Applying Peat Principles To Veganism: Incredible Results

[Cirion]

This is almost identical to the issues I have with plant based -
Hard to get enough protein, belly swallen even though BMs are better than ever - I think from starches, can't lose weight.
On the up side, after a few months of veganism I had a lift in depression, I guess due to lower inflammation.
If you do find a way to solve these issues while on a mostly vegan diet please share it.
I've joined this forum about a year ago, and I still haven't figured out a diet i'm happy with.

Yeah for sure. I've finally started to lose weight again slowly, but only by high sugar low starch zero muscle meat, almost a pseudo-vegan diet since I have officially banned muscle meats more or less but re-introduced milk, a small portion of cheese/eggs, and a bit of fish. Maybe you could currently call me a pescetarian then? Some shellfish seem to do me good, but muscle meat and me have a strong love-hate relationship.

I am interested in Ritchie's sample day in chronometer and eagerly await it for sure.

 

[Light]

Yeah for sure. I've finally started to lose weight again slowly, but only by high sugar low starch zero muscle meat, almost a pseudo-vegan diet since I have officially banned muscle meats more or less but re-introduced milk, a small portion of cheese/eggs, and a bit of fish. Maybe you could currently call me a pescetarian then? Some shellfish seem to do me good, but muscle meat and me have a strong love-hate relationship.

I am interested in Ritchie's sample day in chronometer and eagerly await it for sure.

I wonder if his oysters once a month have a bigger impact than one would expect from such a small amount.

How do you get most of your protein than?

 

[Cirion]

I wonder if his oysters once a month have a bigger impact than one would expect from such a small amount.

How do you get most of your protein than?

Yeah, oysters are a good food for sure.

Like I say, protein currently from milk, cheese, eggs, fish, and also gelatin. I found that too low protein is bad, but that protein needs are also overstated, so typically 100 gram is enough for me for metabolic purposes, and maybe 120-130 gram for an absolute upper limit (Actually looking at my database today to see if I can fine tune this # some more). Incidentally, Kate Deering in her book (I mention her as her book is RP endorsed) also recommends 120 gram for a person of my weight. And she also recommends severely limiting or banning muscle meats in hypothyroid conditions. My current protein foods more or less follow her guidelines (Most of your protein from dairy and gelatin/bone broth, the rest from eggs and fish.) I am also limiting fat so I limit eggs to 2x a day and cheese to 2 oz a day.

 

[redsun]

This is almost identical to the issues I have with plant based -
Hard to get enough protein, belly swallen even though BMs are better than ever - I think from starches, can't lose weight.
On the up side, after a few months of veganism I had a lift in depression, I guess due to lower inflammation.
If you do find a way to solve these issues while on a mostly vegan diet please share it.
I've joined this forum about a year ago, and I still haven't figured out a diet i'm happy with.

If you are getting a swollen abdomen on vegan diet that's because of the copious amounts of fiber that is likely in your diet. That's not going to go away ever for the record except if you were to reduce total fiber intake.

 

[Light]

If you are getting a swollen abdomen on vegan diet that's because of the copious amounts of fiber that is likely in your diet. That's not going to go away ever for the record except if you were to reduce total fiber intake.

I get a bloated belly on a regular diet too - white bread, pasta etc., the low quality low fiber diet i've had most of my life.
The only time it got better is when I did keto, which is why I think it might be the starch.

 

[redsun]

I get a bloated belly on a regular diet too - white bread, pasta etc., the low quality low fiber diet i've had most of my life.
The only time it got better is when I did keto, which is why I think it might be the starch.

Zero fiber diet will likely help a lot, getting carbs from very low fiber fruits, honey, sugar, fruit juices and dairy. No point in living life with bloat all the time. If you give it time for your gut to seal itself up again you will be able to tolerate more fiber if you reintroduce it later after some time with very little.

 

[ExCarniv]

Zero fiber diet will likely help a lot, getting carbs from very low fiber fruits, honey, sugar, fruit juices and dairy. No point in living life with bloat all the time. If you give it time for your gut to seal itself up again you will be able to tolerate more fiber if you reintroduce it later after some time with very little.

True, I used to be bloated all the time, it was the copious amounts of bread and pasta that I was eating, I did cut off all the starches, then after healed my gut now I can eat potatoes and white rice without problems, was the gluten (and pufas) that wrecked my digestion.

 

[Light]

True, I used to be bloated all the time, it was the copious amounts of bread and pasta that I was eating, I did cut off all the starches, then after healed my gut now I can eat potatoes and white rice without problems, was the gluten (and pufas) that wrecked my digestion.

@redsun said "zero fiber", you said "zero starch" - do you mean fiber?
If it is zero starch than that's what i'm planning to do - how long without starch until you healed your gut?

 

[Marcine]

Just make sure you follow good sunlight protocols and cook your vegies would be my advice besides checking in on better b12 intake. I read something not long ago about how supplementing it doesn't really cut it but can't get my hands on the info. A study via Haidut came out that vegetarians are having more strokes. More omnivore in winter may be called for if you live north. In your cult please let others know that the Impossible Burger is really nothing more than an agenda to conitiin them to fake food and worse. Truthstream media has a good utube on that. Be well.

 

[tap1on]

@Ritchie any luck with making that cronometer + what you eat? Really interested

 

[Barry]

My lab results are with my doc but I'll be doing bloods again in a few months and I can request a copy, then post them here if you like.
Yeah mate if you have any questions or anything let me know, i'm finding it fantastic.
I eat a variety of legumes and chickpeas are just one of them, but as far as chickpeas go, I've looked into that and they are quite low overall in fat, with about half of that being saturated/mono and half being PUFA. A couple of large eggs, for example, have more PUFA than an entire cup of chicpeas. I think in general avoiding concentrated forms of PUFA, particularly that aren't in whole food form like veg oils, fish oils and so forth is the most important. Of course it is always good to minimise PUFA intake, but if getting a small amount of PUFA from whole foods, as long as that is being balanced out with a good amount of saturated fat from say coconut oil and a decent amount of vitamin E in the diet, I don't think it is such a concern (as controversial as that may be haha).

I am following a vegan diet also. I use white rice as my main calorie source. Chickpeas have 20x PUFA as white rice and 5x MUFA. I am not sure what chickpeas offer that can't be obtained from white rice. Chickpeas also have a lot more fiber than white rice.

 

[Barry]

I'm interested in going back to a mostly plant-based approach again... could you please post a screenshot of a days worth of eating in cronometer? It would be very helpful

Also is your digestion still good after being vegan for 2+ years? I was vegan for almost 3 years and eating all of that fiber every day really messed up my digestion and ultimately lead me back to eating animal products again. Maybe I was just eating too much uncooked vegetables and seeds.

However I must admit I did really feel good as a vegan and saw great gains in the gym, before my digestion and health really started to deteriorate.

I totalled 1.5g PUFA, 2.7g MUFA, 25.6g Saturated fat. Most of the MUFA was from coconut oil. White rice has very little fiber.

 

[tara]

I am not sure what chickpeas offer that can't be obtained from white rice.

I'm not saying you should eat chickpeas or shouldn't eat white rice, and I understand that they have more PUFA than white rice, but according to nutritiondata, chickpeas also have more calcium, magnesium, potassium, zinc, and manganese (cooked, weight for weight).
Chickpeas (garbanzo beans, bengal gram), mature seeds, cooked, boiled, without salt Nutrition Facts & Calories

 

[BigChad]

It almost sounds like you're backwards or something, because you keep repeating yourself. I already answered this. The threads post topic was about zinc. My post on the thread = threads post topic. If you look at my first comment, you can clearly see that it was in reference to zinc foods and veganism. The only one who sounds stupid here is you.

It does not matter. The main topic of the thread is not zinc and was not zinc. If you simply meant that zinc was being discussed in the thread later on, that's fine. Reading your first comment wouldn't change anything.

You're infinitely more backwards and infinitely more stupid than I am. You keep projecting and using terms that apply far more to you, than they apply to others. I don't know if english is your first language, but you have no right to say things in a vague, difficult to understand way and then get angry when someone can't understand you.

There were no 'fraudulent claims' on a mineral. I simply stated what the evidence I have seen says and said if you have contrary information, show it. You have not done so. No, I did not fail to read it. It was a zinc depletion study, and the low zinc intake impacted semen.

Oh, that it did. However your study, nowhere in it, did it state that each ejaculation depletes 1mg of zinc from the body, or that each ejaculation requires 1mg of zinc to produce.

To a certain point, very low levels of zinc seem to cause a drop in semen volumes, but notice that despite less semen volumes, the seminal zinc concentrations had no change. This refutes your claim that less semen volume means less seminal zinc concentrations.


So, this is evidence that your claim that the second and third and so on ejaculation will have less semen and thus is invalid. This is likely a factor of sperm motility.

Are you going to point to where your studies or evidence ever showed each ejaculation depletes 1mg of zinc?
Are you going to point to where your studies or evidence stated or proved that every ejaculation depletes 1mg of zinc no matter how large or small the ejaculation volume is? these are some of the big claims you made.

Did you even read the part of your quote which stated the following:
"Semen zinc losses decline with zinc depletion; severe zinc depletion caused a 50% decrease in the amount of zinc per ejaculum (Baer and King 1984). This reduction in semen zinc seems to be due to a decrease in semen volume rather than a change in the concentration of zinc in the semen (Hunt and Johnson 1990)."

Semen zinc losses decline with zinc depletion. severe zinc depletion caused a 50% decrease in the amount of zinc per ejaculum. this reduction in semen zinc seems to be due to a decrease in semen volume rather than a change in the concentration of zinc in the semen.

that literally agrees with everything I've been saying.
the more zinc depleted you are, the smaller your ejaculate volume, and the smaller the ejaculate volume, the less zinc is contained in the ejaculate. that is what I have been saying and in direct contradiction to your fraudulent nonsensical claims.

Bull. And the post you responded to was clearly talking about food. What my post said:

"Similar issue with zinc as well, but much worse due to the shorter life. One can't eat their full RDA of zinc in one sitting and it last them all day. So ideally, eating small amounts of zinc with each meal probably is one of the better ways to manage and maintain a healthy zinc status. A person can only consume enough zinc at a meal to last them two-thirds of their day. Some people avoid dairy and most zinc foods and think if they just have one oyster a day in one sitting or a few oysters once a week they are fine, but the body can't build up zinc and use it later like it can with B-12. The zinc issue is then further exacerbated if the person is masturbating/having sex 2-3 times per day or lactating, or trying to add muscle.''

I said zinc is to be spaced among meals with food. Some people can't just have one of these zinc food meals like oysters and think they are good for the day. The post was clearly talking about food. If I was talking about zinc supplement, I would have said SUPPLEMENT. But I did not.

I continued to follow up my following post where I again mentioned zinc foods:

''.. Women who lactate and are pregnant also greater zinc demands. Menstruation only causes very small losses in zinc. So the smart thing to do would to try to spread your zinc intake throughout the day among a few small meals, or at the very least 3 main meals and 1-2 snacks. If you are trying to put on muscle or ejaculate often, try to have maximum amount of zinc intake among 4-6 small meals/snacks daily from zinc containing foods.''

In both of my first posts, it was clear that food was in view. You're not even a good liar.

No it was not. Your accusations of me being a liar only confirm yet again your family failed to raise you with basic morals and values. If I'm a liar than you and the people you come from would be the most evil liars the world has ever seen considering I haven't lied once while you lie every other sentence.

Claiming that the body stores vitamin B-12, a water soluble vitamin, more than it stores zinc, a mineral, is harmful. There is a reason B-12 can be megadosed while zinc cannot be megadosed. Your argument of zinc being depleted faster in the body than b-12 seems very far fetched.

When you say "eating small amounts of zinc with each meal" that can sound like you are talking about supplements. You could just say "eating small amounts of zinc in each meal". When you say "with" that can make it sound like eating small amounts of zinc supplements with each meal.

Regardless, are you literally this desperate to be right about something?
In my first response to you I clearly mentioned or implied I thought you were talking about zinc supplements.
You then come forward claiming no you only meant zinc foods.
Case closed. You used wording that could apply to zinc supplements or zinc containing foods. You meant one thing, I thought you meant another, you clarified, then I said that's fine.

Nope. You started attacking me, telling me I was pumping out info ZMA supplement companies say. Without even reading all my posts, by your own admission. You then make a claim and then tell me to prove it when you made the claim. Who is the little boy here? It surely is you, little man. I backed up what I said with 4 papers now, showing that 1) your claim that ejaculate volume is less following more ejaculations and thus less zinc, when it has been observed that this is not always the case, and 2) that a decent amount of zinc can be lost, which may appear to be in line with or maybe even slightly more than what some like Masterjohn has said.

Your post read like something copy/pasted from a ZMA article. Yeah, I only read the post I responded to.
Little slave, the papers you posted agree with my points not yours.
Ejaculate volume is less following additional ejaculations. Zinc volume is correlated with ejaculate volume your own papers showed this.
Whether significant zinc is lost or not is irrelevant. you failed to show ejaculations deplete 1mg of zinc. you failed to show each ejaculation depletes 1mg of zinc. you failed to show each ejaculation depletes 1mg zinc regardless of ejaculate volume. You're desperate to be right about everything, it's pretty sad it's this difficult for you to just admit you said or did something wrong or not backed up.

No, I said that it isn't stored the way B12 is. It is stored mostly in the muscles, but most people ideally do not want to be pulling zinc out of muscle. That is likely catabolic. It is the same way vegans say you do not need protein because it is stored in your muscles. Well, yeah...but you do not want to be breaking down more muscle for protein for obvious reasons. Just because something is 'stored' does not mean pulling from that reserve is always a good thing. B12 can be used if stored for a few days and as long as more B12 is added back, it doesn't seem to be an issue. However, drawing down on zinc muscle stores does seem to lead to issues, as mentioned in the papers. Lower zinc levels, drawing it from LBM, causes LMB to shrink.

Claiming a water soluble B vitamin is stored in the body more so than a mineral like zinc is a big claim.
Every mineral and vitamin is stored, and drawing on stored vitamin/mineral stores, irrespective of the type of vitamin or mineral, will cause issues. this is nothing unique to zinc. not consuming any vitamin/mineral, being depleted in any vitamin/mineral is a bad thing. you do not want to be drawing reserves from any vitamin/mineral.

Samantics now. "I did not say ejaculations, I said one ejaculation." Okay, where is evidence to your claim? You have none. You are making the unsubiated claims here, little boy.

Your own papers proved my point here. You're making an absurdly illogical, huge claim and can't back it up. the smaller the ejaculate volume the less phosphorus, less calcium, less zinc, and less everything it would contain relative to a larger ejaculate volume. Your claim is as absurd as saying 8oz of beef contains the same amount of zinc as 4oz.

The RDA considered the zinc needs of nursing mothers (they need more zinc) and growing kids. How is that absurd? They did well in considering that, but they seemed to not have considered male ejaculation. You said they did, but you show no such evidence.

The RDA has completely different values for nursing mothers, adult males, and growing kids. So the RDA obviously did, to some extent, differentiate between zinc intakes between men, women and kids. The RDA is meant to cover basic functions of the body. What do you think the 11mg of zinc in the RDA is meant for? What functions are those 11mg of zinc doing? You act like the first 11mg of zinc consumed in a day do nothing and you need to keep adding more and more zinc for basic reproductive or other functions.

You don't make any sense here. How is it weird that they considered kids and moms for zinc intake and use? You said above the RDA is 4mg, now you say it is 11mg...

Did you not read what I said? The RDA for kids is 4mg, for nursing mothers 12mg, for adult males 11mg.
Obviously, they have differentiated zinc intakes between populations. According to some, the 11mg zinc intake is not optimal for most adult males. Which is fine, especially since the previous rda used to be 15mg, and the ideal intake could be 20mg or 25mg. Going above that, unless you are consuming adequate copper and iron you could begin to get hypothyroid or anemia symptoms. It shouldn't be an issue with zinc containing foods though.

No, I have remained consistant in what I said. I said nothing about the RDA. I only mentioned that the amount for zinc intake set by the RDA people factored in the zinc needs of kids and mothers and mentioned it in relation to total intake conversions. You for some reason are arguing about the RDA for kids vs moms. That has nothing to do with them leaving men out of the equation when it comes to zinc loss via ejaculation.

You seem to not understand what I said, and then make things up along the way.

How do you know they didn't factor in ejaculation when coming up with mens ejaculation? Obviously if the childrens RDA is 4mg and adult men RDA is 11mg, they have to some extent, factored in the fact that adult men need more zinc intake. If reproduction is a basic human function, you would think the 11mg rda would at least account for ejaculation to some extent? If you go with the previous RDA of 15mg for adult men, that's even better.

 

[BigChad]

Zero fiber diet will likely help a lot, getting carbs from very low fiber fruits, honey, sugar, fruit juices and dairy. No point in living life with bloat all the time. If you give it time for your gut to seal itself up again you will be able to tolerate more fiber if you reintroduce it later after some time with very little.

how long does it take for the gut to seal up again and what do you do to speed it up? i heard glutamine/whey protein speeds up gut repair?

 

[redsun]

Claiming that the body stores vitamin B-12, a water soluble vitamin, more than it stores zinc, a mineral, is harmful. There is a reason B-12 can be megadosed while zinc cannot be megadosed. Your argument of zinc being depleted faster in the body than b-12 seems very far fetched.

The body stores 2 to 5mg or 2000mcg to 5000mcg of B12 in the body, half of it in the liver. You need only need a few mcg a day because that's how much you lose. If you don't consume B12, your body stores of B12 can last years before you get serious deficiency states depending on your own storage level of B12. This is why vegans not taking B12 dont kill over from b12 deficiency in a few weeks. This is not a claim, this is basic scientific fact. B12 is not like the other B vitamins.

You can megadose B12 because B12 absorption is stupidly low, You can only absorb 2mcg at a time, and the 5mg pills get absorbed at a rate of less than 1% by passive diffusion in the intestines. This is meant for those who are deficient to get levels up faster. This is why injections are common because it bypasses the piss poor absorption which is vital for raising B12 levels in the deficient as quickly as possible.

how long does it take for the gut to seal up again and what do you do to speed it up? i heard glutamine/whey protein speeds up gut repair?

There is no reasonable timeline to how long your gut needs to repair itself. Yes glutamine is supposed to help but in general, Eating how I already mentioned and eatings lots of protein, cholesterol, and other important structural nutrients as well will help repair damage quicker but it will take time and largely depends on the individual. Regardless there should be improvement in the inflammation and gut bloat within a few days and the rest just takes time. I would not supplement glutamine. Dairy, especially cheeses are especially high in glutamine if you want more of it.

 

[Waremu]

It does not matter. The main topic of the thread is not zinc and was not zinc. If you simply meant that zinc was being discussed in the thread later on, that's fine. Reading your first comment wouldn't change anything.

You're infinitely more backwards and infinitely more stupid than I am. You keep projecting and using terms that apply far more to you, than they apply to others.

The main thread topic was about veganism. Not obtaining sufficient zinc as it pertains to veganism has to do with veganism. So I do not care what you think. My post was about zinc and you responded to my post about zinc. So I will say as I please. Suck it up, little snowflake.
​

I don't know if english is your first language, but you have no right to say things in a vague, difficult to understand way and then get angry when someone can't understand you.

Coming from someone who has repeatedly misspelled the word "you're", by using "your" in place of "you're." What is clear here is your lack of intelligence, if anything. Secondly, if something is vague to you, you then ask questions about the content, not slander or attack people. I only responded you the way that I did after your failed attempt at trying to preach to me about something I originally was not talking about and, instead of ask, throw condescending remarks towards me. And, like the typical entitled snowflake narcissist, when rebuked and confronted for your gibberish, you play victim. Congrats, stupid.

Clearly, you, someone who appears to not be able to have passed sixth grade spelling, shouldn't be attempting to preach to anyone about how dumb they are, or how bad their English is. I mean, after all, you're the same person who reads supplement threads to get your scientific information. ​

Oh, that it did. However your study, nowhere in it, did it state that each ejaculation depletes 1mg of zinc from the body, or that each ejaculation requires 1mg of zinc to produce.

First you deny that one can lose that much zinc from a single ejaculation, and then you go into damage control to divert and say that one doesn't lose that much zinc after the following ejaculations.

The studies I showed already show that .6 or as much as the range of 1mg can be lost from a single ejaculation.

Now you claim zinc content following more than one ejaculation always diminishes, but this is not always the case.​

Are you going to point to where your studies or evidence ever showed each ejaculation depletes 1mg of zinc?

​

Are you going to point to where your studies or evidence stated or proved that every ejaculation depletes 1mg of zinc no matter how large or small the ejaculation volume is? these are some of the big claims you made.

I already did above. .6 mg or more in one study already. And here is another one, showing as much as .7mg of zinc lost in a load of average size:


"The concentrations of lead, magnesium, selenium and zinc in seminal fluid from men with variable semen quality (sperm morphology, density and motility) and fertility were determined by atomic absorption spectrometer without or with Zeeman background correction. The mean (±SD) concentration of selenium in the samples (n = 142) was 28.8 ± 9.5 μg/l, which was about a third of the corresponding serum value (77.8 ± 13.3 μg/l, n = 140). The serum selenium level was significantly (P < 0.001) higher in infertile than in fertile men, but the seminal fluid did not show such a difference. No correlation was obtained between selenium values in seminal plasma and sperm density or motility. The levels of lead in seminal fluid were very low with no correlation to the levels of magnesium, selenium and zinc or the semen qualities. The seminal fluid lead concentration was significantly (P < 0.001) higher in infertile (3.6 ± 3.2 μg/l, n = 79) than in fertile men (1.7 ± 1.0 μg/l, n = 39). Magnesium (103.5 ± 49.2 mg/l, n = 90) and zinc (141.1 + 71.7 mg/l, n = 157) concentrations in seminal fluid were comparable with previous reports."

Lead, magnesium, selenium and zinc in human seminal fluid: comparison with semen parameters and fertility

This is an abstract from the scientific article, it says that 141.1 + 71.7 mg/l zinc is found in each load. And we know that a normal sperm load is around 5ml. 0,07175 = 0,3585 mg 0,14115 = 0,7055mg of zinc lost in a normal load. So if you have a load larger than 5ml, which men often do, you can lose well over 0.7 mg of zinc, which would easily put you near or at 1mg + of zinc.

But with a normal size load yielding .35-.7 mg of zinc, that appears to be about 5% of your bodies zinc stores. So if you are just masturbating once per day, that is about 3-6% of your RDA of zinc lost in a semen load of average size. .7mg in an average load is close enough to 1mg.

Also, contrast this with the fact that you lose about a milligram of zinc in sweat over the course of two hours of exercise. (source: Sweat iron and zinc losses during prolonged exercise.)

So with ejaculation per day, you could lose almost 1 mg (.7mg, more if load is larger), and any normal exercise lasting a couple hours, that is another mg of zinc. So together that is 9% of your RDA. A large number of healthy men exercise every day and masturbate or have sex daily. You can say 6-9% being lost almost daily among a large portion of the population isn't a substantial amount, but that is relative. Losing 6-9% per day if you only eat zinc meals a couple times a day with grains and calcium that can greatly impede the absorption of zinc can easily add up. Especially if you eat more white mean that is much lower in zinc than red meat, like many populations do.

Did you even read the part of your quote which stated the following:
"Semen zinc losses decline with zinc depletion; severe zinc depletion caused a 50% decrease in the amount of zinc per ejaculum (Baer and King 1984). This reduction in semen zinc seems to be due to a decrease in semen volume rather than a change in the concentration of zinc in the semen (Hunt and Johnson 1990)."

that literally agrees with everything I've been saying.
the more zinc depleted you are, the smaller your ejaculate volume, and the smaller the ejaculate volume, the less zinc is contained in the ejaculate. that is what I have been saying and in direct contradiction to your fraudulent nonsensical claims.​

Yes, but you clearly did not understand it, or the other study, which you left out. Again, first study:

"Semen zinc losses decline with zinc depletion; severe zinc depletion caused a 50% decrease in the amount of zinc per ejaculum (Baer and King 1984). This reduction in semen zinc seems to be due to a decrease in semen volume rather than a change in the concentration of zinc in the semen (Hunt and Johnson 1990)."

This paper shows that zinc volume decreases due to zinc depletion, not that zinc content related to semen volume decreases within a one day window outside of a severe zinc depletion model. The zinc depletion causes lower semen volume. It wasn't due to ejaculating more than once. You are trying to say use this decrease in semen volume to show that semen volume decreases and zinc content decreases as the result of excessive masturbation, but the decreased semen volume wasn't caused by excessive masturbation. It was artificially induced by inducing a zinc depletion. It says a 'severe zinc depletion caused a 50% decrease in the amount of zinc per ejaculum." In other words, you only see the large decrease of 50% in zinc in semen when a "severe zinc depletion" takes place. So yes, amount of zinc decrease per ejaculum, due to volume, once a 'severe zinc depletion is reached.' So, in other words, a severe zinc depletion or deficiency will cause semen volumes to decrease. That is all. It does not show that semen volume decreases zinc content before or outside a severe depletion, nor does it consider whether they were consecutive ejaculations or not. So someone may not have a major zinc deficiency, and therefore, a 50% reduction in semen volume or zinc per ejaculum may not occur. It only occurs largely once you get to the point "severe zinc depletion."

Now you re trying to say that this shows that someone who is not in a severe zinc deficiency or depletion will have a almost half percentage decrease in their zinc per ejaculum. Study does not say or prove that. As I said, it suggests that zinc semen volume only beings once you reach the point of 'severe zinc depletion.' So someone could be losing more zinc in their ejaculate, with very little but not large decreases in semen volume until they get to the point where they are eating so little zinc that is causes a major drop-off or reduction in semen zinc content. That is what this paper suggests. It is not saying someone who has not induced severe zinc depletion would see a 50% zinc decrease in zinc per ejaculum. Furthermore, they nor you have showed that volumes largely decrease if ejaculations are not done consecutively. In other words, not back to back, but still within a 24 hour window. So, for example, someone masturbates in the morning and then has sex at late in the night. You clearly lack any understanding of nuance here and are trying to use your wrong interpretation to suggest that this is so.

From the second study:


''Seminal loss accounted for 9% of total body zinc loss when 1.4 mg Zn/d was consumed. Seminal phosphorus concentrations were elevated during all four phases of zinc depletion (28.4 vs 32.9, 31.0, 34.2, and 33.6 mmol/L).''

But...

"......volunteers consuming 1.4 mg Zn/d exhibited decreased semen volumes (3.30 vs 2.24 mL) and serum testosterone concentrations (26.9 vs 21.9 nmol/L), and no change in seminal zinc concentrations."

So here you have volunteers who consumed very little zinc, even to the point of it making up 9% of their bodies zinc loss, and they, like the first study, had a decrease in semen volumes. Again, it was due to zinc depletion. But, did their zinc concentrations change? No. Neither study showed that semen volume decreases over the course of a single day after first ejaculation either. But none of that matters because, the decreased volumes were not induced by excessive ejaculation.

So, we see from the studies that 1) Severe zinc depletion causes decreased semen volume, thereby decreasing semen zinc content, but not zinc concentration, 2) was not caused by excessive or more than one ejaculation. We also see that, outside of a zinc depletion model, in normal circumstances, semen volume varies and no evidence shows that it decreases noticeably in zinc content if the following ejaculation is not consecutively executed.

You are assuming that 1) the following ejaculation to the first one will have a fairly larger decrease in volume and thus zinc content, by wrongly using zinc depletion models to show that, and 2) without showing any evidence that the second ejaculation is much smaller in volume without any of the other variables that can impact semen volume, like the ones mentioned above.

No it was not. Your accusations of me being a liar only confirm yet again your family failed to raise you with basic morals and values. If I'm a liar than you and the people you come from would be the most evil liars the world has ever seen considering I haven't lied once while you lie every other sentence.

You are a liar. You said I was talking about zinc supplements, yet showed no evidence that I said to take it in supplement form, etc., I could go on. You are a pretty bad liar too.

Claiming that the body stores vitamin B-12, a water soluble vitamin, more than it stores zinc, a mineral, is harmful. There is a reason B-12 can be megadosed while zinc cannot be megadosed. Your argument of zinc being depleted faster in the body than b-12 seems very far fetched.

Once again, another inaccurate claim or lie. No, I said that you cannot compare the bodies needs and uses for zinc to B-12. I also said that the body can store B-12 over the course of days if enough is consumed, and at that point one could go a few days or even much longer, if the bodies stores are built up, but it requires high intakes of B-12 for sustained periods of time, whereas, in contrast to Zinc, it is easier to deplete the body of zinc through a combination of exercise, masturbation, anti-nutrients, and not spacing out your zinc and making the mistake of consuming it all at once thinking you are good for the day when you are not. For this reason, it is easier to get enough B-12 and overshoot on assuming you have enough zinc daily. You can go a while without a full on B-12 deficiency showing it's face, but you can not go that long eating a very low intake of zinc without zinc levels falling. Did you not look at the zinc depletion studies? Over the course of weeks, zinc levels fell dramatically. This type of dramatic effect wouldn't happen over such a short period of time if someone built up their B-12 stores which could last for far longer. Not much B-12 is absorbed, so that is partly why it can be megadosed. Zinc has a better absorption, though you can only consume a maximum amount per day. As zinc levels fall over a short amount of time, you can see it reflected in lower testosterone levels, etc. The short-term effect is likely more immediate than drawing down on high B-12 stores for a few weeks, etc.

When you say "eating small amounts of zinc with each meal" that can sound like you are talking about supplements. You could just say "eating small amounts of zinc in each meal". When you say "with" that can make it sound like eating small amounts of zinc supplements with each meal.

No, that is highly subjective because you think it sounds like I am talking about supplements, but the fact is, it doesn't matter what you subjectively think it sounded like; what matters is that I 1) did not explicitly say supplement anywhere, therefore it is your highly subjective assumption and 2) within the same posts and same contexts, I mentioned "zinc containing foods." So you not only subjectively assumed that I was talking about supplements when I didn't say supplements, you also ignored the parts where I mentioned getting it from zinc containing foods. It was all your error. You assumed with no grounds or evidence.
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gardless, are you literally this desperate to be right about something?
In my first response to you I clearly mentioned or implied I thought you were talking about zinc supplements.
You then come forward claiming no you only meant zinc foods.
Case closed. You used wording that could apply to zinc supplements or zinc containing foods. You meant one thing, I thought you meant another, you clarified, then I said that's fine.

No, I was talking about zinc foods because, once again, the context of my original post was that vegan diets did not have enough zinc foods. Fact is, I did not say ''supplements', therefore you wrongly assumed. Case closed. And you were too cowardly to simply ask me what I meant before assuming further like the idiot that you are.

our post read like something copy/pasted from a ZMA article. Yeah, I only read the post I responded to.
Little slave, the papers you posted agree with my points not yours.
Ejaculate volume is less following additional ejaculations. Zinc volume is correlated with ejaculate volume your own papers showed this.
Whether significant zinc is lost or not is irrelevant. you failed to show ejaculations deplete 1mg of zinc. you failed to show each ejaculation depletes 1mg of zinc. you failed to show each ejaculation depletes 1mg zinc regardless of ejaculate volume. You're desperate to be right about everything, it's pretty sad it's this difficult for you to just admit you said or did something wrong or not backed up.

No, the papers do not agree with your points. You are trying to use zinc depletion studies which caused the low semen volume to say that two masturbations lower semen volume to a large degree. I showed that as much as .7 mg of zinc is depleted with the average load, which is good enough, and close to 1mg. And if that is an average size load, it can easily be 1mg in a load that is larger.

So now show me evidence that a second ejaculation decrease zinc semen volume much more than the first, even when spaced out in the same day like probably a majority of people who ejaculate more than once in a day do.

I am still waiting for you to provide evidence for your claim. I have provided more evidence than you have.

Claiming a water soluble B vitamin is stored in the body more so than a mineral like zinc is a big claim.
Every mineral and vitamin is stored, and drawing on stored vitamin/mineral stores, irrespective of the type of vitamin or mineral, will cause issues. this is nothing unique to zinc. not consuming any vitamin/mineral, being depleted in any vitamin/mineral is a bad thing. you do not want to be drawing reserves from any vitamin/mineral.

I said B-12 stores will last longer before seeing the effects and that it will be noticed quicker with chronically low zinc levels, as the studies show. Why do you ignore the short time it took to drop zinc levels in the studies? You can't do drop B-12 levels that low that fast if B-12 stores are built up.

Your own papers proved my point here. You're making an absurdly illogical, huge claim and can't back it up. the smaller the ejaculate volume the less phosphorus, less calcium, less zinc, and less everything it would contain relative to a larger ejaculate volume. Your claim is as absurd as saying 8oz of beef contains the same amount of zinc as 4oz.

What papers proved your point? The ones you tried to say showed a link between ejaculation causing diminished semen volume zinc content when the paper explicitly show that it was the zinc depletion model that did it? Are you really that stupid?

Again, there are more variables than that, you simple minded internet person. Not everyone has the same sperm volume, and spacing the second ejaculation apart from the first may not cause a much smaller decrease in volume. You have not cited any papers to back that claim up.

And no one is denying that you make less ejaculate volume with chronic masturbations or ejaculations. I said that most healthy people ejaculate 1-3 times per day on average. And that within the first and second and possibly third ejaculation, there is no evidence that has been shown that shows zinc semen content to be largely diminished apart from one another. I am willing to say that sure, 3 or 4 or 5 ejaculations will decrease semen volume, especially if done back to back, but not that a second ejaculation will decrease semen volume/zinc if done within a 24 hour window. You are trying to say that if someone ejaculates say, in the morning, that their volume will be much less at the second ejaculation, even if done apart, later in the day. This is not always the case and you have not showed evidence of that. There could be a decrease in zinc that is very small in the second ejaculation, but it may not be far from the .7 mg or whatever of the first so it would still average out about the same too if that is the case, which doesn't disprove my initial point.

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The RDA has completely different values for nursing mothers, adult males, and growing kids. So the RDA obviously did, to some extent, differentiate between zinc intakes between men, women and kids. The RDA is meant to cover basic functions of the body. What do you think the 11mg of zinc in the RDA is meant for? What functions are those 11mg of zinc doing? You act like the first 11mg of zinc consumed in a day do nothing and you need to keep adding more and more zinc for basic reproductive or other functions.

More nonsensical gibberish and attempt at reasoning when you lack evidence. I do not care what you think the RDA considered, there is no evidence they considered men who ejaculate 1-3 times per day and you still have not provided evidence. So go get it. I am waiting for it.

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Did you not read what I said? The RDA for kids is 4mg, for nursing mothers 12mg, for adult males 11mg.
Obviously, they have differentiated zinc intakes between populations. According to some, the 11mg zinc intake is not optimal for most adult males. Which is fine, especially since the previous rda used to be 15mg, and the ideal intake could be 20mg or 25mg. Going above that, unless you are consuming adequate copper and iron you could begin to get hypothyroid or anemia symptoms. It shouldn't be an issue with zinc containing foods though.

No, originally you just said the RDA was that in response to me mentioning the adult RDA. So you clearly didn't know that information, then backtrack..

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How do you know they didn't factor in ejaculation when coming up with mens ejaculation? Obviously if the childrens RDA is 4mg and adult men RDA is 11mg, they have to some extent, factored in the fact that adult men need more zinc intake. If reproduction is a basic human function, you would think the 11mg rda would at least account for ejaculation to some extent? If you go with the previous RDA of 15mg for adult men, that's even better.

I said that there is no evidence that they factored in multiple ejaculations into the RDA need for men. Chris Masterjohn also says this. Therefore I assume it was not factored in unless proven otherwise. You are claiming they did without proving they did. You are making a claim that has not been backed up by evidence. My claim is that there is a lack of evidence, therefore it requires nothing to back it up since you cannot prove something doesn't exist. Again, more of your silly reasoning. I don't care what you think the RDA people should have done, there is no evidence they factored it in so prove it and put up or shut up.

 

[dukesbobby777]

View attachment 14918

I totalled 1.5g PUFA, 2.7g MUFA, 25.6g Saturated fat. Most of the MUFA was from coconut oil. White rice has very little fiber.

That’s very low protein intake, but I guess you were going by the higher carb filling in and allowing for lower amounts of protein intake per day? And those plant sources of the aminos would be lower in the inflammatory aminos. That post you made was a year ago. How are things going now? Still doing this approach? Temps/pulse/thyroid good?

From a Peat perspective the quality of that dietary protein wouldn’t be great, alongside the number of grams per day (assuming that’s what your diet was like each day).

 

[Barry]

That’s very low protein intake, but I guess you were going by the higher carb filling in and allowing for lower amounts of protein intake per day? And those plant sources of the aminos would be lower in the inflammatory aminos. That post you made was a year ago. How are things going now? Still doing this approach? Temps/pulse/thyroid good?

From a Peat perspective the quality of that dietary protein wouldn’t be great, alongside the number of grams per day (assuming that’s what your diet was like each day).

Wow I have changed a lot since then. Since January I have narrowed my diet down to skim milk, sugar, coffee, OJ, bananas, grapes and white rice. It totals around 2200 cals. Very high carb (85%), protein (14%, 64g), fat (1%). I end up with 1/2 a gram of pufa. I consume about 260g of sugar per day. It seems like a ridiculous amount, but I generally feel very good. The addition of 1600g of skim milk has increased my protein intake. There are shortcomings to this diet, but it is easy and I'm happy. Mentally I feel very sharp.

 

[dukesbobby777]

Wow I have changed a lot since then. Since January I have narrowed my diet down to skim milk, sugar, coffee, OJ, bananas, grapes and white rice. It totals around 2200 cals. Very high carb (85%), protein (14%, 64g), fat (1%). I end up with 1/2 a gram of pufa. I consume about 260g of sugar per day. It seems like a ridiculous amount, but I generally feel very good. The addition of 1600g of skim milk has increased my protein intake. There are shortcomings to this diet, but it is easy and I'm happy. Mentally I feel very sharp.

That sounds awesome. Must be quite cheap too. Grapes are one of the few fruits that my gut seems to tolerate. Cooked/stewed apple (with blueberries to sweeten further) is also good. I would tolerate the rice. The skimmed milk would provide lots of nutrition with its minerals. Bananas I could perhaps tolerate one or two per day. I might try it, it actually sounds quite appealing. Especially to get PUFA right down lol