Athlete Michael Johnson "does All The Right Things" And Had A Stroke

pepsi

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Ray Peat said its complex carbohydrates that are released into the bloodstream without being broken down first that damage small vessels which can cause PVD, heart attack, strokes. Thats how their caused right? If you eat simple sugars or fat with your complex carbohydrates, you should never have to worry about clogged arteries, right? Thats my understanding. Does someone know Johnsons email so they can send him a link to Dr Peats work?
 

tankasnowgod

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I totally agree with you that health should be a human right and it's a travesty that so much goes on that takes that away from people under the guise of being helpful or healthful.

The hardest part of being a good human for me is to have the patience and empathy for those with that privilege - but it's the only way to go.

Patience and empathy for those with that privilege? You got a messed up way of looking at the world. So if you live on a street and your house gets robbed, you don't resent the robber, but your neighbors who DIDN'T have their stuff stolen? You'd rather everyone be a victim?

Maybe stop resenting people that simply are enjoying their Natural Rights, and start looking at reclaiming yours. Your anger/resentment/forgiveness should be focused on those WHO STOLE YOUR HEALTH FROM YOU.
 

Fractality

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What do you mean? Is it aging itself that you are referring to as serotonergic or the psychological aspect of noticing you are degenerating that is highly serotonergic?

Aging itself as cortisol rises and the protective hormones decline. The psychological aspect plays a role as well as a learned helplessness develops.
 

kreeese

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Ray Peat said its complex carbohydrates that are released into the bloodstream without being broken down first that damage small vessels which can cause PVD, heart attack, strokes. Thats how their caused right? If you eat simple sugars or fat with your complex carbohydrates, you should never have to worry about clogged arteries, right? Thats my understanding. Does someone know Johnsons email so they can send him a link to Dr Peats work?
meaning eat lots of sugar fat and carbs...screw clean eating Drugs and beating up your body on the DAYYYYYLLLEEEEE
 

sladerunner69

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There could be many factors involved, but the comments from Michael Johnson (the ex-200m runner) on how he "does all the right things" like daily exhaustive exercise and "clean eating" shows how flawed the thinking is:

from: Michael Johnson: How ‘Superman’ Olympic champion’s world was changed by stroke

1 week after having a stroke, he was back to doing twice-daily exercise!

"Having been doing all the right things like training every day and keeping myself in good shape while other people aren't, and they are fine and I am laying in a hospital bed having suffered a stroke, obviously you are going to be angry about that," he says.

I'm guessing that he's been training exhaustively since about the age of 10. He's now 51.

He talks about avoiding snacks and eating healthy food, which I guess means limited saturated fats, no sugar, low carb, healthy grains etc.

"The best thing for me is to keep the risk factors at bay by continuing to eat right and continue to keep myself in great shape. To watch the different factors like heart rate, blood pressure and diet, take the medication I've been instructed to, and then just move on with life.

So he did all the right things, had a stroke, and is now doubling down on the medical advice, medication, "healthy eating".

I find it remarkable how many of these long distance runners can die from cardiovascular disease and be afflicted by other serious ailments relatively early-0n, yet so many in our society still fawn at them as if they were the pinnacle examples of health and athleticism. In fact, there are very few athletes who carry on well into old age. Rather, most of the super centenarians seem to be laid back types, often monks, who spent most of their time sitting around the house or taking walks through the park. To anyone with the ability to form their own thoughts, there is an obvious correlation between the avoidance of endurance training and longevity.
 
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I find it remarkable how many of these long distance runners can die from cardiovascular disease and be afflicted by other serious ailments relatively early-0n, yet so many in our society still fawn at them as if they were the pinnacle examples of health and athleticism. In fact, there are very few athletes who carry on well into old age. Rather, most of the super centenarians seem to be laid back types, often monks, who spent most of their time sitting around the house or taking walks through the park. To anyone with the ability to form their own thoughts, there is an obvious correlation between the avoidance of endurance training and longevity.
It's probably a matter of being in tune with yourself and doing that requires patience and calmness, which most people nowadays don't have. If they did, it would be very apparent that running as soon as they wake up without having breakfast isn't an inteligente choice. On the other hand, lifting some weights or sprinting when you feel like it can feel very good, since it would be intuitive and spontaneous.
 

sladerunner69

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It's probably a matter of being in tune with yourself and doing that requires patience and calmness, which most people nowadays don't have. If they did, it would be very apparent that running as soon as they wake up without having breakfast isn't an inteligente choice. On the other hand, lifting some weights or sprinting when you feel like it can feel very good, since it would be intuitive and spontaneous.

Yes resistance is vastly superior to endurance training for all aspects of health. However, it does have limitations. I know plenty of weightlifters or "gymrats" who get angsty at the thought of missing even a day or two away from a "solid" workout, which is usually an hour long ordeal of many lackluster sets. I am a frim believer in high-intensity, low-frequency style exercise, because it has the most scientific evidence to support it. For instance, in "Body By Science" Douglas McGruff, a phd in exercise science, discovered after many years of research that a single weekly 12 minut workout of 5 sets of different excercises is plenty sufficient for 98.5% of the population to gain all the benefits of weighttraining from the metabolism to muscle mass. The 12 minute workout should be very quick and intense, but it is all done on machines and rep count is not important, only the "time under load" is crucial to catalogue. Anyways the argument was that working out more frequently than once every 7 days (or more if you are an advanced lifter) is actually doing more harm than good, because the musclular system has not recovered. The exceptions only seem to include steroid users, and genetic anomalies (Arnold Swarzenegger type) who lack certain gene traits which constrain muscle size to a smaller, more efficient level.
 

mujuro

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What about SERMs/SARMs?

Current SARMs are derived from all kinds of compounds like benzimidazoles, hydantoins, quinolines, and subjects taking them get weird side effects like nasopharyngitis, bronchitis and diarrhea. The suppression of endogenous gonadotropins is almost as bad as low dose steroids, with a fraction of the lean mass gains.
 

sunraiser

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Yes resistance is vastly superior to endurance training for all aspects of health.

This simply isn't true, or at least the language use gives a completely skewed idea of any truth that might be in the statement.

In conversational usage what you're implying is that lifting weights is healthier than running or cardio in general (whether you realise it or not, but I'm pretty sure that's what you intended). Walking / running / sprinting is literally what we're made to do. It's the exact kind of lymphatic stimulation we're designed to have. Of course push / pull / climbing mimicking motions are going to have beneficial possibilities for the lymph system and a strong muscle base for health promoting posture, but they're different kinds of CNS stressors that are often less intuitive, imo.

Branding cardio as "endurance" is a loaded statement to begin with. There doesn't have to be a single degree of endurance when running - a person in excellent health could go for a slow 5k run without breaking a sweat, but a person has to be aware of their limitations and start walking or stop for a rest whenever they feel like it. It's hard for most people to have this mindset but it's, I would argue, the most health promoting form of exercise once you're there.

Conversely, resistance training can also have an endurance element, and while you're clearly aware of the benefits of taking things slowly, you've added an arbitrary limitation via a once per week timeframe which for some will be too much and others too little. Again it comes down to knowing oneself and following intuition/energy levels.

This kind of reductionist thinking in general really isn't helpful on a human level - we're dynamic and individual beings. I would argue for running / walking / sprinting as lymph stimulators and insulin sensitivity promoters and fatty liver reducers because they don't involve having a structured plan or scheme to be effective. You don't need push/pull/legs or upper lower splits or specific and contrived "cover all bases" routines, you just need to move as you intuitively do as a human being.

I'm not saying resistance training is bad - pull ups, chin ups, dips and push ups all feel intuitive and great to me, but they're also more taxing on the CNS. But obviously each person is different - different frames, weights, shapes etc, so each will have different intuitive preferences.

A heavy framed person might find less intuition in running, for example. Either way the reductionist approach is not helpful for pragmatic purposes!
 

managing

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This simply isn't true, or at least the language use gives a completely skewed idea of any truth that might be in the statement.

In conversational usage what you're implying is that lifting weights is healthier than running or cardio in general (whether you realise it or not, but I'm pretty sure that's what you intended). Walking / running / sprinting is literally what we're made to do. It's the exact kind of lymphatic stimulation we're designed to have. Of course push / pull / climbing mimicking motions are going to have beneficial possibilities for the lymph system and a strong muscle base for health promoting posture, but they're different kinds of CNS stressors that are often less intuitive, imo.

Branding cardio as "endurance" is a loaded statement to begin with. There doesn't have to be a single degree of endurance when running - a person in excellent health could go for a slow 5k run without breaking a sweat, but a person has to be aware of their limitations and start walking or stop for a rest whenever they feel like it. It's hard for most people to have this mindset but it's, I would argue, the most health promoting form of exercise once you're there.

Conversely, resistance training can also have an endurance element, and while you're clearly aware of the benefits of taking things slowly, you've added an arbitrary limitation via a once per week timeframe which for some will be too much and others too little. Again it comes down to knowing oneself and following intuition/energy levels.

This kind of reductionist thinking in general really isn't helpful on a human level - we're dynamic and individual beings. I would argue for running / walking / sprinting as lymph stimulators and insulin sensitivity promoters and fatty liver reducers because they don't involve having a structured plan or scheme to be effective. You don't need push/pull/legs or upper lower splits or specific and contrived "cover all bases" routines, you just need to move as you intuitively do as a human being.

I'm not saying resistance training is bad - pull ups, chin ups, dips and push ups all feel intuitive and great to me, but they're also more taxing on the CNS. But obviously each person is different - different frames, weights, shapes etc, so each will have different intuitive preferences.

A heavy framed person might find less intuition in running, for example. Either way the reductionist approach is not helpful for pragmatic purposes!
This is a good perspective. Its why I like cycling. Its kind of like running, but with a much broader scale in terms of stress. More resolution, so to speak. Over a mile I can outpace any runner (on my bike). And I can stop and have a barely elevated heartbeat and respiration rate. Its much easier for me to "exercise" while staying in my "sweet spot" in terms of avoiding the sort of stress that has RP so negative about long distance running. But it is absolutely building "endurance" (your point) and improving health. I can even do "sprints" on my bike, and do sometimes. Its HIIT, w/o actually running. I don't like running. But I like cycling, and have a much easier time staying out of "stress" when cycling.

Of course, that doesn't mean that cyclists can't stress themselves. ANd at the high profile competitive extremes, they do, and pretty much just as much as extreme runners.
 

Fractality

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This is a good perspective. Its why I like cycling. Its kind of like running, but with a much broader scale in terms of stress. More resolution, so to speak. Over a mile I can outpace any runner (on my bike). And I can stop and have a barely elevated heartbeat and respiration rate. Its much easier for me to "exercise" while staying in my "sweet spot" in terms of avoiding the sort of stress that has RP so negative about long distance running. But it is absolutely building "endurance" (your point) and improving health. I can even do "sprints" on my bike, and do sometimes. Its HIIT, w/o actually running. I don't like running. But I like cycling, and have a much easier time staying out of "stress" when cycling.

Of course, that doesn't mean that cyclists can't stress themselves. ANd at the high profile competitive extremes, they do, and pretty much just as much as extreme runners.

Furthermore, cycling provides concentric resistance training for the lower body which we all know is restorative to the mitochondria as opposed to eccentric resistance.
 

Whichway?

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Yes resistance is vastly superior to endurance training for all aspects of health. However, it does have limitations. I know plenty of weightlifters or "gymrats" who get angsty at the thought of missing even a day or two away from a "solid" workout, which is usually an hour long ordeal of many lackluster sets. I am a frim believer in high-intensity, low-frequency style exercise, because it has the most scientific evidence to support it. For instance, in "Body By Science" Douglas McGruff, a phd in exercise science, discovered after many years of research that a single weekly 12 minut workout of 5 sets of different excercises is plenty sufficient for 98.5% of the population to gain all the benefits of weighttraining from the metabolism to muscle mass. The 12 minute workout should be very quick and intense, but it is all done on machines and rep count is not important, only the "time under load" is crucial to catalogue. Anyways the argument was that working out more frequently than once every 7 days (or more if you are an advanced lifter) is actually doing more harm than good, because the musclular system has not recovered. The exceptions only seem to include steroid users, and genetic anomalies (Arnold Swarzenegger type) who lack certain gene traits which constrain muscle size to a smaller, more efficient level.

I think Dave Asprey from Bulletproof believes in this type of approach. Advocates heavy weight lifting only once per week as being enough of a stimulus to promote muscle growth and strength. The rest of the week is about movement in a slow but consistent way as much as possible.
 

sunraiser

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This is a good perspective. Its why I like cycling. Its kind of like running, but with a much broader scale in terms of stress. More resolution, so to speak. Over a mile I can outpace any runner (on my bike). And I can stop and have a barely elevated heartbeat and respiration rate. Its much easier for me to "exercise" while staying in my "sweet spot" in terms of avoiding the sort of stress that has RP so negative about long distance running. But it is absolutely building "endurance" (your point) and improving health. I can even do "sprints" on my bike, and do sometimes. Its HIIT, w/o actually running. I don't like running. But I like cycling, and have a much easier time staying out of "stress" when cycling.

Of course, that doesn't mean that cyclists can't stress themselves. ANd at the high profile competitive extremes, they do, and pretty much just as much as extreme runners.

Cycling also has the advantage of being able to go absolutely miles for lower stress so you can change your surroundings and find interesting places to explore and adventure :)

I have an innate feeling that the bouncing or jumping motions combined with the impact of landing does something good for me (probably lymph-related), so I don't know if I could subsist on cycling. Sometimes when I have energy at home I find myself bouncing from foot to foot or literally just springing up and down haha. It genuinely feels really good and it just kind of happens naturally, as crazy as it must look.

Either way I definitely need to get a bike again!
 

managing

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Cycling also has the advantage of being able to go absolutely miles for lower stress so you can change your surroundings and find interesting places to explore and adventure :)

I have an innate feeling that the bouncing or jumping motions combined with the impact of landing does something good for me (probably lymph-related), so I don't know if I could subsist on cycling. Sometimes when I have energy at home I find myself bouncing from foot to foot or literally just springing up and down haha. It genuinely feels really good and it just kind of happens naturally, as crazy as it must look.

Either way I definitely need to get a bike again!
I have recently added a 32" monitor at work so that I can do things like that. I can bounce around 5-6' away from my screen and read things like raypeat forum, lol.
 

sladerunner69

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This simply isn't true, or at least the language use gives a completely skewed idea of any truth that might be in the statement.

In conversational usage what you're implying is that lifting weights is healthier than running or cardio in general (whether you realise it or not, but I'm pretty sure that's what you intended). Walking / running / sprinting is literally what we're made to do. It's the exact kind of lymphatic stimulation we're designed to have. Of course push / pull / climbing mimicking motions are going to have beneficial possibilities for the lymph system and a strong muscle base for health promoting posture, but they're different kinds of CNS stressors that are often less intuitive, imo.

Branding cardio as "endurance" is a loaded statement to begin with. There doesn't have to be a single degree of endurance when running - a person in excellent health could go for a slow 5k run without breaking a sweat, but a person has to be aware of their limitations and start walking or stop for a rest whenever they feel like it. It's hard for most people to have this mindset but it's, I would argue, the most health promoting form of exercise once you're there.

Conversely, resistance training can also have an endurance element, and while you're clearly aware of the benefits of taking things slowly, you've added an arbitrary limitation via a once per week timeframe which for some will be too much and others too little. Again it comes down to knowing oneself and following intuition/energy levels.

This kind of reductionist thinking in general really isn't helpful on a human level - we're dynamic and individual beings. I would argue for running / walking / sprinting as lymph stimulators and insulin sensitivity promoters and fatty liver reducers because they don't involve having a structured plan or scheme to be effective. You don't need push/pull/legs or upper lower splits or specific and contrived "cover all bases" routines, you just need to move as you intuitively do as a human being.

I'm not saying resistance training is bad - pull ups, chin ups, dips and push ups all feel intuitive and great to me, but they're also more taxing on the CNS. But obviously each person is different - different frames, weights, shapes etc, so each will have different intuitive preferences.

A heavy framed person might find less intuition in running, for example. Either way the reductionist approach is not helpful for pragmatic purposes!

Sorry, I believe you to be wrong on nearly all counts here. For a person in "excellent" health to be able to jog 5k without walking would implicate an adapted metabolism. As Peat explains, runners and joggers will have an adapted metabolism, slowing their thyroid function and heartrate down considerably, to lower caloric expenditure as much as possible. The result is a plethora of bad physiological effects, from hormones to bone structure. Most marathon runners suffer severe shin splints or osteoporosis or arthritis by time they are middle aged. Very few marathoners make it past 80, with most suffering from heart disease and various other health complications.

Running/jogging or endurance/aerobic training/excercise (whatever unloaded term you are comfortable with) is actually deadly long term, with the effect biochemically similar to being overweight. The body lowers the metabolism to compensate, compromising structure. Muscles are wasted first, and fat is more easily stored. Stress hormones, particularly cortisol (signals fat storage) are significantly elevated during runs and for long periods of time after. The effect is so prominent that I would never jog or run for longer than a couple minute at a time.

Weight training can also be stressful, but done correctly and given adequate time for recovery it can be very rehabilitative and help to permanently increase baseline metabolism and lower stress hormones. The important factor is not to give into the angst to workout too frequently, and for 95% of the population that is no more than once every 7 days assuming a workout was sufficiently intense. The returns begin to diminish once you lift weights more than once a week, because the stress hormones and lactic acid will begin to aggrandize. Running is a much more potent method of increasing lactic acid and stress hormones, though.

Having more muscle mass is also key to keeping off fat. 5 more pounds of muscle can burn an extra 200 calories per day, and that is when at rest. In contrast Running a few miles will burn only around 300 calories for the average runner, (less depending on how experienced you are). The average person will burn 100-150 calories just sitting still, so the net burn is not better than having a few extra pounds of muscle. Now add in the fact that endurance training wastes muscle mass (via increased cortisol etc) and its not unlikely you will lose 10-20 lbs of musclemass after sticking with a running routine for a few months. The calorie math says you are working much harder and burning far fewer calories, no better than when you were sedentary. The nail in the coffin is the studies that demonstrate most people will overeat after going on a run, and will overeat proportional to the perceived work they put into a jog. Thus, a person who ran a few miles to burn a NET couple hundred calories will reward themselves with a sandwich that may have 500+ calories, most of which will be stored as fat thanks to the stress hormones. This is EXACTLY why people, no matter how much they attempt to burn off those excess calories via treadmilling or playing pick-up basketball, etc, complain about gaining weight that is impossible to get rid of when they are in their 30's and 40's. When you are under 25 your metabolism is still strong enough to mitigate the damage and stave off the fat, but years of well-intentioned endurance training and unsaturated fats will damage the metabolism so much by time the average person is 45, they will find it next to impossible to not be overweight unless they drive themselves nutty eating <1000 calories per day.

I don't feel like doing long synthesis on the subject now, but the scientific data is abundantly clear. People eschew the empirical data, however, because running makes them feel good, if only for the fleeting period during and shortly after a run (endorphins/adrenaline). The stress has very negative long term effects, which are observable in the scientific literature. I read "Body By Science" which dissects this widespread misconception in detail, and is chalk full of sources.
 

sladerunner69

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I think Dave Asprey from Bulletproof believes in this type of approach. Advocates heavy weight lifting only once per week as being enough of a stimulus to promote muscle growth and strength. The rest of the week is about movement in a slow but consistent way as much as possible.

Well Dave does seem to read the scientific literature, which can often point you in the right direction, so long as it isn't misinterpreted to fit some narrative. Unfortunately Dave is one of the ketogenic madmen who is up to his eyeballs in cortisol. I wonder how long he will last.
 
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Well Dave does seem to read the scientific literature, which can often point you in the right direction, so long as it isn't misinterpreted to fit some narrative. Unfortunately Dave is one of the ketogenic madmen who is up to his eyeballs in cortisol. I wonder how long he will last.
Yeah, the fact that he's balding proves he's under a lot of stress. If he doesn't adress it, I don't think he will live very much longer.
 
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