Bag Breathing Vs Breath Holding?

[north]

Tried using a 3L bag and breathing in the bag about 10 times, then one time outside, and repeat. Sometimes less than 10 to balance oxygen/CO2 in the bag.
This made it a lot better than going to almost out of oxygen and take a break.

 

[mas]

Thanks for this thread. I am now seeing how important this CO2 is and bag breathe daily.

from Wikipedia:
Hypocapnia or hypocapnea is a state of reduced CO2 in blood. Hypocapnia usually results from deep or rapid breathing, known as hyperventilation. hyperventilation.

Effects
Even when marked, hypocapnia is normally well tolerated. However, hypocapnia causes cerebral vasoconstriction, leading to cerebral hypoxia and this can cause transient dizziness, visual disturbances, and anxiety. A low partial pressure of carbon dioxide in the blood also causes alkalosis (because CO2 is acidic in solution), leading to lowered plasma calcium ions and increased nerve and muscle excitability. This explains the other common symptoms of hyperventilation -pins and needles, muscle cramps and tetany in the extremities, especially hands and feet.
Because the brain stem regulates breathing by monitoring the level of blood CO2, hypocapnia can suppress breathing to the point of blackout from cerebral hypoxia.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcGasi3ejSM

Dr. Marvin Meadows did a study a few years ago to compare normals and people diagnosed "CFS/POTS (postural tachycardia) and he found the "CFS/POTS" people were hyperventilating (especially when standing up) and normals did not. There has been no further testing as to any more studies in this area and no practical clinical applications of using CO2 in treatment.

I am not waiting for mainstream medicine to come around either...

 

[Blossom]

That's so interesting mas. In one post there was mention of using CPAP for the exact same group which would cause a hyperventilating state. I think you are wise to proceed with your own approach (inspired by Peat) rather than wait around for a medical consensus!

 

[tara]

Re: A Suffeggestion

Personally I think bag breathing, breath holds and even CO2 or baking soda bathing would be the safer choice. Although it is exceedingly rare with healthy lungs people can over do it on CO2 especially if attempting to breath it directly from a 100% CO2 source such as a tank. I plan on getting a tank myself and I really appreciate the value of CO2 but I also respect the power of this substance to potentially cause problems in unnaturally high amounts. I'm the last one to be fear mongering but CO2 optimization should always be taken slow (IMO).

Blossom, do you see any risk of overdoing it with a CO2 bag? What kind of adverse reaction can you envisage? I'll try it out with someone else here the first time, just in case sth goes wrong (eg I fall asleep and can't get myself out of trouble). Thanks

 

[j.]

I think it's hard for things to go wrong breathing in a bag, because once it gets uncomfortable you just stop. I think you'll feel like you want to put your face and breathe somewhere else when you have enough CO2.

 

[Blossom]

Re: A Suffeggestion

Personally I think bag breathing, breath holds and even CO2 or baking soda bathing would be the safer choice. Although it is exceedingly rare with healthy lungs people can over do it on CO2 especially if attempting to breath it directly from a 100% CO2 source such as a tank. I plan on getting a tank myself and I really appreciate the value of CO2 but I also respect the power of this substance to potentially cause problems in unnaturally high amounts. I'm the last one to be fear mongering but CO2 optimization should always be taken slow (IMO).

Blossom, do you see any risk of overdoing it with a CO2 bag? What kind of adverse reaction can you envisage? I'll try it out with someone else here the first time, just in case sth goes wrong (eg I fall asleep and can't get myself out of trouble). Thanks

@tara-will you be rebreathing your own CO2 in a paper bag or are you filling a bag with CO2 from a tank? j. is absolutely correct about paying attention to your bodies feed back but you will be getting more CO2 in a shorter amount of time if it is coming from a 100% CO2 source rather than simply breathing your own CO2. I was under the impression that Peat had used CO2 as a body treatment by filling a plastic bag with CO2 and sealing the bag at his neck. I'm not aware of any recommendations to breathe CO2 from tank, but could be wrong. Rebreathing our own CO2 insures a gradual increase but breathing it from a tank of 100% CO2 seems like it might be somewhat risky like breathing 100% oxygen. We need both no doubt but at a certain point both can be toxic if applied too quickly and in too large of a concentration. I'm not one to discourage experimentation and we all have to do what best for our own context but CO2 does regulate our breathing so I think gradually increasing it is always the safest option and listening to our bodies feedback as j. pointed out. Good luck!

 

[tara]

Re: A Suffeggestion

@tara-will you be rebreathing your own CO2 in a paper bag or are you filling a bag with CO2 from a tank?

I'm not planning to breath extra CO2 more than minor incidental leakage. I plan to sit in it, possibly up to neck, in a plastic mattress bag. I'm hoping paying attention to how I feel with this method will prevent me going too far. What I most fear is that it could trigger migraine, but I've read that it helps relieve them for some people. Does this look risky to you?

 

[Blossom]

Not at all. Sounds great. I hope you will post and tell us about your experience!

 

[tara]

I am now seeing how important this CO2 is and bag breathe daily...

Rave about Buteyko/Normal Breathing
Hi Mas, Before finding RP's articles, I read a lot about chronic hidden hyperventilation on this Buteyko site - http://www.normalbreathing.com - have you come across this? there is a lot about the potential consequences, and quite a few references to related studies: I haven't found my way round his new website design, but I assume all the good info is still there. I just wouldn't take his dietary or exercise advice, because I think he knows a lot about how to reduce CO2 loses, but less about increasing metabolic rate and CO2 production (unless he's got more of this recently). Reading Artour Rakhimov's material about Buteyko and the Buteyko method really opened my eyes and got me interested in learnign more about physiology. And I learned some really useful techniques from him.
I am not taking a position on the relative benefits of bag breathing/Buteyko method/pranayama or any other controlled breathing technique. I'd just encourage people to pick one or more techniques that work for them, and go for it.

 

[Lin]

A warning here-- Bag breathing sounds okay. But getting into a bag and filling it with CO2 is another thing. I would be scared to do it. Especially if I were alone. You might pass out. This is how they cause chickens to become unconscious before slaughter.

Check this out: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Big- ... 047235.php

"With the new method, also used by Bell & Evans in Pennsylvania, the birds remain in the crates they were transported in and are moved through a chamber that is slowly filled with carbon dioxide, rendering them unconscious before slaughter."

 

[Lin]

Sorry, Tara, I didn't see the post about only putting the bag up to your neck.

 

[BingDing]

Just to clarify my post about breathing CO2, I take several breaths of air between hits of CO2. Like those chickens show, breathing pure CO2 only is dangerous. I started by just using tiny blasts of CO2 and gradually increased. As long as I breathe air in between hits I feel pretty safe.

I talked to a medical supply house about it and they don't sell to the public, only through a doctor. I wanted to find a demand regulator like a scuba regulator and meter small amounts of CO2 into the airstream, but couldn't find it. Maybe we'll find an enlightened respiratory therapist to help us out.

Tara, former forum member Peatrian was one of the most experienced (and helpful) members ever. She would stay in a bag up to her neck for hours, reading or watching TV. And there are spas in Europe with CO2 baths. So I think you'll be fine. Searching for that thread may be useful.

I tried it one time with my legs in a bag and it wasn't too successful. I was by myself and the CO2 mixed with the air in the bag, and I had a hard time sealing the top. Having someone to help would make a big difference (and I have to admit my effort was sorta lame).

Good luck!

 

[Blossom]

Just to clarify my post about breathing CO2, I take several breaths of air between hits of CO2. Like those chickens show, breathing pure CO2 only is dangerous. I started by just using tiny blasts of CO2 and gradually increased. As long as I breathe air in between hits I feel pretty safe.

I talked to a medical supply house about it and they don't sell to the public, only through a doctor. I wanted to find a demand regulator like a scuba regulator and meter small amounts of CO2 into the airstream, but couldn't find it. Maybe we'll find an enlightened respiratory therapist to help us out.


Tara, former forum member Peatrian was one of the most experienced (and helpful) members ever. She would stay in a bag up to her neck for hours, reading or watching TV. And there are spas in Europe with CO2 baths. So I think you'll be fine. Searching for that thread may be useful.

I tried it one time with my legs in a bag and it wasn't too successful. I was by myself and the CO2 mixed with the air in the bag, and I had a hard time sealing the top. Having someone to help would make a big difference (and I have to admit my effort was sorta lame).

Good luck!

You can purchase CO2 flowmeter regulators on eBay.

 

[bradley]

I have a tank and regulator, but can't figure out a reliable/measured way to make a 5%-7% greater mixture with air.

 

[Blossom]

I have a tank and regulator, but can't figure out a reliable/measured way to make a 5%-7% greater mixture with air.

Some regulators have flowmeters and some do not. The flowmeter attachment allows for adjusting the CO2 flow between 1-25 liters typically. It is a cylindrical piece that is numbered and has a sort of dial on the side that moves a ball inside the cylinder to the desired flow. 1 liter of flow would be equivalent to 3-4% CO2. You can Google flowmeters to see if your regulator has this attachment.

 

[BingDing]

I have a tank and regulator, but can't figure out a reliable/measured way to make a 5%-7% greater mixture with air.

Man, but I know what you mean. In the CO2 video Ray talks about Navy divers breathing carbogen for hours. At least one version of carbogen is 20% CO2 and 80% pure O2. Way too radical for us, of course, but it brings to mind the idea of enhancing air with CO2 in the tank; then we could just breathe it straight from the tank and not asphyxiate ourselves.

I never asked the local gas company if they would do it, someone has to figure out just what 5% CO2 means and how to concoct such a mixture. The counter guy at a welding supply shop isn't going to know. Meh.

Blossom, a flowmeter would be a piece of the puzzle, thanks. But we still need a system. You seem to be familiar with cannulas and those O2 systems, can you explain how it works?

Well, now that I think about it I can guess how it works. The tank of gas is connected to the flow meter and then to the nose piece. As you breathe through the nose a metered amount of supplemental gas is inhaled with air. We just have to know what flow rate approximates 5-7%.

Shoot, hiding in a closet and bag breathing is sounding pretty attractive, LOL.

 

[Blossom]

1 liter equals 3-4% CO2. It's going to vary depending on the rate and depth of breathing. Each liter above that is an additional 3-4%. I believe they make CO2/O2 mix tanks also. If you have a 100% CO2 tank I think 1 liter is going to be the safest bet. If it is on 2 liters you could possibly go over the 5-7% range.

 

[co2islife]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum but I've been following Ray Peat's work for a couple of years now.

Anyway just letting you know I've developed a device that allows you to control the amount of co2 your breath in to the hundredths place. You control it with your smart phone. I'm just developing one for someone right now. You can wear the mask while meditating, reading, watching tv, etc...

I'll post some pictures at some point. I've been working on it for a year and a half now and am just finishing completing it. So I can't say what benefits I've received from it. However I know Ray Peat has said in an article that the main problem of hypothyroidism is the lack of co2 produced.

Will let you know all know how it goes.

Steve

 

[charlie]

co2islife,

That masks sounds so awesome! Looking forward to seeing it.

 

[Blossom]

I have a tank and regulator, but can't figure out a reliable/measured way to make a 5%-7% greater mixture with air.

Man, but I know what you mean. In the CO2 video Ray talks about Navy divers breathing carbogen for hours. At least one version of carbogen is 20% CO2 and 80% pure O2. Way too radical for us, of course, but it brings to mind the idea of enhancing air with CO2 in the tank; then we could just breathe it straight from the tank and not asphyxiate ourselves.

I never asked the local gas company if they would do it, someone has to figure out just what 5% CO2 means and how to concoct such a mixture. The counter guy at a welding supply shop isn't going to know. Meh.

Blossom, a flowmeter would be a piece of the puzzle, thanks. But we still need a system. You seem to be familiar with cannulas and those O2 systems, can you explain how it works?

Well, now that I think about it I can guess how it works. The tank of gas is connected to the flow meter and then to the nose piece. As you breathe through the nose a metered amount of supplemental gas is inhaled with air. We just have to know what flow rate approximates 5-7%.

Shoot, hiding in a closet and bag breathing is sounding pretty attractive, LOL.

The CO2 that worked for the divers was higher because the were at a very low altitude. It can be thought of as exactly the opposite of the ideal high altitude scenario where our body retains CO2. That's just how I make sense of it. Atmospheric pressure plays a huge role in the pressure of the gasses in our bodies. I don't think I would try to achieve a inspired CO2 level equivalent to what a scuba diver could handle, when under water, while on land. It seems like comparing apples and oranges.