Are healing mitochondria the key to it all?

[BonbonUK]

Consider the possibility of a thiamine deficiency or functional blockage. I experienced excellent improvement via high dose thiamine.

Thank you, I will look into that!

 

[themartian1000]

I'd stop the methylene blue (it's an mao inhibitor).

Methylene Blue: Revisited

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There's good information in this Ray Peat article: Mitochondria and mortality Multiple suggestions are throughout the article.

It is helpful to focus on optimizing oxidative metabolism which is done by the mitochondria. Thyroid hormone is a big one but not the only thing. Thiamine deficiency will block oxidative metabolism so learning about thiamine would be helpful.

I've been taking lipothiamine since I've heard it's the most available to the brain. I am not really sure how much to take. I've tried one dose and up to 8 doses in a day. I am not sure I notice a difference or if it just takes time. I really want it to help!

 

[themartian1000]

How much methylene blue and vitamin K2 are you taking?

Could you tell me where you found information on using these substances for mitochondrial health?

I take 5mg of methylene blue three times daily and one serving of Health Natura K2. I read about them here, on the forum.

 

[themartian1000]

C60oo and stearic acid......

Do you use C60? I've tried it but not noticed much. Stearic acid seems are to find.

 

[mostlylurking]

I've been taking lipothiamine since I've heard it's the most available to the brain. I am not really sure how much to take. I've tried one dose and up to 8 doses in a day. I am not sure I notice a difference or if it just takes time. I really want it to help!

You might find this article helpful: Navigating Thiamine Supplements- Hormones Matter . Dr. Lonsdale and Dr. Chandler Marrs and Elliot Overton all really like to recommend TTFD thiamine. However, if you are low in glutathione you can get negative reactions from TTFD as it uses glutathione (somehow, some way) to work. I had a negative reaction when I tried TTFD, a 36 hour long headache from a single capsule. So I stayed with thiamine hcl. Dr. Costantini's website was very helpful to me because he always used thiamine hcl for his patients: FAQ Dr. Costantini said that thiamine hcl gets through the blood/brain barrier just fine if you flood your system by taking his recommended high dose: HDT Therapy On this page, he explains that 7 days on 2 grams/day of oral thiamine hcl is equal to one 100mg of thiamine by injection. Thiamine hcl has a harder time getting through the gut and into the blood stream which is why the dosage is so much higher than TTFD. But it works just fine and resolved my brain symptoms.

I found it helpful to watch the Dr. Costantini patient videos: Videos Parkinson's Patients before and after treatment - Ultima Edizione.Eu

 

[mostlylurking]

I take 5mg of methylene blue three times daily and one serving of Health Natura K2. I read about them here, on the forum.

One thing I'm pretty sure of, you are not nor have you ever been deficient in blue dye. Lots of happy talk about methylene blue here on the forum; nobody ever mentions the problem of its being an MAO inhibitor and what exactly that means.

Methylene Blue: Revisited

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Methylene blue due to its monoamine oxidase(MAO) inhibiting property may precipitate potentially fatal serotonin toxicity at doses >5mg/kg42 and rarely can cause severe anaphylactic shock.43"

Methylene blue made me feel absolutely horrible. I was high serotonin because I was thiamine deficient. The methylene blue made my situation much worse. High dose thiamine hcl resolved my problem with elevated serotonin.

Effect of thiamine deficiency on brain serotonin turnover - PubMed

Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

A mild deficiency of thiamine is responsible for the large number of the polysymptomatic illnesses reported.

www.hormonesmatter.com

 

[Ben.]

One thing I'm pretty sure of, you are not nor have you ever been deficient in blue dye. Lots of happy talk about methylene blue here on the forum; nobody ever mentions the problem of its being an MAO inhibitor and what exactly that means.

Methylene Blue: Revisited

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Methylene blue due to its monoamine oxidase(MAO) inhibiting property may precipitate potentially fatal serotonin toxicity at doses >5mg/kg42 and rarely can cause severe anaphylactic shock.43"

Methylene blue made me feel absolutely horrible. I was high serotonin because I was thiamine deficient. The methylene blue made my situation much worse. High dose thiamine hcl resolved my problem with elevated serotonin.

Effect of thiamine deficiency on brain serotonin turnover - PubMed

Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

A mild deficiency of thiamine is responsible for the large number of the polysymptomatic illnesses reported.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Methylene Blue being a MAOI is mentioned often to be honest but seems to be a hit or miss type of thing.

Every vitamin, mineral, drug, phytochemical etc. has potential sideeffects to them. As with everything, harmless or helpful to one person, detrimental or deadly for another.
A person not lacking a synthetic dye is a wierd argument. You don't take it because you lack it, but because it stimulates mitochondrial respiration by donating electrons to the electron transport chain, lower excess NO and increase NAD. It also takes care of many foreign inhabitants (pathogens, parasites, bacteria et al.) which is a field of research (microbiome, virome) that is not realy understood.

 

[mostlylurking]

Methylene Blue being a MAOI is mentioned often to be honest but seems to be a hit or miss type of thing.

Every vitamin, mineral, drug, phytochemical etc. has potential sideeffects to them. As with everything, harmless or helpful to one person, detrimental or deadly for another.
A person not lacking a synthetic dye is a wierd argument. You don't take it because you lack it, but because it stimulates mitochondrial respiration by donating electrons to the electron transport chain, lower excess NO and increase NAD. It also takes care of many foreign inhabitants (pathogens, parasites, bacteria et al.) which is a field of research (microbiome, virome) that is not realy understood.

If you are having cerebral symptoms, odds are serotonin might be involved. According to the PubMed article, more than 5 mgs of methylene blue can be fatal via serotonin toxicity. This poster said they are ingesting 15mg/day (?) (3 doses of 5mgs each). It seems to me that perhaps somebody should point out there could be a problem with this so I pointed it out.

I'm familiar with the extolled virtues of methylene blue. I'm also familiar with the fact that it can kill you and that it is known to have heavy metals contamination. Let the dabbler in the blue dye beware.

 

[themartian1000]

One thing I'm pretty sure of, you are not nor have you ever been deficient in blue dye. Lots of happy talk about methylene blue here on the forum; nobody ever mentions the problem of its being an MAO inhibitor and what exactly that means.

Methylene Blue: Revisited

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Methylene blue due to its monoamine oxidase(MAO) inhibiting property may precipitate potentially fatal serotonin toxicity at doses >5mg/kg42 and rarely can cause severe anaphylactic shock.43"

Methylene blue made me feel absolutely horrible. I was high serotonin because I was thiamine deficient. The methylene blue made my situation much worse. High dose thiamine hcl resolved my problem with elevated serotonin.

Effect of thiamine deficiency on brain serotonin turnover - PubMed

Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

A mild deficiency of thiamine is responsible for the large number of the polysymptomatic illnesses reported.

www.hormonesmatter.com

True, but I've heard that it's only at 1-2mg/kg. I am nowhere near that dose. There are a lot of positives on here too. Look up Oxidal. But it's true. I am desperate to heal, and if swallowing blue dye might help me on my journey, I'll do it. Hell, I'd eat chicken ***t if it would heal my brain (don't think that will work though).

 

[themartian1000]

You might find this article helpful: Navigating Thiamine Supplements- Hormones Matter . Dr. Lonsdale and Dr. Chandler Marrs and Elliot Overton all really like to recommend TTFD thiamine. However, if you are low in glutathione you can get negative reactions from TTFD as it uses glutathione (somehow, some way) to work. I had a negative reaction when I tried TTFD, a 36 hour long headache from a single capsule. So I stayed with thiamine hcl. Dr. Costantini's website was very helpful to me because he always used thiamine hcl for his patients: FAQ Dr. Costantini said that thiamine hcl gets through the blood/brain barrier just fine if you flood your system by taking his recommended high dose: HDT Therapy On this page, he explains that 7 days on 2 grams/day of oral thiamine hcl is equal to one 100mg of thiamine by injection. Thiamine hcl has a harder time getting through the gut and into the blood stream which is why the dosage is so much higher than TTFD. But it works just fine and resolved my brain symptoms.

I found it helpful to watch the Dr. Costantini patient videos: Videos Parkinson's Patients before and after treatment - Ultima Edizione.Eu

Oh wow! I had no idea about the glutathione issue. With my brain issues, I would not be surprised if there's a problem there. I am going to make the change and see how it goes and also review the website and protocol. Thank you!

 

[mostlylurking]

True, but I've heard that it's only at 1-2mg/kg. I am nowhere near that dose. There are a lot of positives on here too. Look up Oxidal. But it's true. I am desperate to heal, and if swallowing blue dye might help me on my journey, I'll do it. Hell, I'd eat chicken ***t if it would heal my brain (don't think that will work though).

It is absolutely imperative that you do your own research and that you spend as much time as is necessary to learn about any substance that you put into your body. Do not just trust people on this forum with blind faith. Do your own research. Do not trust a single study on the internet; look for multiple confirmations from sources that are trustworthy. I believe Ray Peat himself is a trustworthy source. Unknown posters on an internet forum, not so much.

Dr. Costantini's research papers are hidden under Blog Posts on his site here: HIGH-D0SE THIAMINE (HDT) THERAPY for Parkinson's Disease

Take a few minutes and watch the patient videos here: Videos Parkinson's Patients before and after treatment - Ultima Edizione.Eu These are all in Italian but that doesn't matter. Each one is less than a minute or two.

I get it that you are desperate but you are also extremely vulnerable. If your problem is that you are thiamine deficient then your blood/brain barrier could be compromised as thiamine is needed to maintain its integrity. This means that you are extremely vulnerable to toxins, more so that a regular healthy person. I don't think it is a good idea for you to be experimenting with questionable things like methylene blue. But that's just my opinion.

 

[themartian1000]

Methylene Blue being a MAOI is mentioned often to be honest but seems to be a hit or miss type of thing.

Every vitamin, mineral, drug, phytochemical etc. has potential sideeffects to them. As with everything, harmless or helpful to one person, detrimental or deadly for another.
A person not lacking a synthetic dye is a wierd argument. You don't take it because you lack it, but because it stimulates mitochondrial respiration by donating electrons to the electron transport chain, lower excess NO and increase NAD. It also takes care of many foreign inhabitants (pathogens, parasites, bacteria et al.) which is a field of research (microbiome, virome) that is not realy understood.

Thanks for this reply. I didn't have the eloquence right now to put it this way, but yes, I have read all of the potential benefits, weighed the risks and benefits, and chose a lowish dose for the many potential benefits.

 

[themartian1000]

If you are having cerebral symptoms, odds are serotonin might be involved. According to the PubMed article, more than 5 mgs of methylene blue can be fatal via serotonin toxicity. This poster said they are ingesting 15mg/day (?) (3 doses of 5mgs each). It seems to me that perhaps somebody should point out there could be a problem with this so I pointed it out.

I'm familiar with the extolled virtues of methylene blue. I'm also familiar with the fact that it can kill you and that it is known to have heavy metals contamination. Let the dabbler in the blue dye beware.

Do you have a reference for this? I was unable to find one, but of course am interested. I have heard that methylene blue is safe up to 2mg/kg. Since I weigh 60kg, this would be 120mg. Some say 1mg/kg is safer, so that is 60mg. 15mg would be quite a bit under either of these. I have never heard of any fatalities reported at 5mg. Again, though, I am willing to read and learn. I have heard of the contamination issue. Again, I have also heard that at pharmaceutical grades, this is generally not an issue at lower doses. Always a risk benefit though, for sure. I am fortunate that I have done every thing that I can to reduce inflammation and my inflammatory markers are quite low. I know this isn't everything, but it is better than nothing. I suspect that my brain simply needs as much stimulus as possible to heal and reach its old equilibrium. The problem was the alteration of glutamate receptors - too many excitatory ones, too few suppressive ones. I hadn't even realized that there were receptors that suppressed glutamate activity until recently. Now how to fix? Not sure. The GABA receptors are likely less a problem, but the progesterone is at least easing symptoms. The only good news is that I have had excellent mental health throughout life and had i not had insomnia and trusted a doctor to help me, I'd likely be fine. If only I'd just taken progesterone. But, my baseline is good - my brain just has to restore it.

 

[themartian1000]

I'd stop the methylene blue (it's an mao inhibitor).

Methylene Blue: Revisited

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There's good information in this Ray Peat article: Mitochondria and mortality Multiple suggestions are throughout the article.

It is helpful to focus on optimizing oxidative metabolism which is done by the mitochondria. Thyroid hormone is a big one but not the only thing. Thiamine deficiency will block oxidative metabolism so learning about thiamine would be helpful.

Thanks to your caring responses, thiamine is my new obsession

 

[themartian1000]

PQQ is supposed to help build new mitochondria, if I remember correctly.

Taking that too - forgot to mention! Thank you!

 

[themartian1000]

If you are having cerebral symptoms, odds are serotonin might be involved. According to the PubMed article, more than 5 mgs of methylene blue can be fatal via serotonin toxicity. This poster said they are ingesting 15mg/day (?) (3 doses of 5mgs each). It seems to me that perhaps somebody should point out there could be a problem with this so I pointed it out.

I'm familiar with the extolled virtues of methylene blue. I'm also familiar with the fact that it can kill you and that it is known to have heavy metals contamination. Let the dabbler in the blue dye beware.

I forgot to mention - my brain does hate serotonin. My doctor tried me on a microdose of prozac - 2mg - and it caused extreme rage. Awful.

 

[themartian1000]

It is absolutely imperative that you do your own research and that you spend as much time as is necessary to learn about any substance that you put into your body. Do not just trust people on this forum with blind faith. Do your own research. Do not trust a single study on the internet; look for multiple confirmations from sources that are trustworthy. I believe Ray Peat himself is a trustworthy source. Unknown posters on an internet forum, not so much.

Dr. Costantini's research papers are hidden under Blog Posts on his site here: HIGH-D0SE THIAMINE (HDT) THERAPY for Parkinson's Disease

Take a few minutes and watch the patient videos here: Videos Parkinson's Patients before and after treatment - Ultima Edizione.Eu These are all in Italian but that doesn't matter. Each one is less than a minute or two.

I get it that you are desperate but you are also extremely vulnerable. If your problem is that you are thiamine deficient then your blood/brain barrier could be compromised as thiamine is needed to maintain its integrity. This means that you are extremely vulnerable to toxins, more so that a regular healthy person. I don't think it is a good idea for you to be experimenting with questionable things like methylene blue. But that's just my opinion.

Yes, yes! Always researching. Every suggestion and I do a bunch of pubmed searches, then I search for any experts, peruse any useful forums and then make a judgement. I think I am actually pretty healthy everywhere but my glutamate receptors (and probably GABA receptors). There is no doubt that they are healing, but I've seen people get stuck for years. Life is too short and precious for that. But your points are fair and I do appreciate them.

 

[mostlylurking]

Do you have a reference for this? I was unable to find one, but of course am interested.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

associationofanaesthetists-publications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

"This journal recently published an interesting case report on neurological sequelae following use of methylene blue during a parathyroidectomy [1]. Subsequently, there has been a similar and equally intriguing report by Rosenbaum [2], who suggested that the symptoms and signs observed might be serotonin toxicity resulting from an interaction between methylene blue and a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor (SRI). Another case of possible serotonin toxicity with methylene blue and an SRI (citalopram) has now been reported [3]. In all instances the patient was receiving an SRI prior to the procedure and exhibited typical signs of serotonin toxicity. SRIs do not induce serotonin toxicity of such severe degree by themselves, even in overdose, as discussed in my recent editorial [4]. Severe degrees of serotonin toxicity involving therapeutic doses of SRIs occur only following combination with monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) [5], and not with other serotonergic drugs (with other mechanisms of action).

These two cases suggest that methylene blue has clinically significant potency as an MAOI. A search of the existing standard pharmacological texts reveals no information or suggestion that methylene blue is an MAOI, but other recent literature does support an MAOI effect of uncertain potency [6-8]. Further corroboration and quantification of the potency of methylene blue is in progress to establish the degree of effect in the doses used in surgery.

SRIs have been in use for more than three decades (clomipramine has been in use since 1968, well before fluoxetine (1988)). It would be astonishing if substantial numbers of patients taking them had not been operated on with procedures that utilise an infusion of methylene blue. If it was a potent MAOI there would probably be a number of reports of life-threatening toxicity, and there are not. That leads to the supposition that it is a relatively weak MAOI, and the risk of serotonin toxicity is low. This is similar to the situation with linezolid, the antibiotic with MAOI effects [9, 10]. It is perhaps only when large doses are infused, or in susceptible individuals (for example cytochrome P450 2D6 poor metabolisers), or as a result of pharmacokinetic drug–drug interactions (raising methylene blue levels) that an interaction might occur. It is probably significant that in one case the SRI concerned, fluoxetine, is a potent inhibitor of several cytochrome P450 subtypes.

It may be that moderate and significant serotonin toxicity symptoms have occurred, the relevance of which has not been appreciated (such as with pethidine and linezolid) [11]. It would be most interesting to know if, in retrospect, experienced practitioners recognise that they have indeed seen serotonergic symptoms (particularly clonus, hyperreflexia, pyrexia and altered mental state) in such cases. Please let me know at the e-mail address below. Until the evidence is clearer, adherence to the lower dose range (< 5 mg.kg−1) of methylene blue and ceasing to use the SRIs, especially paroxetine and fluoxetine, and other potent cytochrome P450 2D6 inhibitors, is probably sufficient precaution."

-end-

My point here is based on my very negative reaction to a very small dose of methylene blue. I had a similar but not as severe reaction from eating a banana, also another negative reaction to eating a little pineapple. Both bananas and pineapples are high serotonin foods. I later learned that I had a thiamine deficiency plus a thiamine functional blockage which was a serious situation because it put me into Otto Warburg's Cancer Metabolism. If you are deficient in thiamine you cannot clear brain serotonin, which is what an SRI does: SRI=Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor. I think that a thiamine deficiency would increase the risk for a negative reaction to methylene blue.

 

[themartian1000]

Error - Cookies Turned Off

associationofanaesthetists-publications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

"This journal recently published an interesting case report on neurological sequelae following use of methylene blue during a parathyroidectomy [1]. Subsequently, there has been a similar and equally intriguing report by Rosenbaum [2], who suggested that the symptoms and signs observed might be serotonin toxicity resulting from an interaction between methylene blue and a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor (SRI). Another case of possible serotonin toxicity with methylene blue and an SRI (citalopram) has now been reported [3]. In all instances the patient was receiving an SRI prior to the procedure and exhibited typical signs of serotonin toxicity. SRIs do not induce serotonin toxicity of such severe degree by themselves, even in overdose, as discussed in my recent editorial [4]. Severe degrees of serotonin toxicity involving therapeutic doses of SRIs occur only following combination with monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) [5], and not with other serotonergic drugs (with other mechanisms of action).

These two cases suggest that methylene blue has clinically significant potency as an MAOI. A search of the existing standard pharmacological texts reveals no information or suggestion that methylene blue is an MAOI, but other recent literature does support an MAOI effect of uncertain potency [6-8]. Further corroboration and quantification of the potency of methylene blue is in progress to establish the degree of effect in the doses used in surgery.

SRIs have been in use for more than three decades (clomipramine has been in use since 1968, well before fluoxetine (1988)). It would be astonishing if substantial numbers of patients taking them had not been operated on with procedures that utilise an infusion of methylene blue. If it was a potent MAOI there would probably be a number of reports of life-threatening toxicity, and there are not. That leads to the supposition that it is a relatively weak MAOI, and the risk of serotonin toxicity is low. This is similar to the situation with linezolid, the antibiotic with MAOI effects [9, 10]. It is perhaps only when large doses are infused, or in susceptible individuals (for example cytochrome P450 2D6 poor metabolisers), or as a result of pharmacokinetic drug–drug interactions (raising methylene blue levels) that an interaction might occur. It is probably significant that in one case the SRI concerned, fluoxetine, is a potent inhibitor of several cytochrome P450 subtypes.

It may be that moderate and significant serotonin toxicity symptoms have occurred, the relevance of which has not been appreciated (such as with pethidine and linezolid) [11]. It would be most interesting to know if, in retrospect, experienced practitioners recognise that they have indeed seen serotonergic symptoms (particularly clonus, hyperreflexia, pyrexia and altered mental state) in such cases. Please let me know at the e-mail address below. Until the evidence is clearer, adherence to the lower dose range (< 5 mg.kg−1) of methylene blue and ceasing to use the SRIs, especially paroxetine and fluoxetine, and other potent cytochrome P450 2D6 inhibitors, is probably sufficient precaution."

-end-

My point here is based on my very negative reaction to a very small dose of methylene blue. I had a similar but not as severe reaction from eating a banana, also another negative reaction to eating a little pineapple. Both bananas and pineapples are high serotonin foods. I later learned that I had a thiamine deficiency plus a thiamine functional blockage which was a serious situation because it put me into Otto Warburg's Cancer Metabolism. If you are deficient in thiamine you cannot clear brain serotonin, which is what an SRI does: SRI=Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor. I think that a thiamine deficiency would increase the risk for a negative reaction to methylene blue.

That is truly fascinating. When I get well, I intend to give more intelligent and comprehensive responses. I only took and SSRI for a few days here and there at tiny doses and the effects were immediate and horrible. Never again. My brain hates serotonin. The thiamine connection - well, I had no idea. But I had akathisia as well as constant vomiting for ten months (so very poor nutrition and twenty pound weight loss), then I was put on pregabalin (that resolved thank goodness or I'd be dead), but this drug also depletes thiamine, so I am feeling a bit suspicious that this could be a significant factor as my reaction seems highly unusual. I feel a bit dumb, as I just realized that the Italian videos have subtitles (I was just trying to discern something before with no notion of what I was hearing, ha, brain clearly needs help).

 

[mostlylurking]

I forgot to mention - my brain does hate serotonin. My doctor tried me on a microdose of prozac - 2mg - and it caused extreme rage. Awful.

Resolving a thiamine deficiency via thiamine supplementation would help normalize the amount of serotonin in the brain.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Effect of thiamine deficiency on brain serotonin turnover - PubMed

Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

High dose thiamine has helped me a lot in multiple ways including cerebral issues. My own thiamine deficiency was exacerbated by lead poisoning. Heavy metal toxicity symptoms, specifically lead, match thiamine deficiency symptoms and are relieved by thiamine supplementation.