Are Androgens Really The Holy Grail?

[Fexxx]

Hello dear ones,

many here - incl. me - are keen to increase their androgens with the aim to live a happy good life.
Are muscles and permanent horniness the answer?

When I look at my 2 children (7 years), who sometimes live very un-Peaty. By this I mean for example non-stop intensive cardio, fasting (because other things are more exciting right now), high melatonin production and in relation hardly any androgens.
In spite of all the listed Peaty-KO criteria, however, children have a crazy metabolism and radiate an unbelievable attitude to life that many wish for: Lightness, energy, joy.

Which brings me to the question whether extra melatonin, fasting and intense cardio can really be as shitty as often claimed? It seems to be the best thing ever for children, can it be sooo bad for adults?

 

[TeaRex14]

I think the underlying key to good health, or holy grail as you described it, is plentiful CO2 production. At the end of the day, every Peatarian's goal is to raise CO2 production in the cell, either knowingly or unknowingly. It's really what the foundational message Ray gives us is all about. Lowering PUFA? Increases CO2. Eating sugar? Increases CO2. Clearing out endotoxin? Increases CO2. Supplementing thyroid? Increases CO2. Kids typically always produce lots of CO2 in their cells, it's what creates that youthful health they have. I remember as a kid I ate a crappy diet and did a lot of crappy things but I didn't start getting sick until around 17 to 18, late teens.

 

[RobertJM]

Hello dear ones,

many here - incl. me - are keen to increase their androgens with the aim to live a happy good life.
Are muscles and permanent horniness the answer?

When I look at my 2 children (7 years), who sometimes live very un-Peaty. By this I mean for example non-stop intensive cardio, fasting (because other things are more exciting right now), high melatonin production and in relation hardly any androgens.
In spite of all the listed Peaty-KO criteria, however, children have a crazy metabolism and radiate an unbelievable attitude to life that many wish for: Lightness, energy, joy.

Which brings me to the question whether extra melatonin, fasting and intense cardio can really be as shitty as often claimed? It seems to be the best thing ever for children, can it be sooo bad for adults?

The difference between you and them is that:

a) You have a ton of stored PUFA in comparison to them. You also have a ton of stored toxins, heavy metals, plastics in your bones/tissue in comparison to them. You have a ton of life experiences and disappointments. You have probably seen many times how truly vile the human race can be. The burden on your body, as you get older, and the toxins of life accumalating, take their toll. It’s enough to slow you down.

b) Your kids are extremely young. Therefore very high in protective youth hormones. They certainly don’t need supplements like old men like us do.

c) Their bodies are much younger, fresher, newer. It’s like a new car. Everything is new. Therefore everything works better. Then there’s me and you. Old antiques which have been around the block a few times. Parts that are years old and probably need replacing. But costs money and lots of it. Things constantly going wrong. Constantly needing to buy parts to keep the vehicle running.

This is life I’m afraid. According to Ray Peat you just got to get that PUFA out of your tissues and then everything just falls into place. Life becomes like it was as a child. Dreamlike. Hormones returning to normal. Huh. I wish it was that easy.

 

[Kartoffel]

Hello dear ones,

many here - incl. me - are keen to increase their androgens with the aim to live a happy good life.
Are muscles and permanent horniness the answer?

When I look at my 2 children (7 years), who sometimes live very un-Peaty. By this I mean for example non-stop intensive cardio, fasting (because other things are more exciting right now), high melatonin production and in relation hardly any androgens.
In spite of all the listed Peaty-KO criteria, however, children have a crazy metabolism and radiate an unbelievable attitude to life that many wish for: Lightness, energy, joy.

Which brings me to the question whether extra melatonin, fasting and intense cardio can really be as shitty as often claimed? It seems to be the best thing ever for children, can it be sooo bad for adults?

Children? fasting? You have weird kids. The ones I know eat whatever they find whenever they can

 

[lampofred]

Well the vast majority of people are estrogen dominant. For those people, increasing androgens is key. Going to that kid-like state where your metabolism is so good that you don't need sex hormones is a stage beyond the high testosterone state. But if you're estrogen dominant, you can't go to the kid-like state without first passing through the high androgen state. It's like trying to go from step 1 to step 3 and skipping step 2.

Kids are able to do what they want *because* they have high energy, they don't have high energy because they do whatever they want.

 

[Constatine]

If by high melatonin production you mean high melatonin at night and low during then day then yes that is very healthy (melatonin really shouldn't be supplemented though). Excessive exercise would be exercise that ignores your bodily ques telling you to stop exercising such as exhaustion. Simply being very active isn't excessive cardio. Moving when you feel like moving and have energy is what children do which is definitely not excessive. Regarding fasting it's more about net caloric intake but fasting can be both beneficial or detrimental depending in the context. Short term fasting can have benefits but long term fasting that results in a net caloric deficit can damage the immune system, intestinal barrier, and thyroid function.
Androgens are a factor in our well well being but I do agree it is idolized too much.

 

[milk_lover]

Children have insane thyroid function if they are generally healthy. I sometimes handshake my nephews and nieces and cousins who are in a similar age group as your kids and test their hand temperature. It's a good reference point for my progress when it comes to healing my metabolism after I crashed with extreme dieting for two years (paleo and a lot of exercise). When I feel they are warmer than my hand, I work harder on myself to increase my body temperature, but nowadays I think I am warmer than them hmm even though my metabolism is not yet there.

 

[Tom K]

I enjoy this forum. There are many interesting interventions that can be obtained from membership, and there are also many, "If the only tool were a hammer, everything would be a nail" Peat perspectives. When treating patients, one tenant held true: when objectivity of outcomes was the goal patient response is not consistent. Ray peat has much to offer, especially when theory exceeds experience. However, I have seen interventions that were supposed to work fail. I have experienced interventions that should not work succeed. We were seeing Hashimoto at an earlier age with increasing frequency. Would thyroid help? Of course. Is it symptomatic treatment. Yes! Yet, some patients responded to increased fish consumption (EPA) and sun exposure. (especially African Americans) without ERFA. When we reduced fruit consumption some patients responded better to circadian feeding. Was this symptomatic treatment No! We altered the terrain, they did not need thyroid, and recovered. Providing thyroid for life is akin to giving anti-hypertensives for life. No-one recovers but they may benefit from symptom management. Anti-oxidants for free radical modulation never helped as much as pro-oxidant IV and UV B for the flu, Lyme flare ups, etc. These symptomatic interventions often provided long term relief especially for acute infection. Unending Cardio? The literature clearly reveals that those participants have elevated rates of A-fib. The point here is question everything. Including me.

 

[Runenight201]

Muscles and permanent horniness are definitely not the answer, and having to take exogenous substances to achieve feelings of well-being is misguided. Much better to get the beneficial endogenous hormone production going for truly vital health.

1) Avoidance of all inflammatory, energy lowering foods

2) Consumption of generative, nutrient dense foods

3) Sugar, light, movement, and supplements as needed to buffer negative energy states and maintain well-being.

 

[morgan#1]

Yes, a balance of plentiful hormones is key. One of many. Maybe part of the reason children have tons of energy is because their brains have only 7 years worth of information in them. Also their bodies haven’t ingested to much of the actual ”food” (resulting in bodily aches for some; physical falling apartness for some, and mentally breaking down; PUFA’s etc), and societal food we have.

One gets stuck in the brain sometimes, remembering things and thinking, as if any of these memories were real. They are past, and remembering things that don’t really mean anything in the present. How much energy that takes? Looking at the past and bringing that into now. So the now that has possibilities...just junking that up with past thoughts.

Some people have had a great life, and maybe those rememberances makes them feel good now. And some have had a $hitty life and those thoughts make them feel bad now. So there’s a loop there. It’s ones past thoughts controlling how one feels about right now. And that sucks the big one, remembering this and breaking the loop; having so much energy. Bottom line is maybe we have more energy than we think we do, that is wasted on thought.

And if one’s hormones were on point, the possibilities are potentially endless. Feeling a solid good, not a cross-my-fingers good. Maybe that’s where the OP mentions: “Lightness, energy, joy”