Arthritis And MSM

[yerrag]

Again, I'm very grateful for your posts, thank you. I'm sorry to say I have a rather long reply and even more questions...!

Only glad to try and help. I had to take a while to process the information you gave to get back to you.

I am sadly in my third year (maybe fourth, I'm beginning to lose track) of trying to get any help from the NHS - arthritis was revealed initially through an impact injury, but it took two years and changing doctors to get them to even look at it. At a similar time, I lost some hearing in one ear and it's taken the entire three years to have any kind of scan done. My GP is uniquely unhelpful and won't even show me the results of any of the blood tests I've had. I played a lot of things professionally, I was a multi-instrumentalist! My first was the keyboard. I've since fallen so far out of practice that I'm not sure I could consider myself stage-ready in any instrument now. It's been an extremely depressing decline. I can't even hold a guitar properly any more and strumming is impossible, I'm trying to retrain, but it's slow going.

What was the impact injury if you don't mind? I had a car accident many years ago and it involved my lumbar and I had a fracture. It was minor so my doctor had a traction device ready but never used it because he felt it wasn't needed. I recovered from it but he warned me that I'd have some pain from deposits in that fracture. Thankfully I don't have those pains except when I'm out in very chilly winter weather. Wish that were the case as well for you, but maybe you can still fix it. What did the doctor diagnose and what has he told you to do so far? And why didn't he want to share blood test results with you?

Have you tested your urine pH yet? How high is your uric acid? That would be where I start with. I hope you can free up your joints and get them back on the keyboards on the instruments the soonest.

So far, I've understood that I need to try and address any issues with excess acidity in my system, then try to bring my blood PH to an optimal range with some trial and error; and that I should try to regulate my blood sugar a bit more efficiently perhaps - I'll admit, I probably don't eat regularly enough throughout the day and this may be exacerbating things. General thyroid health is an ongoing battle, but I feel like I'm making progress. Hopefully this bit will be relatively uncomplicated compared to what comes next...

Yes, they all come together. But for now, check on your urine and uric acid. If you have HbA1c info, that would also help. And you can also give info on your waking temperature and at 5pm, together with your heart rate - just to get an idea of your thyroid condition.

This has given me a lot to think about. I assume mercury isn't the only problematic substance that might be preventing good circulation of oxygen, so I suspect this will be quite difficult to address. I should probably start by getting a blood test done, but I don't have that many fillings (I don't know what they're made from) and I would be surprised if this was analogous to my situation, but perhaps it is, and if so I can worry about IV chelation (this sounds difficult to procure and quite involved...!). If the test doesn't show anything abnormal maybe I'll try to look at other substances - would lead and things like that also be an issue for similar reasons? I'll cross those bridges when I get to them.

Mercury toxicity was an issue for me. I don't know if it applies to you. Perhaps if you have an oximeter, you can test your oxygen saturation and it could give you an idea. The problem is when I had mercury toxicity, I didn't have an oximeter to test my spO2 so I don't have values to use to tell you which values would indicate low blood oxygen transport. But I imagine if it is really bad, it would be around the 90s. If you can get values, please post.

There are other causes like lung problems as well but that's a long shot, just as mercury toxicity is a long shot but still you never know.

I assume your worries about arterial plaque were linked to your concerns about oxygen circulation? I have had plenty of problems with dental health, I still have some oral plaque right now, even... did you test for this, or just assume it was the issue? I'm not even sure how to go about getting this assessed - I'm reading about CIMTs now but I'm not certain how I'd be able to get one. Which antibiotics did you settle on, and for how long? How did they work?

Do you have periodontitis? What is CIMT? If you want to explore this route, I think it's to see a dentist who can analyze a dental xray taken using a cone-beam xray machine. I don't know if it's available in the US (regulatory thing), but it helps a knowledgeable and skilled dentist identify periodontal pockets that normally stay hidden with regular xray scans. Still, you'd have to get a good dentist as identifying these periodontal infections require skill and experience.

But before you do that, take your blood pressure and if it's normal, it's more likely you don't have a periodontal issue. To be more certain, also take a CBC blood test so you can look at the white blood cell differentials and it may reveal low level infection, and if that's the case, the case for periodontal infection begins to build up (assuming there are no other sources of infection).

Even assuming I can deal with all the problems in the tissues surrounding a joint, I'll still have bone irregularities which scrape against said tissue and cause impingement. I asked Ray Peat about this not long ago and he recommended increasing my protein intake (which I thought was actually quite high already), and checking vitamin D levels. Did you have any experience with this sort of thing? I'm a candidate for multiple kinds of arthroscopic surgery to remove them at the moment. Is the idea generally that if everything else is in place, the body will be able to restore these things adequately on its own, or is there something specific I should look at beyond what you've already mentioned?

Increasing protein intake may help, but I don't think it lands a blow right where it can knock the problem down. What sort of bone irregularities do you have? Are they dislocations or are they bone spurs or outgrowth? I don't have experience with that as thankfully they seem to have resolved by themselves, and my case is probably not as complex as yours. But I felt that there surgeries are often resorted to because the doctors have no simpler method (perhaps this is no accident but by design by the people who design the curriculum used to train doctors; more unsolved problems result in more intervention such as rx drugs and surgical procedures - more profits).

Finally: can I take it you stopped using MSM not long after this thread? I can sort of imagine it helping if it was optimising sulfur metabolism and there was an excess of it or sulfates in your diet anyway - did it initially help bring your blood PH to where it should be, do you think?

I think that maybe that's why Ray told you to take more protein for the sulfur in it. It's whole food and it works better than taking isolated supplements. Unless you have no choice but to live off low meat intake, which are rich in sulfur in the amino acids cysteine and methionine, you'll have to take MSM. Acid-base balance is more impacted by the presence or absence of good sugar metabolism though.

 

[yerrag]

My arthritis symptoms are minor- mostly in my hands. I've been taking Benadryl regularly for a couple months now, and what it seems to have done is stopped flare ups of discoid lupus on my scalp. Perhaps in combination with the progesterone I take. But it hasn't stopped the trigger fingers or aching joints in my hands. That's why I'm curious how it may have helped other types of arthritis, auto-immune, inflammation.

If Benadryl helps. But I feel that taking that regularly isn't helping solve the problem, and may cause other problems down the road. I only use Benadryl on the times I need to sleep but my colds/runny nose/allergic rhinitis hits, but I've provided my immunity that I haven't had these for the past 3 years.

If you have trigger finger and aching joints, have you checked your urine pH to just get a measure of the state of acid-base balance in your system?

 

[Hgreen56]

@yerrag you need to stop thinking that inflammation is the cause of your arthritis/gout pain.
The real cause of it is dehydration of the joints.
You have to imagine that your joints are made of elastic. if they are dried out, they will tear.
Why red light works temporarily is because it warms up your joints and the heat makes them flexible, but when it cools down again, the joints become sore again.

As I have already mentioned in this topic, sugar and salt cause the joints to dry out.
Stop using this and go back eating starch.
I know you are a Rp fan and i am sorry to say it but this rp diet is destroying your joints because high sugar and salt intake cause dehydration in the joints.
Skip all the sugar and eat starch again and lower salt intake. problem solved.

You need to focus on lubrication of the joints. Thats why msm works. msm lubricate it.
Sipping cold water all day (take a bottle with you) is working wonderful to. it keeps muscle and joint hydrated and flush all the bad stuff out of your body.
Why cold? because when you cool the body down, your body increase his body temp and blood flow to restore its own temperature.
This blood flow is lubricate your knees and also increase metabolic rate.

Try to trap the body heat in the knees with knee sleeves to hold the knees warm and flexible.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

if msm works so great, than why is ray peat against msm and says to be very cautious with it?

Ray Peat also said he doesn’t know much about it, but that purity would be his concern. I have taken it on and off for 30 years, and have taken a great brand and quit when my brand got dropped from Costco and the next brand I could tell was not pure. I started taking a pure brand again a year ago, recommended by a forum member and love it. My only advice when taking it is to take it a good hour on an empty stomach, away from food in the morning, with an eight ounce glass of water, and to seek foods high in minerals, because MSM happens to be a good Christie too. MSM and an occasional vitamin K are the only supplements I take. Many of my friends and family have taken my advice and cured their pain issues with MSM. Here is the only brand I recommend….

“In just a few years, MSM has become a supplement of choice for detox treatments. And with good cause, as it offers several advantages for in-depth detoxification of the body. Firstly, the sulfur provided by MSM is an excellent chelator of heavy metals. This means it helps eliminate heavy metals such as aluminum, lead and mercury that accumulate in the liver. Studies also show MSM can help cleanse the body by improving cell membrane permeability, a process which promotes the elimination of toxins by cells. Suffice to say that this compound could prove very useful for your next detox treatment!“

MSM: the benefits of organic sulfur!

The experts at Supersmart have put together the following guide which contains everything you need to know about MSM: its characteristics, properties, benefits, uses, doses and scientific opinion …

us.supersmart.com

 

[marsaday]

Hello all on the thread.

I thought I would contribute some info as it is on topic of knees and arthritis.

I am really struggling with arthritis in mu knees. I am 52 and very fit and play a lot of sport. I have had to really slow down in the last 6 months due to my knees. It started out with my left knee only and I have had it MRI'ed and i have a miniscus tear. It clicks a lot when i walk and is generally permanently swollen but not excessively.

I had a cortisone inject in it at the beginning of december and the idea was to see how i react and go from there. It worked immediately and the swelling went a way and it was a normal knee apart from the clicking. But all symptoms have returned in 4 weeks.

My right knee is also showing signs of stiffness and it is getting worse. So something is not right.

I posted on a thread about this here and some people thought the vitamin D might be the issue. So i stopped for a week (so far) and no change.

I have ordered some MSM tonight and will see if that does anything.

I will also try using my redlight on the joints most nights.

One thing which popped into my head while reading this forum might be relevant and looking at my history i have been trying to think what am i doing differently in the last 6 months with diet or supplementation. But nothing came up, then i remembered i started minoxidil on my hair early summer time. So i have been on it for about 8 months i think.

Could the minoxidil be doing anything regarding my knee joints. All other joints are ok.

I also (to complicate things) take T4 and testosterone daily. T4 since 2008 and testosterone since 2021. I take 125mg T4 per day and 102mg testosterone per week.

I am 175cm tall and 82kg weight which is mostly muscle. I still have a flatish stomach, certainly no belly and eat well. I drink red wine maybe 2 times per week, so i am not a big drinker. I cycle, play squash and now go to the gym a bit more as i am not playing as much squash due to the knee. I stopped playing football last summer but was doing it once per week on astro.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Hello all on the thread.

I thought I would contribute some info as it is on topic of knees and arthritis.

I am really struggling with arthritis in mu knees. I am 52 and very fit and play a lot of sport. I have had to really slow down in the last 6 months due to my knees. It started out with my left knee only and I have had it MRI'ed and i have a miniscus tear. It clicks a lot when i walk and is generally permanently swollen but not excessively.

I had a cortisone inject in it at the beginning of december and the idea was to see how i react and go from there. It worked immediately and the swelling went a way and it was a normal knee apart from the clicking. But all symptoms have returned in 4 weeks.

My right knee is also showing signs of stiffness and it is getting worse. So something is not right.

I posted on a thread about this here and some people thought the vitamin D might be the issue. So i stopped for a week (so far) and no change.

I have ordered some MSM tonight and will see if that does anything.

I will also try using my redlight on the joints most nights.

One thing which popped into my head while reading this forum might be relevant and looking at my history i have been trying to think what am i doing differently in the last 6 months with diet or supplementation. But nothing came up, then i remembered i started minoxidil on my hair early summer time. So i have been on it for about 8 months i think.

Could the minoxidil be doing anything regarding my knee joints. All other joints are ok.

I also (to complicate things) take T4 and testosterone daily. T4 since 2008 and testosterone since 2021. I take 125mg T4 per day and 102mg testosterone per week.

I am 175cm tall and 82kg weight which is mostly muscle. I still have a flatish stomach, certainly no belly and eat well. I drink red wine maybe 2 times per week, so i am not a big drinker. I cycle, play squash and now go to the gym a bit more as i am not playing as much squash due to the knee. I stopped playing football last summer but was doing it once per week on astro.

Cortisone is very destructive after the honeymoon phase is over. When I had developed arthritis in three of my fingers, 20+ years ago, is when I knew it was time to quit playing on the freeway with my diet. Cutting all grains out is really helpful for arthritis and other pain conditions like fibromyalgia. Grains really are the root of a lot of the degenerative disease of our modern times. We have genetically modified many of them, like corn and wheat, they are abundant in poison from pesticides, especially wheat, and we don’t prepare them to eliminate their issues like ancient cultures did, by soaking and sprouting. In essence, as Ray Peat has said, we are eating famine food, animal foods. As little as a hundred years ago the soil was not overworked either. Food producers have gotten careless with our food chain over the years, and people have been oblivious to the detrimental changes, with elderly pill popping people who complain about their various ailments proclaiming, “I ate bread my whole life and I’m still kicking”. They ate bread many generations ago that was far better than now.

To your situation @marsaday what did your day of eating look like yesterday?

 

[marsaday]

This is what i usually eat when working in the week. I dont snack in the day.:

Breakfast is always a bowl of muesli and a cup of tea plus glass of water. Lunch is a french stick of bread with a cheese salad sandwich, maybe a meat pasty and a danish to finish. With water and coffee.

Evening meal is home cooked, lots of vegetables, meat such as ribs, or steak, maybe some carbs such as potatoe or rice. Cheese as a side as well. Always have a cake or desert after followed by a cup of tea. Usually some chocolate to snack after.

If i am home i will snack a bit more and probably have some toast and cheese mid morning / afternoon.

We eat pasta, soups, meat for our main meals. Pizza every few weeks. My weakness is chocolate and cakes. I have a sweet tooth.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This is what i usually eat when working in the week. I dont snack in the day.:

Breakfast is always a bowl of muesli and a cup of tea plus glass of water. Lunch is a french stick of bread with a cheese salad sandwich, maybe a meat pasty and a danish to finish. With water and coffee.

Evening meal is home cooked, lots of vegetables, meat such as ribs, or steak, maybe some carbs such as potatoe or rice. Cheese as a side as well. Always have a cake or desert after followed by a cup of tea. Usually some chocolate to snack after.

If i am home i will snack a bit more and probably have some toast and cheese mid morning / afternoon.

We eat pasta, soups, meat for our main meals. Pizza every few weeks. My weakness is chocolate and cakes. I have a sweet tooth.

I suggest cutting out some, or preferably all of your grain consumption for arthritis relief, and up your calcium, and have ice cream to satisfy your sweet tooth instead…

“Numerous studies link consuming grains to inflammation. The most direct links focus on refined grains like wheat flour. But whole grains can also contribute to inflammation through various pathways.

Some of the ways that grains contribute to inflammation include:

• Excessive carbohydrate consumption
• Lectin damage
• Mycotoxins from molds
• Pesticides, including glyphosate
• ATI’s – Amylase Trypsin Inhibitors”

“Studies have found that 15 hours after consuming glutenous grains, gliadin can enter the bloodstream spreading antigenic sites through the body.

Eliminating grains containing gluten has been shown to reduce inflammation-related symptoms of arthritis, even for patients for whom traditional drug therapies were ineffective. [24]”

The Truth About Grains and Inflammation

Grains promote inflammation through various pathways, including excessive carbohydrates, antinutrients, and pesticides.

www.doctorkiltz.com

 

[Sumbody]

Just to add to this post...

I'm very big on MSM, glucosamine, chondroitin, etc. as it has helped tremendously in the past with arthritis and soft tissue injuries for me.

But I notice now that taking taurine 3-5 grams in the evening has been huge for those same issues. No gouty flare ups, arthritis or stiffness in joints I had severe injuries in before. Even when performing strenuous use of those same affected joints through work, exercise, etc.

I typically use it for a week or two at a time or so and take night's off, here and there, or whenever I feel it's needed.