Are There Any Peat-friendly Probiotics?

hoppimike

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Are any ok in Ray Peat's book? Kefir? Water kefir? Capsuled or liquid probiotics?

Thanks,

Hoppi :)
 

narouz

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hoppimike said:
Are any ok in Ray Peat's book? Kefir? Water kefir? Capsuled or liquid probiotics?

Thanks,

Hoppi :)

It would appear to be a contradiction in terms, hoppimike. :eek:
Danny Roddy says that Peat regularly takes antibiotics
to make his gut as sterile as possible.
Peat's reasoning would seem to be, in part,
that mice with sterile guts live longer and more healthily.

I know...took me a long time to wrap my brain around that....
 

nwo2012

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Coffee enemas would be a safer way to do it. ;)
All gut flora produce endotoxin so the shredded carrot with vinegar and coconut oil should help too.
 

Yves

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Endotoxin by definition are from gram-negative bacteria. Most probiotics are gram-positive lactic acid bacteria, so they do not produce endotoxin. Many antibiotics like penicillin are actually more effective against gram-positive bacteria and would be counter productive in some circumstances in my opinion. I think Peat simplifies the gut flora question and is one short coming of his approach.

hoppimike - I would reccomend florastor (S. Boulardii). There are a number of studies that show it is as effective as antibiotics in getting rid of some parasitic organisms. It stimulates the gut to produce sIga antibodies, so ensure you are consuming adequate zinc and vitamin a. (eat liver), and rotate on/off. Otherwise most lactic acid bacteria (LAB) are probably OK as long as the source doesn't contain too much lactic acid. It is much more economical though to use pre-biotics to increase LAB. From my research Galactooligosaccharides are the safest; prebiotics like inulin and FOS are not selective enough and actually can feed pathogenic bacteria. I had good success with a product called Galactomune by klaire labs. It included beta glucan which has strong anti-cancer and anti-inflammatory effects on the body and stimulates the immune system. I think S. Boulardii + Galactomune and maybe a LAB probiotic is a decent approach if you have digestive problems that are resistant to diet-modification alone. Ideally you should get stool tests and more targeted antibiotics to treat any infection you may have. This was my focus for a while on my blog - recomposition.blogspot.com
 

nwo2012

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Yves said:
Endotoxin by definition are from gram-negative bacteria. Most probiotics are gram-positive lactic acid bacteria, so they do not produce endotoxin. Many antibiotics like penicillin are actually more effective against gram-positive bacteria and would be counter productive in some circumstances in my opinion. I think Peat simplifies the gut flora question and is one short coming of his approach.

hoppimike - I would reccomend florastor (S. Boulardii). There are a number of studies that show it is as effective as antibiotics in getting rid of some parasitic organisms. It stimulates the gut to produce sIga antibodies, so ensure you are consuming adequate zinc and vitamin a. (eat liver), and rotate on/off. Otherwise most lactic acid bacteria (LAB) are probably OK as long as the source doesn't contain too much lactic acid. It is much more economical though to use pre-biotics to increase LAB. From my research Galactooligosaccharides are the safest; prebiotics like inulin and FOS are not selective enough and actually can feed pathogenic bacteria. I had good success with a product called Galactomune by klaire labs. It included beta glucan which has strong anti-cancer and anti-inflammatory effects on the body and stimulates the immune system. I think S. Boulardii + Galactomune and maybe a LAB probiotic is a decent approach if you have digestive problems that are resistant to diet-modification alone. Ideally you should get stool tests and more targeted antibiotics to treat any infection you may have. This was my focus for a while on my blog - recomposition.blogspot.com

There are exceptions to that rule. Streptococcus and Lysteria iirc. And the so-called beneficial bacteria do produce exotoxin so my point still stands. Probiotics possibly if you have an overgrowth of some less favourable bacteria, otherwise I argue they are not needed.
 

Kris

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This thing that Narouz wrote about Peat eating antibiotics struck me. This is actually my experience. I did have to take many times antibiotics for different reasons, and each time I had radical improvement in my bowel movement! If antibiotics kill indiscriminately bad and good bacteria, how come they only improved my digestion? Perhaps there is some truth that having sterile intestines is much better for us!
 

nwo2012

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Kris said:
This thing that Narouz wrote about Peat eating antibiotics struck me. This is actually my experience. I did have to take many times antibiotics for different reasons, and each time I had radical improvement in my bowel movement! If antibiotics kill indiscriminately bad and good bacteria, how come they only improved my digestion? Perhaps there is some truth that having sterile intestines is much better for us!

I think it makes sense. The problem with antibiotics is that they can cause harm. The likes of penicillin will not kill bacteria such as Clostridium (the most well known of which is Clostridium difficile). And if such bacteria are allowed to become dominant in the gut then they can cause serious issues. That's probably one of the reasons RP uses only small amounts of antibiotics. He relies more on the carrot salad for gut cleansing.
 

peatarian

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Yes, Ray Peat is known to overly 'simplify' matters and ignore the broader context.

RAY PEAT:
"In a muscle, any D-A matched pair of molecules would cause a contraction, but the same molecules, combined in pairs that weren’t exactly tuned to each other, failed to cause contraction. Szent-Gyorgyi believed that biological signal substances operated in a similar way, by adjusting the electronic balance of cellular proteins.
An effective laxative (besides preventing inflammation) causes not only coordinated contraction of the smooth muscles of the intestine, but also adjusts secretions and absorption, so that an appropriate amount of fluid stays in the intestine, and the cells of the intestine don’t become water-logged.
In the presence of bacterial endotoxin, respiratory energy production fails in the cells lining the intestine. Nitric oxide is probably the main mediator of this effect.
The shift from respiration to glycolysis, from producing carbon dioxide to producing lactic acid, involves a global change in cell functions, away from specialized differentiated functioning, toward defensive and inflammatory processes."

"The accepted description of the absorption of chylomicrons, tiny particles of fat, helps to understand the way medical professors think about the intestine. These particles, they say, are disassembled by the intestine cells on one side, their molecular parts are taken up by the cells, and similar particles are excreted out the other side of the cells, into the lymphatic vessels. As they visualize one of these cells, it consists of at least four barriers, with each theoretical cell surface membrane consisting of an outer water-compatible phase, in intramembranal lipid region, and an inner water-compatible phase where the membrane rests on the “cell contents.” Endocytosis, for example the ingestion of a bacterial particle by a phagocyte, is described in a similar way, to avoid any breach in the “lipid bilayer membrane.
This mental armature has made it essentially impossible for the biomedical culture to assimilate the facts of persorption, which would have led 150 years ago to the scientific study of allergy and immunology in relation to the digestive system."


I have been using probiotics (namely the ones you listed) for years. They sometimes helped with bowel movement. It never occurred to me that the terrible migraines I had would have been connected to the 'good bacteria'. At that time my stomach and my head were two separate battlefields in my mind. Later I found out that the level of prolactin in your blood is a diagnostic factor in nearly all degenerative diseases (especially 'autoimmune' and cancer). It is increased by bacterial endotoxins and by lactic acid in your diet.

As I know now, you usually don't have any trouble with bowel movement when there are 'enough' endotoxins in your intestines. In fact everything blocking or lowering serotonin (which is mostly promoted by endotoxins as is estrogen and as are the other stress hormones) will start a shift toward constipation. Using too much ondansetron will cause constipation. Using just enough will normalize soft stool or stop diarrhea (there is a new off label use in gastritis and other stomach diseases). Most bacteria - even the so called 'good bacteria' produce toxic waste.

Another problem with yogurt and kefir is of course that they contain lactic acid. Even mainstream medicine acknowledges the dangers of this highly inflammatory agent. Have you read Ray Peat's article on Lactic Acid?

If there are only mild problems (no estrogen dominance, no diseases, no stomach problems, no high serotonin or prolactin levels) carrot salad and charcoal every other day might be enough to keep a clean environment in your stomach and intestines. But since most people 'discover' Ray Peat when things are not going too well and start wondering about bowel movement the moment they have problems with it - a week or two of tetracyclins might be a good idea. As is staying away from pro-biotics. I know it's a big business branch now but in the EU it has been forbidden by law to advertise that pro-biotics promote bowel health. There are just no proves for it.

I have been using antibiotics every now and then. Ray Peat has been recommending tretracycline derivates for years since they are really safe. I have never known any side effects. What I do notice is that when a tooth hurts and I use antibiotics (or ondansetron) the pain stops. (Read Ray Peat for the context between teeth, endotoxins and serotonin.) My skin gets brighter and softer, the pores invisible, I sleep better and severe headaches clear up within half an hour and I see better. These effects linger for many months after a week of using minocycline in even in low doses.


For everybody who has trouble with 'bowel movement' I suggest reading:

http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml

"Despite the greater prevalence of constipation in women and older people, even specialists in gastroenterology are very unlikely to consider the role of hypothyroidism or other endocrine problems in chronic constipation."

"Aging and stress increase some of the inflammatory mediators, tending to reduce the barrier function of the bowel, letting larger amounts of bacterial toxins enter the bloodstream, interfering with energy metabolism, creating inflammatory vicious circles of increasing leakiness and inflammation."


http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/cascara-energy-cancer-fda-laxative-abuse.shtml

"Often people visualize something like a sausage casing when they think of the intestine, but when the intestine is becoming inflamed its wall may swell to become an inch thick. As it thickens, the channel narrows to a few millimeters in diameter, and may even close in some regions. In the swollen, edematous, inflamed condition the contractile mechanism of the smooth muscle is impaired. The failure of contraction is caused by the same structural changes that increase permeability. (Garcia, et al., 1996; Skarsgard, et al., 2000; Plaku and von der Weid, 2006; Uray, et al., 2006; Miller and Sims, 1986; Schouten, et al., 2008; Gosling, et al., 2000.)"

"In 1974, I noticed that I consistently got a migraine headache after drinking a lactobacillus milk product, and stopped using (and recommending) yogurt and other lactobacillus foods, though I suspected it was the lactic acid which caused the immediate symptoms. Lactic acid is a metabolic burden, especially when combined with an estrogen excess, but Stevens' main point, about the significance of our immunological response to systemic bacterial antigens, deserves more attention."

"The permeability of the intestine that allows bacteria to enter the blood stream is very serious if the phagocytic cells are weakened. Carrageenan poisoning is one known cause of the disappearance of macrophages. Its powerful immunosuppression would tend to be superimposed onto the immunological damage that has been produced by radiation, unsaturated fats, and estrogens."

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/lactate.shtml

One of the effects of endotoxin that leads to prolonged cellular excitation is its inhibition of the glucuronidation system (Bánhegyi, et al., 1995), since this inhibition allows excitatory estrogen to accumulate."

"In women and rats, antibiotics were found to cause blood levels of estrogen and cortisol to decrease, while progesterone increased. This effect apparently resulted from the liver's increased ability to inactivate estrogen and to maintain blood sugar when the endotoxin stress was decreased.
Now that hog farmers' use of antibiotics to stimulate growth has been discouraged, they have sought vegetables that have a natural antibiotic effect, reducing the formation and absorption of the intestinal toxins. The human diet can be similarly adjusted, to minimize the production and absorption of the bacterial toxins."


"Stress and anxiety sharply reduce the circulation of blood to the intestine and liver. Prolonged stress damages the ability of the in-testinal cells to exclude large molecules. Local irritation and inflammation of the intestine also increase its permeability and decrease its ability to exclude harmful materials. But even the normal intestine is able to permit the passage of large molecules and particles, in many cases particles larger than the cells that line the intestine; this persorption of particles has been demonstrated using particles of plastic, starch grains which are sometimes several times larger than blood cells, and many other materials, including carrageenan. One of the reasons it has been easy to convince the public that persorption doesn't happen is that there is a powerful myth in our culture about the existence of a "semipermeable" "plasma membrane" on cells through which only certain specific substances may pass."

"To better understand the nature of the diseases that are now becoming so common, we can look at them in a series, from the bowel, to the liver, to the immune system, and to the brain and hormones."


"The entry of bacteria into the blood stream, which can lead to septicemia, is ordinarily considered to be of importance only in extreme immunodeficiency states, such as old age or in premature infants, but the death rate of young adults from septicemia has been increasing rapidly since the 1940s."

"Carrageenan enters even the intact, uninflamed gut, and damages both chemical defenses and immunological defenses. When it has produced inflammatory bowel damage, the amount absorbed will be greater, as will the absorption of bacterial endotoxin. Carra-geenan and endotoxin synergize in many ways, including their effects on nitric oxide, prostaglandins, toxic free radicals, and the defensive enzyme systems."

"Since the bowel becomes inflamed in influenze, it is reasonable to think that some of the symptoms of "the flu" are produced by absorbed bowel toxins."

"The variations in the post-influenza syndromes are very likely influenced by the nature of the bacteria or foods which are present, chronically or at the time of an uncompensated stress or inflammatory disease. K.M. Stevens has argued that while rheumatic fever and glomerulonephritis are caused by the antigens of streptococci, systemic lupus erythematosis (SLE) is probably caused by the antigens of gram-positive lactobacilli found in the normal flora."

"The premenstrual estrogen-dominance usually leads progressively to higher prolactin and lower thyroid function. Estrogen is closely associated with endotoxinemia, and with histamine and nitric oxide formation, and with the whole range of inflammatory and “autoimmune” diseases. Anything that irritates the bowel, leading to increased endotoxin absorption, contributes to the same cluster of metabolic consequences."

"I have previously discussed the use of antibiotics (and/or carrot fiber and/or charcoal) to relieve the premenstrual syndrome, and have mentioned the study in which the lifespan was extended by occasionally adding charcoal to the diet. A few years ago, I heard about a Mexican farmer who collected his neighbors' runt pigs, and got them to grow normally by adding charcoal to their diet. This probably achieves the same thing as adding antibiotics to their food, which is practiced by pig farmers in the US to promote growth and efficient use of food. Charcoal, besides binding and removing toxins, is also a powerful catalyst for the oxidative destruction of many toxic chemicals. In a sense, it anticipates the action of the protective enzymes of the intestinal wall and the liver."


I think this sums it up nicely:
"Antibiotics, for example, lower endotoxin formation in the intestine, protect against the induction by endotoxin of serotonin, histamine, estrogen, and cortisol."
 

charlie

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Peatarian, you are incredible as usual. Thank you for that post.

Does anyone know any online sources for tetracyclines? If so please send me a PM.
 

narouz

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So, peatarian, when you write...
"Yes, Ray Peat is known to overly 'simplify' matters and ignore the broader context."
...at the top of your post,
(just so I'm clear),
you're actually disagreeing with that view, yes?

Wonderful post.
Thanks. ;)
 

Heather

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Charlie said:
Peatarian, you are incredible as usual. Thank you for that post.

Does anyone know any online sources for tetracyclines? If so please send me a PM.

I second that! *applause*

Would you also PM me, please?
 

peatarian

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narouz said:
So, peatarian, when you write...
"Yes, Ray Peat is known to overly 'simplify' matters and ignore the broader context."
...at the top of your post,
(just so I'm clear),
you're actually disagreeing with that view, yes?

As anybody who actually read Ray Peat would.
Yes, narouz, I am disagreeing, referring to:

Yves said:
I think Peat simplifies the gut flora question and is one short coming of his approach.
 

narouz

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Okay.
I thought it was something earlier you were disagreeing with.
Thanks again.
Wonderful Peatumentation!
 

Birdie

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peatarian,
Would you email me that minocycline source also? I do have penicillin in the fridge. thanks.
 

Yves

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Peatarian, there is a lot more to gut health than endotoxins. Anyway I said Ray peat simplified things because there are a plethora of organisms that can live in the human gut beside bacteria. Parasites are common, yeast is probably common (although Peat believes yeast is mostly harmless because all it produces is ethanol. not true by any means) now because of antibiotic use, worms are common in many parts of the word, etc. By the way, it is fact that lactic acid bacteria, by definition, do not produce endotoxin. Endotoxin is the outer membrane of gram-negative bacteria. Please share the information about the toxic byproducts of bifobacterium or lactobacillus species other than lactic acid. Byproducts I know of are short chain fatty acids and CO2. Hardly toxins. Lactic acid by the way is toxic to more harmful organisms, so it's a double edged sword.. Even if these species are "bad" they are clearly the lesser evil as they help the immune system and occupy niches pathogens would otherwise.
 

mdimarco

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What if I told you I can "sterilize" the intestines without using antibiotics?

Well its easy. Just use a mix of diatomaceous earth and psyllium husk fiber.

The DE mechanically kills bacteria and produces a herxheimer reaction (which can be reduced with 1 tbsp activated charcoal) which also stimulates the immune system and was used to treat cancer in 1890.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1888599/

Am I a G for figuring this out? I like to think so ;).

ps: since it is purely mechanical, I am led to believe the appendix in the cecum (fermentation chamber in mammals) will still harbor "beneficial bacteria" even after DE treatment so ya, it just kills bacteria where they shouldn't be... the intestines.
 

mdimarco

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Pss:

The DE needs to be food grade of course.

Also the Coley reference was only to use bacteria death to treat cancer. I am causing bacteria death in a different way than he did, but I think the immune boosting effects are the same (as seen by the herx reaction), and thereby I think my method would help prevent or treat cancer as well; as a side effect :).
 

Combie

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After recent experimentation im beginning to think you'd indeed be better off taking your probiotics and shoving them up your a*se! :lol:
 
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