have been studies showing that 45 milligrams per day decreases infection, inflammation, and oxidative stress in elderly people and doesn’t affect plasma copper. But they didn’t measure superoxide dismutase activity, which is the marker that was affected by 50 milligrams of zinc per day. So I’m not quite comfortable saying that 45 milligrams per day is totally safe, although clearly, it does have some benefit in some contexts.

You could look at this, and you could say, “well, couldn’t you just supplement with zinc and copper?” And I think that’s true, but I think that there’s an unresolved question about what does the extra metallothionein do to all your other trace minerals? There are a lot of other minerals, like molybdenum and chromium, and across the board, most of these positively charged metals are gonna bind to metallothionein to some extent. And so I don’t think it’s quite settled yet that the only issue you have to worry about is copper. I think it’s very possible that there are under-explored and under-researched negative influences of high-dose zinc on status of other minerals.

So I think that the conservative thing to do with supplementation is to limit supplementation, at least over the course of long-term, to no more than 20 milligrams per day, unless you’re also going to supply copper in maybe a 10:1 ratio. So with 20 milligrams, add 2 milligrams copper. With 40 milligrams, add 4 milligrams copper. But also some background of a mixed trace mineral supplement, as well, just to cover the bases."​

Using the tables from the study above, I expanded the graph (below) that can be found here. From their data, a reasonable ratio of zinc to copper is 10-15:1. However it isn't fixed: balance is achieved on lower ratios when their intake is low. When intakes are increased, the amounts required for balance don't increase in a linear fashion (the pixelized curve : idi), the needs then are greater on the side of zinc than copper. Since Chris mentioned that copper absorption is more controlled, as long as you eat plenty of copper, you have a safe margin for greater intakes of zinczord.
upload_2018-2-27_15-56-34.png

 
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Amazoniac

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Chris is a reliable source.
I'm not. There is a mistake there on my part, the weird curve should have the concavity down. But the idea is that zinc doesn't increase in proportion to copper. Like it was mentioned, the increases are greater on the side of zinc, so it's difficult to set a ratio because it will depend on the amount that people are consuming. When people are consuming plenty, the balance ratio will be higher. However, there are various confouding things because you can ingest a lot of copper for example and even the levels through others means:

ARL : My Experience With Copperheads
zinc, manganese, molybdenum, Vitamin B-1, vitamin C and vitamin B-6
Coffee? Thyroid?
 
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