Ascorbate And The Copper Hand-Off

[yerrag]

Which country are you in? As you are testing one element, it will be expensive for one off. I think around $90 aus, is reasonable. An importer or distributor being a regular testor for a suite of elements, prices are less and many have their own in-house lab.

I paid $87 early this year to test lead in organic meat. If I find cheaper for AA, I will let you know.

I'm in the Philippines. I'd be surprised if there is a testing service here. If there is, they'd probably send it abroad and it will at least double the cost. What did you find out with your test on organic meat? That made one hell of an expensive steak. I hope you bought the entire steer to spread the cost. Let me know as well what you find out with AA. Thanks Ella.

 

[Such_Saturation]

There appears to be a lot of ignorance surrounding vitamin C in the Ray Peat community. I wanted to talk about my experience with it and discuss one aspect of its metabolism. First, let's talk about why this ignorance exists. It exists because of fear. This quote of Ray Peat is found in several places on the forum here:



So many people have benefited tremendously from vitamin C therapy that the scare-mongering from Ray Peat and Morley Robbins should be taken with a grain of salt. (Ascorbate salts, of course!)

Yes, this is scare-mongering. Look at the language used and the conclusion. Ray Peat clearly has his fingers up in front of his face in the form of an X. It's actually quite disappointing to see this from someone who is typically very measured in his statements and who typically admonishes the authorities for ignoring context. Oh well. We all have our blind spots and Ray Peat is no exception. He has taught us so much before that this is no reason to ignore him in the future.

Let's move on to Morley Robbins. I'm sure a handful of people here have read or heard about Morley Robbins. Perhaps they know that he is supremely against the "iron madness", that he is a huge proponent of magnesium supplementation, and that he advises against vitamin D and ascorbate supplementation. His protocols include great respect for liver and the retinol it contains, as well as an "Adrenal Cocktail" that includes OJ and cream of tartare, with no explicit disrespect for carbohydrates. So one could consider him to sit fairly close to Peat in the spectrum of health gurus. I have learned a lot from his focus on the metabolism of fat soluble vitamins and minerals.

Morley's primary contention against ascorbate supplementation is that it dysregulates copper metabolism. He believes that you should only consume the Whole Food vitamin C Complex (WFC) or else you will create a copper deficiency[1]. He cites a review that discusses several studies showing lowered copper absorption due to ascorbate supplementation.

Just a week ago, I was reading this entry of his in an effort to understand why I should be afraid of ascorbate. You see, I had come to realize that when I was supplementing with 4-5 grams of ascorbate salts a couple months ago, I was much happier. I was in much better spirits and much less irritable. Discovering more about this connection is very important to me, because this was a very significant quality of life improvement and I recently quit a good paying job in order to try a new career. So if ascorbate can lessen the anxiety of self-doubt, I am all for it.

Most of the studies in the review came to the conclusion that ascorbate lowers copper absorption. However, when the review starts to discuss copper metabolism, particularly in humans, the conclusions are less definitive. Also, the review states this:

My eyebrow shot up at that, and I began to wonder if the case against ascorbate was not so rock solid.

In looking at Morley's piece, I didn't really find any suitable threads to explore. The tone of the review (written in 1998) made it quite clear that the understanding of the interactions between ascorbate and copper metabolism were still nascent and remained nebulous. Many of the studies that the review and Morley discuss are from the 1970's and 1980's. The absorption business about simultaneous ingestion of copper and ascorbate was quite settled, but there was a lot of postulating and suggesting when it came to enzyme activity. Which meant that the study findings didn't quite line up with anyone's hypothesis.

I looked for some literature on anxiety and depression and vitamin C. There are a few studies on the anxiolytic effect of vitamin C. There are also some about depression. Most say good things about vitamin C.

But then I realized something: what if the reason why ascorbate lowers anxiety and depression is because ascorbate depletes copper? In this case, Morley's still correct about copper depletion -- but it's actually a good thing for people with anxiety or depression.

One of my driving forces when I do nutrition research is the desire to reconcile seemingly contradictory theories or evidence by discovering a new context. And here was a potential example of that. If people are suffering from depression or anxiety due to an excess of copper, taking ascorbate is probably a good idea to clear that copper out. It might be contra-indicated long-term, but at least you have a new tool to use when managing your own health.

Then I searched for correlations between copper levels and depression. It wasn't hard to find studies showing that.

Morley Robbins makes a big deal out of ceruloplasmin and how important that is for copper metabolism. One of the things I've learned from him is how pivotal proteins (and enzymes) are when trying to understand the metabolism of something. If your body is not producing enough transport proteins, or interfering with them in some other way, that might be why you have a deficiency or excess of something (usually a metal like copper or iron). And looking at transport proteins also explains why you could have both an excess and a deficiency at the same time: you have lots, it's just not in the right place! Metalo-proteins are very interesting; I suggest studying them at some point (metallothionein is another one).

The next thing I looked at was if ascorbate had any effects on ceruloplasmin. This led me to a couple of papers by Edward D. Harris and Susan S. Percival.[2][3] Their studies showed that ascorbate enhanced the release of copper ions from ceruloplasmin into cells by reducing the copper ions. In a separate review[4], Harris makes this abundantly clear:

This is the key to understanding ascorbate's role in copper metabolism.
In all of the papers I just cited, the authors hypothesize that copper deficiency and scurvy are largely the same disease because they share incredibly similar symptom profiles. This makes sense in light of ascorbate's role, which is perfectly elucidated by one of the paper titles: Ascorbate Enhances Copper Transport from Ceruloplasmin into Human Cells! Ascorbate is helping ceruloplasmin in the final hand-off to the cells, so that copper can complete its job as a co-factor in a multitude of enzymatic processes.

You know how vitamin C is important for collagen cross-linking? Guess what, so is copper.
You know how vitamin C improves the endothelium/vasculature? Guess what, so does copper.

This also provides a way to understand some of the effects that vitamin C is purported to have -- primarily via Copper Zinc Oxide Dismutase (CuZnSOD). Anything from immune system improvements to diabetes.

I posit that ascorbate (when taken appropriately) will actually improve anemia. Copper supplementation has been shown to solve anemia in some cases.

I have a second part planned where I will look into another dynamic between copper and ascorbate, with a brief bit about iron. But since most people will want a recommendation after reading this, I will leave one here.

Unfortunately, we do not have very much data about the most optimal time to take ascorbate. There is just the one study looking at 75 minutes pre-food and 75 minutes post-food. Most studies have not looked at the timing of events and this is why the understanding of the copper hand-off has gone under the radar. As you can see, it actually flips Morley's hypothesis on its head! Ascorbate improves copper metabolism, regardless of whether it comes from food!

Recommendation:
The ascorbate dose 75 minutes post-food is where the increased enzyme activity took place. So perhaps an hour after a meal, when copper is freshly circulating, but before it heads to the liver for storage?


[1] Ascorbic Acid Causes Copper Deficiency?… Huh?!?…
[2] Ascorbate Enhances Copper Transport from Ceruloplasmin into Human K562 Cells
[3] A role for ascorbic acid in copper transport
[4] Copper Transport: An Overview

Ok, where is the part where you dispel the "ignorance" about heavy metal contaminants in artificial vitamin C?

 

[Ella]

I'm in the Philippines. I'd be surprised if there is a testing service here. If there is, they'd probably send it abroad and it will at least double the cost. What did you find out with your test on organic meat? That made one hell of an expensive steak. I hope you bought the entire steer to spread the cost. Let me know as well what you find out with AA. Thanks Ella.

Every country has labs. What about the agriculture or chemistry department of one of your universities? You must have a government lab or labs that do food or soil testing?

The expensive steak was not for human consumption. It was premium quality to be used for dog food treats. The the beef, lamb, liver, turkey, white bait and sardines, no trace of lead or mercury. Only in the kangaroo and venison, lead was found to be <0.01mg/kg (< 0.01 ppm or 10 ppb). No amount of lead is acceptable, even for the dogs. The literature indicates that even 1 part per trillion is too much for a small child. I was testing lead levels in dogs for this client who wanted top shelf dog treats. The lead levels were extremely high which we put down to the consumption of roo meat and venison. Lead is used in the bullets used to shoot roo and venison. We dropped these two meats due to the lead. We could not in good conscience market the product being organic and healthy for pets. People have some wild imaginings on what is considered healthy not only for themselves but for the pets also.

This client also wanted to add wild rabbit to the menu. Farmed rabbits for dog food is passe. Wild is deemed by consumers to be natural and more healthier and pet owners are prepared to pay big bucks. Many dogs and cats have died or become extremely ill due to these wild imaginings. It took much effort to convince them that wild rabbit was not a good idea. The suggestion about zoonotic diseases or wild rabbits eating glyphosate and chemically contaminated pastures was novel to them.

I will let you know further on the AA.

 

[Kray]

Skip. Seems like the site server is acting up. It's rendering the page in centered mode, and keeps flashing error messages, and doesn't save what I write. Will just take a breather

Ha! Me, too! I guess our PCs were putting us both to bed. I tried messaging you after your last reply to me and had the same error. I couldn't beat the clock before it would erase again! Will reply soon.

 

[Kray]

To this I confess ignorance. It would be nice to test Quali-C's ascorbic acid for its lead content. Considering it's more expensive, I would expect it to have low levels of lead. Where can it be tested and for how much would it cost?

Would Vit C Foundation be a good resource for lead questions? I believe they're using a Quali-C in their AA. I'll give them a holler and get back to you.

 

[InChristAlone]

I have still been using the China ascorbic acid. I know it's contaminated. But I figure my chocolate consumption over my entire life probably had way more lead. I wonder why no one talks about that? Processing of cocoa happens in third world countries. Spices are another biggie.

Not to mention people love ceramics and they are almost always enameled with lead paint unless the manufacturer wants to be ethical.

And the biggest source to date of lead poisoning is old lead paint in houses (or in old cities lead pipes).

 

[Mito]

I have still been using the China ascorbic acid. I know it's contaminated. But I figure my chocolate consumption over my entire life probably had way more lead. I wonder why no one talks about that? Processing of cocoa happens in third world countries. Spices are another biggie.

Not to mention people love ceramics and they are almost always enameled with lead paint unless the manufacturer wants to be ethical.

And the biggest source to date of lead poisoning is old lead paint in houses (or in old cities lead pipes).

Have you done a HTMA recently? If so, does it show elevated lead?

 

[Regina]

Every country has labs. What about the agriculture or chemistry department of one of your universities? You must have a government lab or labs that do food or soil testing?

The expensive steak was not for human consumption. It was premium quality to be used for dog food treats. The the beef, lamb, liver, turkey, white bait and sardines, no trace of lead or mercury. Only in the kangaroo and venison, lead was found to be <0.01mg/kg (< 0.01 ppm or 10 ppb). No amount of lead is acceptable, even for the dogs. The literature indicates that even 1 part per trillion is too much for a small child. I was testing lead levels in dogs for this client who wanted top shelf dog treats. The lead levels were extremely high which we put down to the consumption of roo meat and venison. Lead is used in the bullets used to shoot roo and venison. We dropped these two meats due to the lead. We could not in good conscience market the product being organic and healthy for pets. People have some wild imaginings on what is considered healthy not only for themselves but for the pets also.

This client also wanted to add wild rabbit to the menu. Farmed rabbits for dog food is passe. Wild is deemed by consumers to be natural and more healthier and pet owners are prepared to pay big bucks. Many dogs and cats have died or become extremely ill due to these wild imaginings. It took much effort to convince them that wild rabbit was not a good idea. The suggestion about zoonotic diseases or wild rabbits eating glyphosate and chemically contaminated pastures was novel to them.

I will let you know further on the AA.

Ella, Were you able to determine what food was best for dogs? I can no acceptable commercial dog food.

 

[Mito]

Are you using this product?

Yes

How did you find out about it?

I read about it somewhere

Should it be taken with or without food?

Either

 

[Mito]

Thanks for pointing that out. Never tried buffered. Is there a case for buffered over non?

Buffered is less acidic so easier on the stomach for some.

 

[InChristAlone]

Have you done a HTMA recently? If so, does it show elevated lead?

No, I have not, I just had to do it for my boys so I prioritized them for now. My younger was excreting some lead but no where near what I think he should be after living in an old house and his love of chocolate. The older is a poor eliminator he isn't getting rid of anything! Bad sign. They don't take the vitamin C.

 

[michael94]

Ella, Were you able to determine what food was best for dogs? I can no acceptable commercial dog food.

*
if you respond Ella would you quote me

 

[yerrag]

Every country has labs. What about the agriculture or chemistry department of one of your universities? You must have a government lab or labs that do food or soil testing?

The expensive steak was not for human consumption. It was premium quality to be used for dog food treats. The the beef, lamb, liver, turkey, white bait and sardines, no trace of lead or mercury. Only in the kangaroo and venison, lead was found to be <0.01mg/kg (< 0.01 ppm or 10 ppb). No amount of lead is acceptable, even for the dogs. The literature indicates that even 1 part per trillion is too much for a small child. I was testing lead levels in dogs for this client who wanted top shelf dog treats. The lead levels were extremely high which we put down to the consumption of roo meat and venison. Lead is used in the bullets used to shoot roo and venison. We dropped these two meats due to the lead. We could not in good conscience market the product being organic and healthy for pets. People have some wild imaginings on what is considered healthy not only for themselves but for the pets also.

This client also wanted to add wild rabbit to the menu. Farmed rabbits for dog food is passe. Wild is deemed by consumers to be natural and more healthier and pet owners are prepared to pay big bucks. Many dogs and cats have died or become extremely ill due to these wild imaginings. It took much effort to convince them that wild rabbit was not a good idea. The suggestion about zoonotic diseases or wild rabbits eating glyphosate and chemically contaminated pastures was novel to them.

I will let you know further on the AA.

Those are good ideas. I haven't thought of them. Besides, I'm not really keen on wasting a lot of time on traffic (come to Manila and you will be thankful you're in Australia). I don't want to make it my business to do tests. I just want to have a reliable and trustworthy supply of AA. In the US, it's easy to just send something for testing without having to set foot outside.

I feel like eating Australian dog food now. I just got some AA today and the COA says lead <10ppm, and your client is rejecting kangaoo and venison found to have lead of 10 ppb? And I don't understand how being shot by lead bullets would make the entire animal lead-contaminated. Wouldn't the lead be just where the bullet went in and not be spread out through systemic circulation?

I have still been using the China ascorbic acid. I know it's contaminated. But I figure my chocolate consumption over my entire life probably had way more lead. I wonder why no one talks about that? Processing of cocoa happens in third world countries. Spices are another biggie.

Not to mention people love ceramics and they are almost always enameled with lead paint unless the manufacturer wants to be ethical.

And the biggest source to date of lead poisoning is old lead paint in houses (or in old cities lead pipes).

I'm with you in using China AA. I used some Quali-C but since I have to order and have it shipped to me from the US, I just settled for the China C with the COA of less than 10ppm lead. Quali-C wouldn't say how much lead is in their product, so why pay more for it and have it shipped to me? For all you know, Quali-C vitamin C may just be a racket. Otherwise, why are they being reticent about sharing more concrete specs of lead contamination in their GMO-Free AA?

 

[Kray]

@yerrag:

I spoke with a rep from a reputable supplement company in US. I can give you the co. name if interested. They don't use COA, but have their in-house lab testing not only for their USP l-AA but also for their food line. Their 1-AA powder lists lead at no more than 74ppb, and it is not Quali-C. This doesn't mean that it doesn't come up actually less than that per batch, but that it will never go over that amount. It is corn-based. That means .074ppm, right? Not too shabby. This person also raised the point that AA may flush out heavy metals in the body.

And @janelle -her point is well taken that there are many things we eat that have much more lead, arsenic, etc to be concerned about. Realizing, of course, that if you are consuming grams of AA per day, there is concern to know how much lead you might be ingesting.

 

[Mito]

Their 1-AA powder lists lead at no more than 74ppb, and it is not Quali-C.

C-salts is 14.6 ppb (or 0.0146 ppm)

 

[Kray]

C-salts is 14.6 ppb (or 0.0146 ppm)

That's impressive. Tell me- how much C-salt do you take daily? Is this product labeled l-ascorbic acid (vs. plain AA)? Do you take apart from meals, and have you noticed your digestion to be less optimal with buffered C?

 

[Mito]

That's impressive. Tell me- how much C-salt do you take daily? Is this product labeled l-ascorbic acid (vs. plain AA)? Do you take apart from meals, and have you noticed your digestion to be less optimal with buffered C?

l-ascorbic acid but I’m not sure it matters if it’s l-ascorbic acid or ascorbic acid Is Ascorbic Acid the Same as Vitamin C? Part 1.

If you are concerned about digestion just take away from meals.

 

[Kray]

l-ascorbic acid but I’m not sure it matters if it’s l-ascorbic acid or ascorbic acid Is Ascorbic Acid the Same as Vitamin C? Part 1.

If you are concerned about digestion just take away from meals.

I think l- vs. d- vs. plain AA makes a difference in how much is absorbed, l- being best. Even so, if you have l-AA powdered in liquid, best to take it quickly rather than sipping over time, for this reason.

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag:

I spoke with a rep from a reputable supplement company in US. I can give you the co. name if interested. They don't use COA, but have their in-house lab testing not only for their USP l-AA but also for their food line. Their 1-AA powder lists lead at no more than 74ppb, and it is not Quali-C. This doesn't mean that it doesn't come up actually less than that per batch, but that it will never go over that amount. It is corn-based. That means .074ppm, right? Not too shabby. This person also raised the point that AA may flush out heavy metals in the body.

And @janelle -her point is well taken that there are many things we eat that have much more lead, arsenic, etc to be concerned about. Realizing, of course, that if you are consuming grams of AA per day, there is concern to know how much lead you might be ingesting.

You don't say? Great job. I'm interested in getting some of that. That low lead is impressive. It's true that AA flushes out heavy metals. Just better if it doesn't bring in new heavy metals.

C-salts is 14.6 ppb (or 0.0146 ppm)

Where do they show this information? Is this in the label? Or is that the tight specs they hold to? They should say "sodium-free and very low lead," although that might be a terrible idea drawing attention to lead and bringing more questions.

I think l- vs. d- vs. plain AA makes a difference in how much is absorbed, l- being best. Even so, if you have l-AA powdered in liquid, best to take it quickly rather than sipping over time, for this reason.

I did my best to research this before and it's a nothingburger. d-ascorbic acid is so rare that practically all ascorbic acid is l-ascorbic acid.

 

[Kray]

You don't say? Great job. I'm interested in getting some of that. That low lead is impressive. It's true that AA flushes out heavy metals. Just better if it doesn't bring in new heavy metals.

Where do they show this information? Is this in the label? Or is that the tight specs they hold to? They should say "sodium-free and very low lead," although that might be a terrible idea drawing attention to lead and bringing more questions.

I did my best to research this before and it's a nothingburger. d-ascorbic acid is so rare that practically all ascorbic acid is l-ascorbic acid.

I got the ranges from the rep via phone, but I guess you could ask more specific questions to satisfy your concerns.

Agree- not likely they want to draw attention to more questions when the industry is inundated with Prop 65 barrage of regulations and misinformation. A real nightmare.

Your last point makes sense. If it was a real crucial distinction, it would be more visible in labeling. I am assuming that most, if not all, AA sold by well-known suppliers is l-AA, even though most I've checked just say "ascorbic acid".