Balancing Zinc And Copper In The Body

[Sheila]

And goats milk and products tend to have more copper than zinc. All of our assumptions do depend on how the cows are fed. When we are in drought here, the commercial milk quality, even the better stuff, seems to go down hill so the trace minerals will likely reduce too along with everything else.

Copper excess was all the rage here for some years, zinc supplementation made some people much worse, generally the women (and all with so called 'zinc' signs). Interestingly molybdnenum and zinc was suggested instead which these 'worse with zinc supplementation alone' patients did quite well on. Moly is used to detoxify histamine in the body so I suspect now that was what it was doing. It is of course toxic in all but the smallest quantities, if I had known how to reduce histamine back then, that would have been smarter.

I am still baffled why relatively large zinc and prolonged zinc supplementation seems to improve things for boys (presuming they are not spending their whole time donating it (and their selenium supplies) elsewhere as quick as it is swallowed ) when it really is a trace mineral. Where is it all going? Is its absorption being blocked? Is it just poor absorption (maybe HCl issues?)? Are we storing up trouble for later?
Doesn't the body increase uptake (all other factors being equal) if something is very deficient, and slow it as it becomes replete? Or is that 'intelligence' also an energy-dependent function?

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd be pleased to hear them! Thanks.

Sheila

 

[Sheila]

Oh look you clever people have already had a go at this one

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3602

I always learn so much.
Cheers
Sheila

 

[moss]

I agree with Sheila I always learn so much here...

Hi Brian
As vitamin B is an excellent metabolic partner I wonder if B6 used in isolation may not metabolise as well, when the other Bs are not present, unsure of this perhaps someone has thoughts on this?
Perhaps you have already come across Energin? A liquid B vitamin preparation (B1, B2, B3, B6 and B7) developed by one of the members on this forum - search the forum for more details.
Biotin (B7) may help with zinc def and extend the life of zinc and especially where there is a low vitamin B status. And low zinc you will likely have low vitamin A. Have you given bone broths a go? very helpful where there may digestive issues and gives your body a rest from meat.
It has been my experience and have had good reports back with aspirin (pure) being very helpful for Anosmia.
And FYI Vitex agnus cactus aka Chasteberry, (herbal tincture or extract) also works well for it's hormone balancing effects and blocks prolactin.
I am sure you are well aware if you have been on any of the pharmaceuticals such as anti-inflammatories, antacids, acid blockers,antibiotics etc they rob the body of zinc big time.
And reducing copper excess vitamin C may play a role here, not sure where you are located but if you can get your hands on a big jar of acerola cherries may be worth a try, my two bobs worth.
Good luck moss

 

[Giraffe]

post 64378

Hi Brian, I wonder if you could give us an update.

 

[Brian]

post 64378

Hi Brian, I wonder if you could give us an update.

I've learned a lot since this post. My views are a lot different now. Basically now I think zinc and copper take care of themselves for the most part if you address more fundamental issues of basic cellular metabolism. Being replete in vitamin A with enough K and D is probably the most fundamental thing. Getting calcium and magnesium in the right places seems to strongly impact the fate of the trace minerals (zinc, copper, iron, selenium, etc), but magnesium itself doesn't seem to be absorbed, retained or utilized well without adequate progesterone.

So, that's why I think being replete in vitamin A with a balance of the other fat solubles is probably the first thing to address when trying to get copper and zinc working properly in the body. As Dr. Garrett Smith puts it, "The fat solubles are the shepherds of minerals." They are also essential for progesterone and DHEA synthesis. Being outdoors all day long is one of the most potent ways I've found to increase progesterone. There's a Peat quote about that somewhere.

"The absence of bright light would create a progesterone deficiency, and would leave estrogen and prolactin unopposed."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/aging-eyes.shtml

This has definitely been true for me. It's amazing how something as simple as the absence of bright light can throw the entire organism out of order down to the way it uses minerals. A retinol deficiency is probably an equally important factor if not more important for natural progesterone production.

When there isn't a progesterone or fat soluble deficiency my body seems to use minerals correctly without much micromanaging. Simply eating a serving of beef results in major androgen production during the latter part of my sleeping cycle when enough progesterone and vitamin A is present. No complicated protocols or chelation necessary, but a little supplemental B6 and magnesium along with adequate A, D, and K seem to get the job done on top of any general pro-metabolic diet for me at least.

I did a lot of red light and sun bathing this summer and probably depleted a bit too much of my Vitamin A stores, so I'm in the process of replenishing again. Also setting up my winter red light rig with some 500W halogen worklights.

I don't believe in pyroluria anymore. In summary

 

[Giraffe]

Thank you, Brian. I'm going to to defrost some liver, and I will do red light later today. A little supplemental B6 and magnesium... :)

 

[YuraCZ]

Right now I'm on lower copper diet- max 2mg a day + some B complex, p5p B6 and 50mg of zinc nothing crazy. Basically normal regime for most people who eat clean food and supplement. But I feel really strong copper detox from the liver and when I speed up my metabolism with some activity when I sweat. all process speeds up and everything is more intense. After that I'm so exhausted. My poop is really dark right now (first weeks almost white) exactly like it supposed to be with copper secretion.. So will see what will happen next.

 

[EIRE24]

post 108065

post 64378

Hi Brian, I wonder if you could give us an update.

I've learned a lot since this post. My views are a lot different now. Basically now I think zinc and copper take care of themselves for the most part if you address more fundamental issues of basic cellular metabolism. Being replete in vitamin A with enough K and D is probably the most fundamental thing. Getting calcium and magnesium in the right places seems to strongly impact the fate of the trace minerals (zinc, copper, iron, selenium, etc), but magnesium itself doesn't seem to be absorbed, retained or utilized well without adequate progesterone.

So, that's why I think being replete in vitamin A with a balance of the other fat solubles is probably the first thing to address when trying to get copper and zinc working properly in the body. As Dr. Garrett Smith puts it, "The fat solubles are the shepherds of minerals." They are also essential for progesterone and DHEA synthesis. Being outdoors all day long is one of the most potent ways I've found to increase progesterone. There's a Peat quote about that somewhere.

"The absence of bright light would create a progesterone deficiency, and would leave estrogen and prolactin unopposed."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/aging-eyes.shtml

This has definitely been true for me. It's amazing how something as simple as the absence of bright light can throw the entire organism out of order down to the way it uses minerals. A retinol deficiency is probably an equally important factor if not more important for natural progesterone production.

When there isn't a progesterone or fat soluble deficiency my body seems to use minerals correctly without much micromanaging. Simply eating a serving of beef results in major androgen production during the latter part of my sleeping cycle when enough progesterone and vitamin A is present. No complicated protocols or chelation necessary, but a little supplemental B6 and magnesium along with adequate A, D, and K seem to get the job done on top of any general pro-metabolic diet for me at least.

I did a lot of red light and sun bathing this summer and probably depleted a bit too much of my Vitamin A stores, so I'm in the process of replenishing again. Also setting up my winter red light rig with some 500W halogen worklights.

I don't believe in pyroluria anymore. In summary

Brian, what does your daily diet look like?

 

[Brian]

post 108086 Thank you, Brian. I'm going to to defrost some liver, and I will do red light later today. A little supplemental B6 and magnesium... :)

Personally I don't get good results from liver, maybe because it has a bit too much copper to eat every day if metabolism is low. I'm not sure exactly why, but retinyl palmitate works better for me right now.

Red light is good stuff, but for progesterone synthesis and circadian rhythm I don't think there is any alternative for being outside early after sunrise all morning. The sun's bright blue light at 10,000+ lux entering the eye seems to be the mechanism. You can buy bright light devices to put on your desk in the morning for a few hours. I don't have one, but since I had such good results with morning sun this summer I'm considering buying one to use during the winter. Something like this.

Brian, what does your daily diet look like?

It's all over the place, usually low fat though. Fairly low copper, I don't eat liver or oyster. Other than getting supplemental Vitamin A, K, B6, zinc and magnesium I've focused much more on lifestyle and being outdoors as much as possible over the last year.

post 108098 Right now I'm on lower copper diet- max 2mg a day + some B complex, p5p B6 and 50mg of zinc nothing crazy. Basically normal regime for most people who eat clean food and supplement. But I feel really strong copper detox from the liver and when I speed up my metabolism with some activity when I sweat. all process speeds up and everything is more intense. After that I'm so exhausted. My poop is really dark right now (first weeks almost white) exactly like it supposed to be with copper secretion.. So will see what will happen next.

That's pretty similar to what I've been doing and experienced. I think supplemental A and K1/k2 has been key to the process for me though, without using liver as my main source for them to avoid excessive copper intake.

 

[Giraffe]

post 108149 Red light is good stuff, but for progesterone synthesis and circadian rhythm I don't think there is any alternative for being outside early after sunrise all morning. The sun's bright blue light at 10,000+ lux entering the eye seems to be the mechanism. You can buy bright light devices to put on your desk in the morning for a few hours. I don't have one, but since I had such good results with morning sun this summer I'm considering buying one to use during the winter. Something like this.

You're right. I will use the red light for its other benefits. It feels so good, but I use it too seldom. I have a 10,000 lux daylight lamp on my desk. Thanks for pointing out.

 

[YuraCZ]

That's pretty similar to what I've been doing and experienced. I think supplemental A and K1/k2 has been key to the process for me though, without using liver as my main source for them to avoid excessive copper intake.

I switched to chicken liver 2x200g a week. Chicken liver has only 0,5mg of copper per 100g in comparison with 29mg for 100g of beef liver.. Unfortunately I have freezer full of organic beef liver. It's suck. :)

 

[Amazoniac]

post 108149

post 108086 Thank you, Brian. I'm going to to defrost some liver, and I will do red light later today. A little supplemental B6 and magnesium... :)

Personally I don't get good results from liver, maybe because it has a bit too much copper to eat every day if metabolism is low. I'm not sure exactly why, but retinyl palmitate works better for me right now.

Red light is good stuff, but for progesterone synthesis and circadian rhythm I don't think there is any alternative for being outside early after sunrise all morning. The sun's bright blue light at 10,000+ lux entering the eye seems to be the mechanism. You can buy bright light devices to put on your desk in the morning for a few hours. I don't have one, but since I had such good results with morning sun this summer I'm considering buying one to use during the winter. Something like this.

Brian, what does your daily diet look like?

It's all over the place, usually low fat though. Fairly low copper, I don't eat liver or oyster. Other than getting supplemental Vitamin A, K, B6, zinc and magnesium I've focused much more on lifestyle and being outdoors as much as possible over the last year.

post 108098 Right now I'm on lower copper diet- max 2mg a day + some B complex, p5p B6 and 50mg of zinc nothing crazy. Basically normal regime for most people who eat clean food and supplement. But I feel really strong copper detox from the liver and when I speed up my metabolism with some activity when I sweat. all process speeds up and everything is more intense. After that I'm so exhausted. My poop is really dark right now (first weeks almost white) exactly like it supposed to be with copper secretion.. So will see what will happen next.

That's pretty similar to what I've been doing and experienced. I think supplemental A and K1/k2 has been key to the process for me though, without using liver as my main source for them to avoid excessive copper intake.

Brian, do you still use zinc picolinate? If not, why?

 

[Brian]

Brian, do you still use zinc picolinate? If not, why?

Nope, because I ran out. Lately I use zinc glycinate. I don't think the form of zinc matters much and more is not better in my experience. Just a single 30mg pill is plenty. I don't agree with the idea of trying to push out copper with high amounts of zinc. I think it's better to let your own hormones, fat solubles and magnesium manage trace minerals.

 

[paymanz]

do you have copper pipes used for your water system?

 

[Amazoniac]

post 108177

Brian, do you still use zinc picolinate? If not, why?

Nope, because I ran out. Lately I use zinc glycinate. I don't think the form of zinc matters much and more is not better in my experience. Just a single 30mg pill is plenty. I don't agree with the idea of trying to push out copper with high amounts of zinc. I think it's better to let your own hormones, fat solubles and magnesium manage trace minerals.

I don't know if you've seen it, but I started a thread wondering initially why Ray claims that zinc supplements can be problematic (after some time) due to the oxidation of other nutrients..

 

[YuraCZ]

Last 6 weeks I have really hard times. Exactly what that dude on the video says...
[bbvideo=560,315]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jelc3j1HOcs[/bbvideo]

 

[squanch]

post 108149 Personally I don't get good results from liver, maybe because it has a bit too much copper to eat every day if metabolism is low. I'm not sure exactly why, but retinyl palmitate works better for me right now.

post 108154 I switched to chicken liver 2x200g a week. Chicken liver has only 0,5mg of copper per 100g in comparison with 29mg for 100g of beef liver.. Unfortunately I have freezer full of organic beef liver. It's suck.

Do you guys have access to turkey liver?
Higher in vitamin a than beef liver (a lot higher than chicken liver) and very low in copper. The taste is also pretty good, definitely better than beef liver.

 

[Nicholas]

funny, i was just wondering about this on Sunday...lately i get such an uncomfortable reaction from eating liver. it's no longer something that seems to agree with me. the copper was what i figured....which i guess may suggest that my zinc is off.

 

[YuraCZ]

Do you guys have access to turkey liver?
Higher in vitamin a than beef liver (a lot higher than chicken liver) and very low in copper. The taste is also pretty good, definitely better than beef liver.

Yes.. More expensive, but good I agree.. But right now I'm trying low fat, low cholesterol diet because my metabolism is really ****88. Since I go through this copper detox( which is just lower copper diet max 2mg a day + 30mg of zinc and some organic sulfur) I'm freezing all the time. Digestion is really bad etc.. So I thing too much fat or cholesterol is not good at this point. Same with too much calcium.. RIght now I have Ideal fat intake I think. Around 40g a day - 20g saturated- 15 mono and 2,5 omega 3 and 2,5 omega 6. I hope this helps with inflammation as well..

 

[Derek]

post 110937

Do you guys have access to turkey liver?
Higher in vitamin a than beef liver (a lot higher than chicken liver) and very low in copper. The taste is also pretty good, definitely better than beef liver.

Yes.. More expensive, but good I agree.. But right now I'm trying low fat, low cholesterol diet because my metabolism is really f***ed. Since I go through this copper detox( which is just lower copper diet max 2mg a day + 30mg of zinc and some organic sulfur) I'm freezing all the time. Digestion is really bad etc.. So I thing too much fat or cholesterol is not good at this point. Same with too much calcium.. RIght now I have Ideal fat intake I think. Around 40g a day - 20g saturated- 15 mono and 2,5 omega 3 and 2,5 omega 6. I hope this helps with inflammation as well..

How long is this "copper detox" supposed to last? What type of zinc do you take?