Bag Breathing Helps Flu; Ventilators And Oxygen Probably Kill

SOMO

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If no one survived the ventilation I'd like to believe that doctors are smart enough to realize that something was up.

This link says that 50% on the ventilator die.
One estimate suggests 3% of all COVID-19 pts require intubation, with about a 50% survival chance on the ventilator (Meng, et. al)
Coronavirus Clinical Collaboration

This is the study the link references:
Intubation and Ventilation amid the COVID-19 Outbreak:Wuhan’s Experience | Anesthesiology | ASA Publications

I'm not sure where in the study they got the 50% figure, because I haven't read it all, but there's some interesting information in there.
 
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I disagree with ray slightly on oxygen, this is why:

"I recently got a probable case of covid and had to go to the Er. They gave me some oxygen in the ambo , briefly, bc I turned out not to he hypoxic although the shortness of breath, delirium, tachycardia and hypertension were really severe. But what interesting to me is that oxygen made me feel better even though my sats were normal. They took me off oxygen once in the ER and I felt worse and reacted to the moldy room. I think that what ray peat overlooks is that even if oxygen can be in theory more toxic than air with higher co2 content, that so much air in buildings is contaminated by mold and vocs that pure oxygen might be better than room air, even if it has toxicity problems. I think ray underrates biotoxins and general issues with toxic air and overrated nutrition, in terms of illness.

But I'd like to see hospitals start using carbogen more and maybe use hydrogen, oxygen mixtures which have been shown to help stroke recovery (hydrogen is a strong antioxidant)"
 
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i have also inhaled either pure co2 or carbogen many times and enjoy it but i still think any pure air can be better than air in most buildings
 

SOMO

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i have also inhaled either pure co2 or carbogen many times and enjoy it but i still think any pure air can be better than air in most buildings

This is anecdotal and not scientific, but whenever I feel nauseous or have an anxiety attack, I always open the windows (even if it's cold) for FRESH AIR and I feel better.

Besides giving off O2, trees and plants also give off essential oils (terpenes and other compounds) which reduce anxiety and have some subtle effects on health and the nervous system.
 

charlie

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Besides giving off O2, trees and plants also give off essential oils (terpenes and other compounds) which reduce anxiety and have some subtle effects on health and the nervous system.
Fascinating, never considered the angle of essential oils being emitted having such profound effects.
 

RWilly

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Fascinating, never considered the angle of essential oils being emitted having such profound effects.

I would imaging that deeply breathing in oregano oil or other essential oil with anti-viral properties might help fight this virus.
 

SOMO

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There are a substantial number of clinical trials concerning the efficacy of mask CPAP that can be used to defend the position that this therapy ought be developed into what is considered routine and expected treatment of acute respiratory insufficiency. The literature is particularly strong for its use in COPD and pulmonary edema. Successful use has also been reported with asthma, PCP pneumonia, neuromuscular weakness, post-operative respiratory distress, and traumatic lung contusions. The use of NIVS in acute respiratory failure is associated with prompt improvement in acid-base balance as determined by arterial blood gases obtained within the first few hours. Any patient with acute respiratory distress significant enough to result in more than mild accessory muscle use should be considered for this technique. Off-loading the respiratory muscles early in the presentation of acute respiratory failure, and supporting respiration while waiting for medical therapy (bronchodilators, steroids, antibiotics, diuretics, or nitrates) to have their effects, can potentially result in more rapid improvement and a lower incidence of intubation. All Emergency Departments should have rapid access to at least one mode of Non-invasive Ventilatory Support. If you do not have access to a BiPAP machine, mask ventilation can be easily accomplished using a standard ventilator by simply substituting a facemask for an endotracheal tube as the interface between patient and ventilator. However, for optimal performance, a later generation ventilator is required ( i.e., Puritan Bennett 7200, Siemans 900c, Siemans 300 ).

In summary, the use of NIVS should be considered early in the course of moderately severe acute respiratory failure. It is clear that use of NIVS is well tolerated and is associated with improved gas exchange and avoidance of intubation in appropriately selected patients with acute respiratory failure. It is simple and convenient to use, and has the potential to decrease both morbidity and costs when compared to standard invasive mechanical ventilation. Any patient with significant accessory muscle use, hypoxia, or respiratory acidosis could potentially benefit from its use. If you do not yet have easy access to CPAP or BiPAP in your Emergency Department, I would encourage to obtain it.
Preventing intubation in acute respiratory failure: Use of CPAP and BiPAP

It's mind-boggling that you can have an entire FAQ/medical recommendations for pulmonary/breathing issues and not once mention CO2...
 

RWilly

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I'm seeing news reports this morning that China's use of face masks (just the surgical kind), may have helped control the infection a little more. I wonder if the lower death rate (if we believe their numbers) may in part have had to do with a mask being similar to bag breathing.
 

md_a

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It's a scenario straight out of Gray's Anatomy -- a paramedic or doctor plops a mask over the face of a person struggling to breathe and begins dispensing pure oxygen.
Yet growing research suggests that inhaling straight oxygen can actually harm the brain. For the first time, a new UCLA brain-imaging study reveals why. Published in the May 22 edition of Public Library of Science (PLoS) Medicine, the findings fly in the face of national guidelines for medical practice and recommend a new approach adding carbon dioxide to the gas mix to preserve brain function in patients.

"For decades, the medical community has championed 100 percent oxygen as the gold standard for resuscitation. But no one has reported what happens inside our brains when we inhale pure oxygen," explained Ronald Harper, distinguished professor of neurobiology at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. "What we discovered adds to a compelling body of evidence for modifying a widely practiced standard of care in the United States."

Harper's team used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to capture detailed pictures of what occurs inside the human brain during two different breathing scenarios. The technique detects subtle increases in blood flow triggered by the activation of different parts of the brain, causing these regions to glow or "light up" on the color scan.

The researchers scanned the brains of 14 healthy children, ages 8 -- 15, as they inhaled 100 percent oxygen through a mouthpiece, and monitored their breathing and heart rates. After waiting eight minutes for the youngsters' breathing to return to normal, the team added 5 percent carbon dioxide to the gas mixture and repeated the scan.

A comparison of the two scans revealed dramatic differences.

"When the children inhaled pure oxygen, their breathing quickened, resulting in the rapid exhalation of carbon dioxide from their bodies," said coauthor Paul Macey, associate researcher in neurobiology. "The drop in carbon dioxide narrowed their blood vessels, preventing oxygen from reaching tissue in the brain and heart."

That's when something surprising happened on the MRI scan.

Three brain structures suddenly lit up: the hippocampus, which helps control blood pressure; the cingulate cortex, which regulates pain perception and blood pressure; and the insula, which monitors physical and emotional stress.

All this activity awakened the hypothalamus, which regulates heart rate and hormonal outflow. Activation of the hypothalamus triggered a cascade of harmful reactions and released chemicals that can injure the brain and heart.

"Several brain areas responded to 100 percent oxygen by kicking the hypothalamus into overdrive," explained Harper. "The hypothalamus overreacted by dumping a massive flood of hormones and neurotransmitters into the bloodstream. These chemicals interfere with the heart's ability to pump blood and deliver oxygen -- the opposite effect you want when you're trying to resuscitate someone."

When the children inhaled the carbon dioxide-oxygen mix, the hypothalamus' hyperactivity vanished from the MRI scan.

"Adding carbon dioxide to the oxygen relaxed the blood vessels, allowed oxygen to reach the heart and brain, calmed the hypothalamus and slowed the release of dangerous chemicals," said Macey.
Imaging Study Reveals How Pure Oxygen Harms The Brain
 

RWilly

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Wow, not good.
What about "banana bags"? I'd think they are widely available to treat substance abuse and alcoholic patients coming in. Can a person ask for a "banana bag" if they get admitted?
Yes, we have them. A person could definitely request one.

Can you tell us more about the banana bag and how that might help? Will that affect CO2?
 

Motif

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Are there studies that i can send friends that show the effects of bagbreathing?
 

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