Bag Breathing Helps Flu; Ventilators And Oxygen Probably Kill

[Blossom]

Seems like some of you are confusing correlation with causation. Simply because someone receives a treatment and ends up dead does not mean that treatment is adding to the risk of death. What this tells us is that we need to know more about the non-survivors - e.g. did they receive a treatment too late? Are there other unobserved variables (yes, most likely) that influence the outcomes? No researcher with self-respect would derive strong conclusions from univariate analyses. The study suffers from endogeneity issues and is only a teaser - not a study we should base much of anything on.

100%

All sorts of oxygen therapy were predictive for bad outcome. Data taken from table 2.

View attachment 17220

Yes, and it’s the sickest people of all that need oxygen and other interventions to this extent. Without it they may quite possibly either die or live in a persistent vegetative state and have anoxic injury. Either way it doesn’t look good but at least there are people out there genuinely trying to help. If people don’t want to run the risk of getting these treatments they should definitely not go to the hospital because that’s the best we have to offer at this time.

 

[ecstatichamster]

increasing CO2 would be the best treatment for people with ARDS. I'm using bag breathing constantly and without it I don't know if I could avoid going to the hospital.

 

[Beastmode]

I saw this posted on a FB Peat page and sent it to him for input:

“ We have no idea how many people are infected without sx. There is no way to say 85%
It doesn't look like most people who are sick are old. Corey has all 40-60yos intubated in the ICU
It is IMPOSSIBLE to give someone pure oxygen. No one gets oxygen unless there is pulse oximetry is low (under 95%). If above they are generally discharged. People are at first given nasal oxygen which can only deliver up to 28% oxygen (we normally breath 21%). Even putting on a mask they can only deliver up to 40% because higher flow oxygen spreads the virus to health care workers. The majority of people on ventilators are given 40% oxygen. The goal is always to get patients to breath the lowest % of oxygen they can tolerate cause it is well known to the health care community that oxygen free radicals are bad for the lung, carbon dioxide level is tightly regulated by the body to keep the ph at 7.40. If Ph changes too much the heart stops. This is what is behind co2 levels.”

Ray:
40% and 60% O2 are often used, and the problem is that no CO2 is added; even running the ventilator a little too fast with plain air will provide a harmful amount of O2, decreasing CO2. That statement reflects what too many doctors believe.

So many unnecessary people are getting ****88 before the hospital (how they eat, etc) then in the hospital (i.e- ventilators.)

 

[Giraffe]

Seems like some of you are confusing correlation with causation. Simply because someone receives a treatment and ends up dead does not mean that treatment is adding to the risk of death. What this tells us is that we need to know more about the non-survivors - e.g. did they receive a treatment too late? Are there other unobserved variables (yes, most likely) that influence the outcomes? No researcher with self-respect would derive strong conclusions from univariate analyses. The study suffers from endogeneity issues and is only a teaser - not a study we should base much of anything on.

What concerns me is the current fearmongering: "TRIAGE!!! TRIAGE!!! Doctor's in Italy have to decide which patients can get ventilation, because they are running out of ventilators! We don't want this in our country! Let's rush and buy more ventilators!" Even in Germany - a country with lots of ICU-beds per capita - the head of German CDC urges the hospitals to at least double their number of ventilators.

Let's face it: The prognosis is bad if you suffer from ARDS and need ventilation. Mechanical ventilation in ICU is a nightmare, invasive mechanical ventilation even more so. The mortality is high, and for many of those who survive, the quality of life is severely and permanently decreased. The risk that the patient can never be weaned off mechanical ventilation is high. Many survivors end up in care homes. According to one study I saw more than 70% of the survivors said that if they had known what to expect they would have opted for palliative care. "Will the patient benefit from the treatment?" is something doctors always have to predict. "How was he doing before he got the pneumonia?" the relatives get asked. (If he was doing very bad before, expect it to be even worse.)

Edit to add: It is mostly very sickly people with chronic diseases who end up there needing ventilation.

Hospitals need to operate economically. Any wish to do what is best for the patient is in conflict with the need to generate revenues and cut costs. So they do what is paid well, and discharge the patient fast. Good nursing care is what the patients need most, but it is not reimbursed adequately. But hey, we have a few ventilators lying idle ...

 

[ecstatichamster]

What concerns me is the current fearmongering: "TRIAGE!!! TRIAGE!!! Doctor's in Italy have to decide which patients can get ventilation, because they are running out of ventilators! We don't want this in our country! Let's rush and buy more ventilators!" Even in Germany - a country with lots of ICU-beds per capita - the head of German CDC urges the hospitals to at least double their number of ventilators.

Let's face it: The prognosis is bad if you suffer from ARDS and need ventilation. Mechanical ventilation in ICU is a nightmare, invasive mechanical ventilation even more so. The mortality is high, and for many of those who survive, the quality of life is severely and permanently decreased. The risk that the patient can never be weaned off mechanical ventilation is high. Many survivors end up in care homes. According to one study I saw more than 70% of the survivors said that if they had known what to expect they would have opted for palliative care. "Will the patient benefit from the treatment?" is something doctors always have to predict. "How was he doing before he got the pneumonia?" the relatives get asked. (If he was doing very bad before, expect it to be even worse.)

Edit to add: It is mostly very sickly people with chronic diseases who end up there needing ventilation.

Hospitals need to operate economically. Any wish to do what is best for the patient is in conflict with the need to generate revenues and cut costs. So they do what is paid well, and discharge the patient fast. Good nursing care is what the patients need most, but it is not reimbursed adequately. But hey, we have a few ventilators lying idle ...

omg. I didn’t know that.

 

[haidut]

They should avoid going to the hospital if at all possible.

All the things we’ve talked about should be tried including Losartan and antihistamine.

...or if they end up in the hospital somehow demand (or ask their relatives to demand) to be put on Carbogen instead of oxygen. If Carbogen is not available then at least ask to be hooked to a "banana bag" IV drip. It has a decent amount of thiamien and that alone will lower lactic acid, raise CO2 and reduce inflammation.
@nad

Hey, @Blossom, quick question if I may please. How common is for Carbogen to be used in hospitals? Is it only if the patient requests it, or only if the doctor orders it? Or is it usually not available at all and has to be brought in as a custom order?

 

[Blossom]

...or if they end up in the hospital somehow demand (or ask their relatives to demand) to be put on Carbogen instead of oxygen. If Carbogen is not available then at least ask to be hooked to a "banana bag" IV drip. It has a decent amount of thiamien and that alone will lower lactic acid, raise CO2 and reduce inflammation.
@nad

Hey, @Blossom, quick question if I may please. How common is for Carbogen to be used in hospitals? Is it only if the patient requests it, or only if the doctor orders it? Or is it usually not available at all and has to be brought in as a custom order?

Sadly I have never seen it once in over 20 years. I doubt most staff would even know what it is.

 

[haidut]

Hospitals need to operate economically. Any wish to do what is best for the patient is in conflict with the need to generate revenues and cut costs. So they do what is paid well, and discharge the patient fast. Good nursing care is what the patients need most, but it is not reimbursed adequately. But hey, we have a few ventilators lying idle ...

You just hit the nail on the head. The whole quarantine thing is so overhyped out of fear of exposing this one sad truth. Most hospitals are not designed to handle a large number of actual critical patients. Over the last 20-30 years hospitals evolved into institutions that do mostly elective procedures that can be controlled, projected, managed...and massively milked for money. It is not a coincidence transplantation wards are the most beloved by hospital mgmt and every hospital now wants one. There is of course the ER but it has a limited number of units and if more patients arrive than the ER can handle they are re-routed to other hospitals. Hospitals hate pandemics because most of the time they deal with very sick (so a lot of effort/cost into treatment) but elderly and/or incapacitated people who are not well-off financially and rely on things like Medicaid/Medicare. Hospitals absolutely hate those insurance plans because they are powerful and can negotiate hospital bills down to about 10% of what they would usually be if paid by a private insurance.
So, basically, hospitals' worst case scenario is the current pandemic - a large stream of patients the hospital cannot reject/project/manage, all of whom need urgent/expensive/extensive care, and are likely to pay a fraction for that care compared to privately insured patients. Some will not pay anything since they are homeless/broke/etc.
Sounds about right @Blossom?

 

[haidut]

Sadly I have never seen it once in over 20 years. I doubt most staff would even know what it is.

Wow, not good.
What about "banana bags"? I'd think they are widely available to treat substance abuse and alcoholic patients coming in. Can a person ask for a "banana bag" if they get admitted?

 

[Blossom]

Wow, not good.
What about "banana bags"? I'd think they are widely available to treat substance abuse and alcoholic patients coming in. Can a person ask for a "banana bag" if they get admitted?

Yes, we have them. A person could definitely request one.

 

[David PS]

A friend just sent a pdf of Johns Hopkins COVID-19 Clinician Pocket Reference Guide V1.3. It show their basic guidelines.

 

[Lee Simeon]

You just hit the nail on the head. The whole thing is so overhyped out of fear of exposing this one sad truth. Most hospitals are not designed to handle a large number of actual critical patients. Over the last 20-30 years hospitals evolved into institutions that do mostly elective procedures that can be controlled, projected, managed...and massively milked for money. It is not a coincidence transplantation wards are the most beloved by hospital mgmt and every hospital now wants one. There is of course the ER but it has a limited number of units and if more patients arrive than the ER can handle they are re-routed to other hospitals. Hospitals hate pandemics because most of the time they deal with very sick (so a lot of effort/cost into treatment) but elderly and/or incapacitated people who are not well-off financially and rely on things like Medicaid/Medicare. Hospitals absolutely hate those insurance plans because they are powerful and can negotiate hospital bills down to about 10% of what they would usually be if paid by a private insurance.
So, basically, hospitals' worst case scenario is the current pandemic - a large stream of patients the hospital cannot reject/project/manage, all of whom need urgent/expensive/extensive care, and are likely to pay a fraction for that care compared to privately insured patients. Some will not pay anything since they are homeless/broke/etc.
Sounds about right @Blossom?

What does the best healthcare system look like to you Georgi?

 

[haidut]

What does the best healthcare system look like to you Georgi?

Doubt there is a "best" one but the current one is hardly a "healthcare" system. Basically, the only portions of medicine that currently works and provides real value are ER, surgery (mostly emergency but also some elective), infectious disease treatment, and maybe maternity/delivery. Though the last one is an embarrassment over the last say 20 years as the mother/child mortality rates in Western countries are much higher compared to a developing country like say Cuba. But let's say for the moment it is useful.
So, what I'd so is redirect all resources spent privately and by the govt on health care towards those 4 areas. Everything else gets drastically reduced or eliminated and the hospital can have a "buffer" fund (from the savings) to quickly scale up activity if pandemics hit. The trillions of dollars saved by removing utterly useless and harmful medical "services" can go towards improving the food supply, and maybe educate people on things they can do themselves to limit risk of ending up in the hospital.
Another beneficial thing that can be done is take all the drugs currently approved by FDA and mandate that the only ones insurances will cover are so-called "disease modifying" drugs. The others stay approved but if somebody wants to sit around and just "manage their symptoms" as most commercials these days say then they have to pay out of pocket. You'd be surprised how quickly true cures will start appearing.
Of course, this is all a pipe dream. Healthcare is almost 18% of the US GDP and employs a massive amount of people, not to mention the peripheral services/industries that depend on that industry. Implementing what I suggested would mean a ton of people unemployed and potentially having to switch professions completely. It is more likely aspirin to get approved as cancer treatment that for what I mentioned above to happen. "Healthcare" over the last 100 years, has always been about employment/profit and never about outcomes.
The closest to a real hospital would be military hospitals operating close to the front lines where saving lives and making sure soldiers recuperate quickly so they can go into battle again is the only thing that matters, so most resources are dedicated to that goal. No swanky offices as in say Mayo Clinic where some drooling psychopathic erudite lectures you on the latest obscure gene therapy that would "cure everything", yet can't do squat for your relative's cancer, dementia, CVD, etc.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yes it’s a big deal and impeccable oral care and keeping the head of the bed elevated at least 30 degrees can decrease it significantly.

What do you mean by impeccable oral care and its relationship to respiratory issues?
It's my dream to get me one of those tempur-pedic beds to be able to sleep elevated.

 

[mrchibbs]

Over the past couple of years I've been on the brink of passing out from not being able to breathe, with what I know now I truly believe I'd be dead if I'd chosen to take an ambulance to the hospital.

I spent weeks in an oxygen tent as 2 year old, and was asthmatic troughout my youth, but it came back with a vengeance in my mid20s. The last few years have been hell.

I haven't gone full Buteyko, but I'm learning more and more about carbon dioxide, and hopefully I'd be able to request a 95:5 oxygen to co2 mixture if I absolutely had to go to the ER.

I think I got COVID about a week ago, and I got through it with Georgi's recommendation, and the help of this forum. Pepcid+Benadryl were really helpful. I also think the simplest things like zinc, copper and magnesium are often forgotten when it comes to acute respiratory issues and since I haven't been able to eat oysters in a long time, I took some zinc gluconate powder and it was profoundly soothing to my lungs as well.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thanks @mrchibbs

I ordered some zinc.

 

[SOMO]

I would be in bad shape without bag breathing. It is a life saver. I remember talking to my moms doctor about CO2. Got nowhere. She died a few days later on oxygen.

I sympathize with you, I had a similar experience.

I was in the hospital as my father was having a heart attack and I was screaming at the staff to try giving him aspirin lol. They said "that won't work." He died.

 

[mrchibbs]

I sympathize with you, I had a similar experience.

I was in the hospital as my father was having a heart attack and I was screaming at the staff to try giving him aspirin lol. They said "that won't work." He died.

Stories like that break my heart. My grandpa (who was as important to me as my dad) died at 76, of supposedly cancer, but in reality his cancer had been stagnant for months, so much so that he was going to get discharged, and it wasn't at all life threatening. He was in phenomenal health otherwise, still had baby soft skin, strong heart beat, everything else, and for some reason he fell and knocked his head and they decided he was dying of cancer anyway so they were not going to look at the injury, they just gave him morphine for 10 days straight and he died. One more bed available.

 

[mrchibbs]

Thanks @mrchibbs

I ordered some zinc.

Great, by the time you get it your health crisis will probably be over, but the more I read, it seems to be implicated in lots of respiratory problems.
Hopefully you got zinc gluconate (least likely to be contaminated) and just the powder without excipients. Mixed in applesauce I find it's really easy to take and apparently apples have something in them which help absorb the zinc. (I read that somewhere)

 

[Jam]

Great, by the time you get it your health crisis will probably be over, but the more I read, it seems to be implicated in lots of respiratory problems.
Hopefully you got zinc gluconate (least likely to be contaminated) and just the powder without excipients. Mixed in applesauce I find it's really easy to take and apparently apples have something in them which help absorb the zinc. (I read that somewhere)

Quercetin?