Babies Experience Life As An LSD Trip, As A Result Of Their High Metabolism

Peatogenic

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Thats interesting, I never experienced depersonalization but in some spiritual circles it seems to be considered the flip side of achieving oneness with reality as a result of ego dissolution, as if ego dissolution had the potential to make you either completely detatch from reality, or to immerse yourself in it more fully than ever. I think this can be because for some people, their consciousness interprets ego dissolution as the ultimate threat (that of dying), and for some it will be interpreted as the ultimate liberation, allowing them to move beyond the fear of ego death and fully and fearlessly engage with life.

The article by Peat linked in the OP is a really great piece on the link between physiology and consciousness. Serotonin is the main regulator of sensory gating (ie inhibiting/closing the doors of perception) and also the main hormone involved in defensive and harm/threat avoiding behaviors. It then implies that there is a direct link between psychological trauma or the extent to which a person is fearful of his environment - and the richness/vividness of his lived experience. The more anxious, fearful and harm-avoidant an individual is, the more his brain will filter out sensory perceptions and essentially shut down his consciousness, narrowly focusing only on that which is deemed necessary for survival.

The fact that depersonalization is strongly linked with intense psychological trauma seems to bear this out - when you are so traumatized that existence itself becomes threatening, your brain has no choice but to shut off its consciousness to such an extent that your whole lived experience seems fake, unreal and drained of all vividness, to prevent your psyche from becoming overwhelmed.

Serotonin: Effects in disease, aging and inflammation
"Some recent reviews have discussed the evidence supporting the serotonin system as primarily inhibitory and protective (Anne Frederickson, 1998, Neil Goodman, 2002). Goodman describes the serotonergic system as one of our "diffuse neuroregulatory systems," and suggests that drugs such as LSD weaken its inhibitory, filtering effect. (Jacobs, 1983, 1987: by changes in the effects of serotonin in the brain, produced by things that affect its synthesis, release, catabolism, or receptor action.) LSD depresses the rate of firing of serotonergic nerves in the raphe nuclei (Trulson and Jacobs, 1979) causing arousal similar to stimulation of the reticular formation, as if by facilitating sensory input into the reticular formation (Bowman and Rand, 1980)."

"...In this newer view, high serotonin production causes behavioral inhibition and harm avoidance, which are traits of the authoritarian personality, while anti-authorians tend to have "novelty seeking" personalities, with high dopamine and low serotonin functions."

"For example, there have been suggestions that early life isolation of an animal can affect its serotonergic activity and increase its anxiety, aggression, or susceptibility to stress (Malick and Barnett, 1976, Malick, 1979, dos Santos, et al, 2010), and these effects are associated with increased risk of becoming depressed, and developing organic problems. Animals kept in darkness (or with blurring lenses) become nearsighted, as the eyeball grows longer under the influence of increased serotonin, and the eyes are protected against myopia by serotonin antagonists (George, et al., 2005). The incidence of myopia is increasing, at least in countries with industrialized economies, and is more common in females."

"The increase of inhibitory serotonin with stress and depression is probably biologically related to the role of serotonin in hibernation, which is an extreme example of "harm avoidance" by withdrawal. A diet high in polyunsaturated fat increases the tendency to go into hibernation, probably by increasing the brain's uptake of tryptophan. When this is combined with an increasingly cold environment, the form of MAO that removes serotonin decreases its activity, while the form that removes norepinephrine increases its activity. The metabolite of serotonin, 5-HIAA, decreases, as the effect of serotonin increases."

"Researchers in Brasil have suggested that the serotonergic system facilitates conditioned fear, while inhibiting the fight or flight reaction, and that this can protectively limit the stress response (Graeff, et al., 1996). "5HT systems reduce the impact of impending or actual aversive events. Anticipation of an aversive event is associated with anxiety and this motivates avoidance behaviour" (Deakin, 1990). In a stressful situation, the serotonergic nerves can prevent ulcers. In other contexts, though, increased serotonin can cause ulcers.

The protective, defensive reactions involving serotonin's blocking of certain types of reaction to ordinary stresses, are similar to the effects of serotonin in hibernation and in Alzheimer's disease (Mamelak, 1997; Heininger, 2000; Perry, et al., 2002). In those extreme conditions, serotonin reduces energy expenditure, eliminating all brain functions except those needed for simple survival. These parallels suggest that improving energy production, for example by providing ketones as an alternative energy source, while reducing the stress hormones, might be able to replace the defensive reactions with restorative adaptive nerve processes, preventing or reversing Alzheimer's disease."
 

Hugh Johnson

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I'm not a super big brain dude like you guys, but what I have noticed in my spiritual/healing practice is that it feels like waking up repeatedly. Things that were out of awareness and usually controlling aspects of my life are revealed and healed. And the experience of the world becomes more vivid, and I see more possibilities.
 

Waynish

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Anyone ever discuss DMT on here ? It’s the king of psychedelics, but also a tryptamine (serotonin structure)..... What’s up with the entities and elves ?

It really isn't. It is ***t. Very melatonin producing & anti-metabolic, in my experience. And everyone else's experience if you watch what they say closely. Hard to even remember the experience because you're not in your body. It's not good stuff.
 

Collden

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I'm not a super big brain dude like you guys, but what I have noticed in my spiritual/healing practice is that it feels like waking up repeatedly. Things that were out of awareness and usually controlling aspects of my life are revealed and healed. And the experience of the world becomes more vivid, and I see more possibilities.
How do you meditate, like type, frequency, duration? I've gone off meditation for a while but thinking that maybe I should start again with short, regular sessions.

For a time after I had that strong mushroom trip during which I saw the world in a different way I become totally obsessed with trying to reach that state permanently with meditation, Ayahuasca ceremonies and other hippy stuff. It could be I just never went deep enough but I eventually stopped doing these spiritual practices because I wasn't sure that they were actually helping me take my life in the right direction, felt like I rather became more aimless, confused and passive the more I did them.

Its the same with spiritual practices as with psychotherapy - they are touted as ways to heal trauma and change your deeply ingrained thought patterns for the better - but I'm not sure that it actually works out like that for most people that try them, it seems in many cases just to make people more neurotic and obsessed with inwardly focusing on their flaws rather than outwardly focusing on living their lives. Maybe there are subtle aspects of how you perform meditation that makes the difference for whether it will be beneficial or not, but I haven't figured out what that is.

But still interesting to think about how differently the world can be experienced by different people and that maybe it would be possible to dramatically alter your consciousness if you found the right practice.
 
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Collden

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It really isn't. It is ***t. Very melatonin producing & anti-metabolic, in my experience. And everyone else's experience if you watch what they say closely. Hard to even remember the experience because you're not in your body. It's not good stuff.
Yes my impression having been to a few Ayahuasca ceremonies is that most people who have done it a lot appear to be hypometabolic and have somewhat depressive/passive personalities. I get the same impression from most people who are heavily into meditation so I'm not really sure if these spiritual/introspective practices are always helpful and how the negative effects can be avoided.
 

Waynish

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Yes my impression having been to a few Ayahuasca ceremonies is that most people who have done it a lot appear to be hypometabolic and have somewhat depressive/passive personalities. I get the same impression from most people who are heavily into meditation so I'm not really sure if these spiritual/introspective practices are always helpful and how the negative effects can be avoided.

True. The meditation practices can amplify everything, so those modern spiritual people who are into "self acceptance" and against refining themselves will suffer. I've not met any who can meditate properly anyway - so they shouldn't be trying to amplify garbage until they have improved their character more first.
 

LUH 3417

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True. The meditation practices can amplify everything, so those modern spiritual people who are into "self acceptance" and against refining themselves will suffer. I've not met any who can meditate properly anyway - so they shouldn't be trying to amplify garbage until they have improved their character more first.
What do you mean by refining oneself
 

Hugh Johnson

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How do you meditate, like type, frequency, duration? I've gone off meditation for a while but thinking that maybe I should start again with short, regular sessions.

For a time after I had that strong mushroom trip during which I saw the world in a different way I become totally obsessed with trying to reach that state permanently with meditation, Ayahuasca ceremonies and other hippy stuff. It could be I just never went deep enough but I eventually stopped doing these spiritual practices because I wasn't sure that they were actually helping me take my life in the right direction, felt like I rather became more aimless, confused and passive the more I did them.

Its the same with spiritual practices as with psychotherapy - they are touted as ways to heal trauma and change your deeply ingrained thought patterns for the better - but I'm not sure that it actually works out like that for most people that try them, it seems in many cases just to make people more neurotic and obsessed with inwardly focusing on their flaws rather than outwardly focusing on living their lives. Maybe there are subtle aspects of how you perform meditation that makes the difference for whether it will be beneficial or not, but I haven't figured out what that is.

But still interesting to think about how differently the world can be experienced by different people and that maybe it would be possible to dramatically alter your consciousness if you found the right practice.
Find what works for you. Ho'oponopono and just sitting and feeling what comes up. Just get out of thinking and feel the what comes up. I'm in the nonduality/ advaita vedanta, neotantra and new age thinking. I seek to be more established in the actual experiance of life.

There is the strain of escapism in spirituality. Far enough, but not mine. Mine is awareness. Teachers like Teal Swan, Rupert Spira, Unmani are very attractive to me.
 

Hugh Johnson

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Yes my impression having been to a few Ayahuasca ceremonies is that most people who have done it a lot appear to be hypometabolic and have somewhat depressive/passive personalities. I get the same impression from most people who are heavily into meditation so I'm not really sure if these spiritual/introspective practices are always helpful and how the negative effects can be avoided.
In the tantra and Rupert Spira's communities they seem to be mostly energetic, beautiful people. A lot of trauma, admittedly, but they are great compared to most people imho. Suffering is the mother of conciousness, so most people in spirituality have been hurt, often horrificly so.

Matt Kahn said the old spiritual schools were for people with superior egos. So they would first grind down that narcissitic ego. But these days you have people who have been traumatized going into those practices and it is exactly what they don't need. All the old practices are at least a little corrupt anyway, and can be damaging. It has completely changed me, and I am on a completely different level.
 

opson123

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In the tantra and Rupert Spira's communities they seem to be mostly energetic, beautiful people. A lot of trauma, admittedly, but they are great compared to most people imho. Suffering is the mother of conciousness, so most people in spirituality have been hurt, often horrificly so.

Matt Kahn said the old spiritual schools were for people with superior egos. So they would first grind down that narcissitic ego. But these days you have people who have been traumatized going into those practices and it is exactly what they don't need. All the old practices are at least a little corrupt anyway, and can be damaging. It has completely changed me, and I am on a completely different level.
Do you mind elaborating a bit on "I am on a completely different level"?
 

Collden

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True. The meditation practices can amplify everything, so those modern spiritual people who are into "self acceptance" and against refining themselves will suffer. I've not met any who can meditate properly anyway - so they shouldn't be trying to amplify garbage until they have improved their character more first.
Yes, I suspect its especially the focus on unconditional acceptance, "just being", non-judgmental observing, etc that promotes passivity and learned helplessness/depression. It is literally training yourself to stop swimming when you are drowning - just accept all the crappy things in your life that are slowly killing you rather than fighting to change them, its an attitude to life apt for slaves and monks.

However I wonder if other styles of meditation can not be more beneficial for training oneself to live well. For instance the types that involve maintaining a one-pointed focus on some object and practicing your ability to notice when attention is slipping and bringing it back to the object, seems like it should confer real-life benefits to your ability to execute tasks and work towards achieving goals without being distracted by intrusive thoughts and feelings.

I once trained myself to do "open focus" meditation and after that naturally slid into "just sitting with open awareness" meditation. This is has become very relaxing and easy to do, but it now causes me to rapidly slip into a state of such deep relaxation that I basically just space out. On the contrary, single-pointed meditation on an object like the breath is quite hard, requires discipline and can even cause me mental exhaustion if I do it too long, but maybe it has better long-term benefits to ones everyday life.
 
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Hugh Johnson

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Do you mind elaborating a bit on "I am on a completely different level"?
I used to be full of negative energy. People could feel it, and would react negatively to me, young women especially. Now I am told I am loving, I get support from great loving people. I was in India, and the staff at the tantra place would literally go out of their way to thank me, hug me and tell me how great it was that I was there. They did not treat other like that, but did me after a week or so. And this place was full of tantra people focusing on becoming loving, yet these people, tantra teachers etc seemed to consider me exceptionally loving. Everything is different, but the way people react to me especially. It's hard to see it, because you get used to whatever condition you are in. The true essence of each person, as seen in kids before they are traumatized and shut down, is love and light. By clearing the trauma, I am slowly managing to bring it out.

I'm heavily traumatized and all the surface level intellectual stuff was not strong enough. Hypnosis helped a bit. Radical Honesty and Advaita Vedanta more.
 

opson123

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I used to be full of negative energy. People could feel it, and would react negatively to me, young women especially. Now I am told I am loving, I get support from great loving people. I was in India, and the staff at the tantra place would literally go out of their way to thank me, hug me and tell me how great it was that I was there. They did not treat other like that, but did me after a week or so. And this place was full of tantra people focusing on becoming loving, yet these people, tantra teachers etc seemed to consider me exceptionally loving. Everything is different, but the way people react to me especially. It's hard to see it, because you get used to whatever condition you are in. The true essence of each person, as seen in kids before they are traumatized and shut down, is love and light. By clearing the trauma, I am slowly managing to bring it out.

I'm heavily traumatized and all the surface level intellectual stuff was not strong enough. Hypnosis helped a bit. Radical Honesty and Advaita Vedanta more.
Thanks for the explanation and I'm happy you managed to work things out.

Edit: Quite a coincidence, just this morning I read the wikipedia pages about Atman and Brahman.
 
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Waynish

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Yes, I suspect its especially the focus on unconditional acceptance, "just being", non-judgmental observing, etc that promotes passivity and learned helplessness/depression. It is literally training yourself to stop swimming when you are drowning - just accept all the crappy things in your life that are slowly killing you rather than fighting to change them, its an attitude to life apt for slaves and monks.

However I wonder if other styles of meditation can not be more beneficial for training oneself to live well. For instance the types that involve maintaining a one-pointed focus on some object and practicing your ability to notice when attention is slipping and bringing it back to the object, seems like it should confer real-life benefits to your ability to execute tasks and work towards achieving goals without being distracted by intrusive thoughts and feelings.

I once trained myself to do "open focus" meditation and after that naturally slid into "just sitting with open awareness" meditation. This is has become very relaxing and easy to do, but it now causes me to rapidly slip into a state of such deep relaxation that I basically just space out. On the contrary, single-pointed meditation on an object like the breath is quite hard, requires discipline and can even cause me mental exhaustion if I do it too long, but maybe it has better long-term benefits to ones everyday life.

Right, if that is "just being," then what were they doing before when they were also just "going with the flow? :lol::lol::lol:

I don't follow re: "other styles of meditation." There is meditation, and then there is not. Either single pointed focus, or not. Dancing at a psychedelic concert while on drugs in a bikini is not "meditation," and hard to argue it is even "meditative." Yes, it definitely bestows "real world" benefits. In fact, any method that doesn't is likely a false path.

Sounds like you should try something in-between. That's why the instruction is "rest the mind on" the object at hand. Increasing concentration is required, but letting go is required too.
 

Waynish

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Matt Kahn said the old spiritual schools were for people with superior egos. So they would first grind down that narcissitic ego. But these days you have people who have been traumatized going into those practices and it is exactly what they don't need. All the old practices are at least a little corrupt anyway, and can be damaging. It has completely changed me, and I am on a completely different level.

Have a link to the quote? That's very distorted. Wanting to be part of an older lineage comes from the truth - all traditions have been corrupted since their inceptions, including ones created during our lifetimes by their own students... Same reason why you follow Matt Kahn and not one of his students...
 

Collden

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Right, if that is "just being," then what were they doing before when they were also just "going with the flow? :lol::lol::lol:

I don't follow re: "other styles of meditation." There is meditation, and then there is not. Either single pointed focus, or not. Dancing at a psychedelic concert while on drugs in a bikini is not "meditation," and hard to argue it is even "meditative." Yes, it definitely bestows "real world" benefits. In fact, any method that doesn't is likely a false path.

Sounds like you should try something in-between. That's why the instruction is "rest the mind on" the object at hand. Increasing concentration is required, but letting go is required too.
Well, in some scientific literature on meditation they distinguish between two main types they call "Focused attention" and "Open monitoring", which I think at least in the Vipassana school roughly corresponds to "Concentration" and "Insight", where the first type would be single-pointed focus on a single object like the breath and conscious effort to return focus to the object whenever you drift, and the other something like mindfulness with open awareness and non-judgemental noticing of whatever thoughts and feelings you perceive. Some brain scanning studies have shown these types of meditation have different and sometimes opposing effects on brain activation and neural plasticity.

I suspect that at the very least these two "modes" of meditation have to be balanced in ones practice, not sure what negatives could come from overdoing focused attention meditation though.

So you would say that practicing your ability to maintain single-pointed focus, as with attention on the breath, is more likely to be beneficial in ones life than other types of spiritual practice? It does feel more like useful mind training than other practices. I also feel like most human activities that we tend to deem to be useful for keeping ones mind sharp fall more into the single-pointed focus category than the open awareness space-out category.
 

cjm

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Matt Kahn said the old spiritual schools were for people with superior egos. So they would first grind down that narcissitic ego. But these days you have people who have been traumatized going into those practices and it is exactly what they don't need.

I became a capital-I Intellectual right after college during a severe depression when I read A Guide to the Good Life by William Irvine. It's a distillation of Stoicism. It spoke to me with its "triumvirate of control" (might not be the right term) of things you can control, things you can control sometimes, and things that are our of your control. It helped me obliterate my ego, which it turns out wasn't terribly strong to begin with but felt like a huge victory, but it turns out I didn't have much else driving me besides my ego: I was called a narcissist by close friends in high school and the thought of being one nagged me until I completely disowned it.

I identify with the Reich-Lowen classification of a Masochist character armoring. One of the hallmarks of a Masochist is:

"...a chronic need to damage and derogate the self. Like all anal types, the masochist has had to give up phallic exhibition and slip back to an earlier (anal) libidinal position. His anal structure makes him feel inferior and ashamed because his ego ideal is still phallic. The shame adds to and reinforces his suffering, for the more he wishes to exhibit, the more he must repress and the smaller he must make himself." https://www.orgonomy.org/articles/Baker/Masochistic_Character.pdf

Vicious cycle of ego death.
 
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Waynish

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Well, in some scientific literature on meditation they distinguish between two main types they call "Focused attention" and "Open monitoring", which I think at least in the Vipassana school roughly corresponds to "Concentration" and "Insight", where the first type would be single-pointed focus on a single object like the breath and conscious effort to return focus to the object whenever you drift, and the other something like mindfulness with open awareness and non-judgemental noticing of whatever thoughts and feelings you perceive. Some brain scanning studies have shown these types of meditation have different and sometimes opposing effects on brain activation and neural plasticity.

I suspect that at the very least these two "modes" of meditation have to be balanced in ones practice, not sure what negatives could come from overdoing focused attention meditation though.

So you would say that practicing your ability to maintain single-pointed focus, as with attention on the breath, is more likely to be beneficial in ones life than other types of spiritual practice? It does feel more like useful mind training than other practices. I also feel like most human activities that we tend to deem to be useful for keeping ones mind sharp fall more into the single-pointed focus category than the open awareness space-out category.

Haha... Ya... Scientists studying meditation when none of them can meditate. Seems like an issue to me. There's a reason why lasting insights don't come from psychedelics. The general rule is find someone who has what you think is the thing that you want, and train under them.
 

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