Applying Peat Principles To Veganism: Incredible Results

[BigChad]

I dont think he is saying the other minerals arent important but zinc has a direct role in so many bodily processes you couldnt even begin to explain. You don't store zinc in significant quantities for later use. Stress can make you lose zinc, as well as other things can increase zinc requirements as Waremu already mentioned. You need zinc and B6 in order to make enzymes that build all proteins in the body. You need it to make other enzymes, hormones, neurotransmitters, muscles, organs, connective tissue... you need zinc for the immune system. You can actually get anemic with zinc deficiency since you need zinc and B6 to make blood cells as well. You need it for stomach acid production... Thats not even exhaustive.

It is incredibly valuable, that's why he called for zinc spaced throughout the day. Optimal zinc status means lots of zinc each meal to account for absorption rate and to make sure to get a little more zinc if you exercise, want muscle growth, or meet other conditions that need more zinc.

Protein intake helps boost absorption but I never heard of C helping, B6 maybe but you aren't going to get significantly higher zinc absorption beyond the norm. Deficiency state may also affect it.

150mg zinc a day for entire year doesn't make sense. Obesity could have easily beem caused by his low absorption(because of zinc antagonism) and intake of other minerals that would make him insulin resistant. You would never get such high zinc intake from natural foods while also not getting high intake of the other minerals.

Where do you get that zinc isnt stored in the body? I remember reading the body contains significant amounts, like grams or hundreds of mg.

With C i was mentioning it improves iron absorption.
The zinc deficiency anemia is a different type than iron or copper iirc.

True, i was under the impression he was talking about zinc supplementation. I agree with foods an overdose is unlikely, apparently you can eat lots of oysters daily and still not get a zinc overdose. Im unsure about muscle meat in high amounts since its high phosphorus and zinc, moderate iron and very low copper.
Regarding the obese person they had him stop zinc and start iron or copper supplemention (cant remember which) and within weeks he was improving and losing weight. That was zinc supplementation though. It makes sense to me, 150mg is a massive dose.
High zinc is also listed as a cause of peripheral neuropathy probably due to the copper or iron depletion

 

[BigChad]

Because 1) the thread topic is about zinc and 2) Zinc is very important. Just because the composition of semen includes calcium and phosphorus doesn't negate the fact that a large amount of zinc is used in a persons ejaculate. One is also getting plenty of calcium and phosphorus on a healthy diet so those things are being added back as well.




First of all, you felt instead of read. Pay attention to reading what I said more and 'feeling' less. I never mentioned ZMA or zinc supplementation. I recommend using food and not zinc supplements. There is no hype in stressing the importance of a nutrient.



This is a silly statement. Of course all minerals are important. No one said that all were not important. But not all minerals are equally easy to obtain via diet by just eating whatever you want. Some minerals are likely to be less absorbed or depleted more so than others and therefore, adherence to said mineral intake is important.



Was it supplemental zinc? It sounds like it was. In of that, there is a ton that could go wrong with taking such large doses of supplemental zinc. So of course there would be issues there. I do not recommend that. You're taking what I said and applying it to some idiot who took extreme amounts of supplemental zinc. It is silly to compare someone taking large amounts of supplemental zinc to my recommendations on getting more food based zinc.



Why would you say 'overdosing zinc?' We are not talking about 'overdosing' zinc. Also, that is highly subjective and up for debate. Many people have very low copper and high iron as well.

You were taking supplements..​

I am not concerned with what you think, unless you have evidence showing the opposite. That is what some of the research has shown. Show me any research stating that the amount of zinc gets smaller after the first ejaculation.




Never said to take 'lots of zinc' at once. Read before posting. Once again, I stressed to seperate your zinc across meals, and to get more than the RDA to make up for ejaculation, health or digestive issues, building muscle, and overall health. That is what I said.

​

No one said that bodybuilders would require only more zinc. If you are getting it from whole foods, you would get higher ratios with increased zinc.

One third of zinc absorbed per meal. Yes, fiber and anti-nutrients have an effect too. You just repeated what I said. Yes, the body has many minerals bound, but they being used for many biochemical actions. The bodies LBM will start to shrink if zinc is low.​

The thread title is not about zinc at all.

I never stated I didn't read your claims. Your claims, especially the part about losing 1mg zinc from ejaculation, read like something copy pasted off a zinc or zma supplement page. You need to do a better job of reading my post instead of getting angry at what I said.

You mentioned things like spacing zinc out and fine tuning zinc intake depending on exercise, sex, muscle etc. Combined with your other content, it sounded like you were saying to supplement zinc. But you aren't, so i agree, for the most part with whole foods you wouldn't overdose on any nutrient since its balanced.

You keep mentioning read before posting while making strawman arguments. You aren't reading the context Im responding to, rather you seem desperate to strawman me.

You stated zinc is poorly absorbed if you take a lot at once. My point was that's the same with every mineral. I shouldn't need to explain that honestly since the quote I responded to was self explanatory.

Each ejaculation after the first gets consecutively smaller. I don't think you're aware that the RDA is literally there to account for things like ejaculation in the first place. The 1mg zinc per ejaculation is something posted on reddit but doesn't seem to have any basis beyond guessing. You need to prove that a massive ejaculation has the same amount of zinc as a miniscule one, which you obviously can't. If we need to keep adding more zinc on top of the RDA for all these different functions, what is the purpose of the rda?

There are many minerals involved with hormones and building muscle though zinc may be the most important.

 

[redsun]

Where do you get that zinc isnt stored in the body? I remember reading the body contains significant amounts, like grams or hundreds of mg.

With C i was mentioning it improves iron absorption.
The zinc deficiency anemia is a different type than iron or copper iirc.

True, i was under the impression he was talking about zinc supplementation. I agree with foods an overdose is unlikely, apparently you can eat lots of oysters daily and still not get a zinc overdose. Im unsure about muscle meat in high amounts since its high phosphorus and zinc, moderate iron and very low copper.
Regarding the obese person they had him stop zinc and start iron or copper supplemention (cant remember which) and within weeks he was improving and losing weight. That was zinc supplementation though. It makes sense to me, 150mg is a massive dose.
High zinc is also listed as a cause of peripheral neuropathy probably due to the copper or iron depletion

"Zinc is present in all organs, tissues, fluids, and secretions in the body, but the majority of zinc (83%) is present in skeletal muscle and bone.4 When zinc intake is insufficient, levels within skeletal muscle, skin, and heart are maintained, while zinc levels in bone, liver, testes, and plasma decline. More than 100 specific enzymes require zinc for their catalytic function.2 The body is not able to store excess zinc, so continuous dietary intake is required."

Zinc

As soon as zinc drops beyond a certain point, your body starts taking it from your bone, liver, testes, and plasma. It doesnt store it for later use rather it will take zinc from other places to maintain zinc levels where they are absolutely critical(skin, muscle, and heart according to this site). Id imagine with time, the levels in vital tissues would drop as well in that case you get severe deficiency. Storing zinc would mean you have zinc available for use if needed, but taking zinc from the testes for example doesn't mean the testes were storing zinc, they need a high amount and the body will sacrifice sexual reproduction for survival which is not a good thing obviously.

Red meat is generally the easiest option since most people eat it. Less people eat seafood or dairy(of which you would need a lot of to get enough zinc) You can get copper from other places.

 

[Waremu]

The thread title is not about zinc at all.

I am talking about the threads topic about zinc. This thread has a few topics being discussed, and the one I am referring to is clearly about zinc. It was in relation to the possible problems with a vegan diet. It clearly was about zinc.

I never stated I didn't read your claims. Your claims, especially the part about losing 1mg zinc from ejaculation, read like something copy pasted off a zinc or zma supplement page. You need to do a better job of reading my post instead of getting angry at what I said.

You didn't have to state that you didn't read my post. It's obvious by virtue of the fact that you mentioned a number of things that I never discussed/said. It reads like something copy and pasted off a ZMA page to you because perhaps you read too many of those pages. Perhaps start by reading scientific papers instead:

Effects of dietary zinc depletion on seminal volume and zinc loss, serum testosterone concentrations, and sperm morphology in young men. - PubMed - NCBI

"Compared with when they were consuming 10.4 mg Zn/d, volunteers consuming 1.4 mg Zn/d exhibited decreased semen volumes (3.30 vs 2.24 mL) and serum testosterone concentrations (26.9 vs 21.9 nmol/L), and no change in seminal zinc concentrations. Compared with 10.4 mg Zn/d, treatments of 1.4, 2.5, and 3.4 mg Zn/d decreased the total semen zinc loss per ejaculate (6.29 vs 3.81, 4.68, and 5.03 mumols/ejaculate). Seminal loss accounted for 9% of total body zinc loss when 1.4 mg Zn/d was consumed. Seminal phosphorus concentrations were elevated during all four phases of zinc depletion (28.4 vs 32.9, 31.0, 34.2, and 33.6 mmol/L). The findings suggest that serum testosterone concentrations, seminal volume, and total seminal zinc loss per ejaculate are sensitive to short-term zinc depletion in young men."

Secondly, many of the claims put on supplement companies are actually true, (because the companies know the FDA would love to sue/fine/prosecute them into the stone age for the slightest false claim), but they are used deceptively or out of context to sell. Happens all the time. But it is a true statement regardless of how 'dumb' it sounds to you.

You mentioned things like spacing zinc out and fine tuning zinc intake depending on exercise, sex, muscle etc. Combined with your other content, it sounded like you were saying to supplement zinc. But you aren't, so i agree, for the most part with whole foods you wouldn't overdose on any nutrient since its balanced.

No, it didn't sound like I was talking about zinc supplementation. I explicitly stated in my posts that it was from food. The threads topic on zinc was in reference to problems with veganism, being that it lacks the quality zinc containing foods that animal foods provide, for the most part. So clearly my post was talking about zinc foods missing from a vegan diet and thus, zinc foods and not supplementation.

I clearly mentioned spacing 'zinc containing food' around across a few meals per day.

You keep mentioning read before posting while making strawman arguments. You aren't reading the context Im responding to, rather you seem desperate to strawman me.

There is no strawman. You are a boy who cries "strawman wolf' because you are simply corrected on something you said which was blatantly false. The only context to what you said is that you made up things which I never said.

You stated zinc is poorly absorbed if you take a lot at once. My point was that's the same with every mineral. I shouldn't need to explain that honestly since the quote I responded to was self explanatory.

Where did I state that zinc was poorly absorbed if you take it all at once? That isn't what I said. What I said is that your body can only absorb about a third of your zinc needs at a given time. That is not the same thing as poor absorption. Maximum absorption limits and poor absorption are not the same thing. Your body can only absorb a thirds worth of zinc, but, if it is from quality zinc containing food, the absorption will be just fine, assuming no digestive issues.

Each ejaculation after the first gets consecutively smaller.

You just repeated yourself twice now. I do not care what you say. Show me where in the scientific literature that the zinc content of your semen gets smaller. And no, ejaculation load doesn't necessarily get smaller because it is a second time because someone does not necessarily have to ejaculate immediately after their first time. They can, or they can do it early in the day and then after more food, later on at night. The two differences does not always yield a difference in ejaculate volume.

I don't think you're aware that the RDA is literally there to account for things like ejaculation in the first place.

Now you're talking more out of your backend. You just added that with no evidence. Show me evidence of where the RDA was set with multiple ejaculations in mind, because the scientific literature shows that even the RDA may not be enough as one not meet it once zinc losses from ejaculations are accounted for. The RDA takes into account zinc nutritional needs in relation basic human health, but that is about it. The RDA was set on the basis of preventing net loss of zinc from the body over a period of time, not on the basis of optimizing health. It only is there as means to provide a good starting point.

The 1mg zinc per ejaculation is something posted on reddit but doesn't seem to have any basis beyond guessing.

​

No, it was not just something posted on reddit. As shown above, there is research showing that such amount can be and is lost through ejaculation.

You need to prove that a massive ejaculation has the same amount of zinc as a miniscule one, which you obviously can't. If we need to keep adding more zinc on top of the RDA for all these different functions, what is the purpose of the rda?

No, Mr. entitled. You made the claim that zinc load decreases with more ejaculations. I did not. Therefore the burden of the proof is on you to prove that. You have not shown that, and until then, you have no evidence to back up your claim.

Secondly, even if that were the case, it wouldn't change the fact that a third of your RDA of zinc can be lost from your first ejaculation, and therefore, it is more than enough to add to or make a meaning contribution to having lower zinc levels.

Lastly, it appears that Dr. Chris Masterjohn also agrees with what I said about the RDA, as he has extensively done work on how the people who set the RDA came to the conclusions that they came to:

''The RDA was set on the basis of preventing net loss of zinc from the body over time, not on the basis of optimizing health. Nevertheless, it provides a good starting point.

The RDA begins at 3 milligrams per day (mg/d) in the first three years of life. Children four to eight years old need 4 mg/d. For children who are between 9 and 13 years old, this doubles to 8 mg/d.

After the age of 14, the RDA differs for males and females. For males, it increases to 11 mg/d and stays there throughout life. For females, it increases to 9 mg/d, drops to 8 mg/d when they turn 18. At any age, the RDA increases to 11 mg/d during pregnancy and 12 mg/d during lactation.

All of this variation is driven by two principles: 1) zinc needs are determined largely by lean body mass, 2) children who are growing and women who are providing zinc to a growing fetus or a nursing baby must supply extra zinc to meet the needs of growth.

Although not addressed in the RDA, males should probably add 3 mg to their requirement for each ejaculation.''

So again, as I mentioned, it appears that the RDA was set on the dietary needs of kids, nursing mothers, etc., but not on men who ejaculate regularly or want to build muscle.

There are many minerals involved with hormones and building muscle though zinc may be the most important.

Yes, and the world is also round.

 

[BigChad]

I am talking about the threads topic about zinc. This thread has a few topics being discussed, and the one I am referring to is clearly about zinc. It was in relation to the possible problems with a vegan diet. It clearly was about zinc.

Another strawman. So you can't read what i typed, can't read what you yourself are typing, and make another strawman argument.
You said the thread subject is zinc. That implies the main topic is zinc.
You did NOT say, zinc was being discussed earlier. Your strawman arguments aren't working. You're way too desperate to make people look bad when they disagree with you. That isn't a good look.

You didn't have to state that you didn't read my post. It's obvious by virtue of the fact that you mentioned a number of things that I never discussed/said. It reads like something copy and pasted off a ZMA page to you because perhaps you read too many of those pages. Perhaps start by reading scientific papers instead:

Effects of dietary zinc depletion on seminal volume and zinc loss, serum testosterone concentrations, and sperm morphology in young men. - PubMed - NCBI

"Compared with when they were consuming 10.4 mg Zn/d, volunteers consuming 1.4 mg Zn/d exhibited decreased semen volumes (3.30 vs 2.24 mL) and serum testosterone concentrations (26.9 vs 21.9 nmol/L), and no change in seminal zinc concentrations. Compared with 10.4 mg Zn/d, treatments of 1.4, 2.5, and 3.4 mg Zn/d decreased the total semen zinc loss per ejaculate (6.29 vs 3.81, 4.68, and 5.03 mumols/ejaculate). Seminal loss accounted for 9% of total body zinc loss when 1.4 mg Zn/d was consumed. Seminal phosphorus concentrations were elevated during all four phases of zinc depletion (28.4 vs 32.9, 31.0, 34.2, and 33.6 mmol/L). The findings suggest that serum testosterone concentrations, seminal volume, and total seminal zinc loss per ejaculate are sensitive to short-term zinc depletion in young men."

Secondly, many of the claims put on supplement companies are actually true, (because the companies know the FDA would love to sue/fine/prosecute them into the stone age for the slightest false claim), but they are used deceptively or out of context to sell. Happens all the time. But it is a true statement regardless of how 'dumb' it sounds to you.

More projection, more dishonesty, more strawman arguments. Its pretty sad you sit here talking about how literate people are all because you're angry someone destroyed your fraudulent claims on a mineral, then you proceed to literally put up information while making it abundantly clear you failed to read or understand what you posted.

Nowhere does the information you posted ever state or imply that ejaculation causes 1mg zinc loss per each one. This is a rumor you read online or on reddit and you are now spreading it as fact. I could be wrong, but either way, your info doesnt prove your claim at all and i remember this being brought up on reddit at one point and debunked.

No, it didn't sound like I was talking about zinc supplementation. I explicitly stated in my posts that it was from food. The threads topic on zinc was in reference to problems with veganism, being that it lacks the quality zinc containing foods that animal foods provide, for the most part. So clearly my post was talking about zinc foods missing from a vegan diet and thus, zinc foods and not supplementation.

I clearly mentioned spacing 'zinc containing food' around across a few meals per day.

I didn't read all your posts. I read the post i responded to. You mentioned spacing zinc throughout the day. Not zinc containing food. It isn't my problem you expect people to assume you are talking about zinc containing foods on a thread just because the topic is veganism. Hell, you're essentially claiming your answer to someone wanting to follow a vegan diet is to not do it.

There is no strawman. You are a boy who cries "strawman wolf' because you are simply corrected on something you said which was blatantly false. The only context to what you said is that you made up things which I never said.

Everything you've posted in response to me is a strawman and a desperate attempt to win an online argument to the point you'll flat out lie about what the other person said just to make yourself feel like you are winning. You then proceed to project again, referring to someone as "a boy", meanwhile your immaturity is crystal clear. You're a grown man acting like a boy throwing a fit because someone questioned your dubious claims.

Where did I state that zinc was poorly absorbed if you take it all at once? That isn't what I said. What I said is that your body can only absorb about a third of your zinc needs at a given time. That is not the same thing as poor absorption. Maximum absorption limits and poor absorption are not the same thing. Your body can only absorb a thirds worth of zinc, but, if it is from quality zinc containing food, the absorption will be just fine, assuming no digestive issues

You mentioned zinc isn't stored and you can't make up for days of not eating zinc, by stuffing a ton of zinc in one sitting. The same applies to iron, manganese, and probably every mineral out there.

just repeated yourself twice now. I do not care what you say. Show me where in the scientific literature that the zinc content of your semen gets smaller. And no, ejaculation load doesn't necessarily get smaller because it is a second time because someone does not necessarily have to ejaculate immediately after their first time. They can, or they can do it early in the day and then after more food, later on at night. The two differences does not always yield a difference in ejaculate volume.

You need to show me proof of your fraudulent claim of every ejaculation containing 1mg zinc regardless of the size or volume. Your ridiculous argument is akin to claiming 8oz ground beef contains the same amount of zinc as 1oz. Its completely illogical and you're so angry over being called out on it you're backpedaling. Every ejaculation does not contain 1mg zinc unless each ejaculation has the same volume. Period.

Now you're talking more out of your backend. You just added that with no evidence. Show me evidence of where the RDA was set with multiple ejaculations in mind, because the scientific literature shows that even the RDA may not be enough as one not meet it once zinc losses from ejaculations are accounted for. The RDA takes into account zinc nutritional needs in relation basic human health, but that is about it. The RDA was set on the basis of preventing net loss of zinc from the body over a period of time, not on the basis of optimizing health. It only is there as means to provide a good starting point.

Another dishonest strawman because you're desperate to be right about something. I never claimed the RDA was set with multiple ejaculations in mind. I said it was set with ejaculation in mind.

No, it was not just something posted on reddit. As shown above, there is research showing that such amount can be and is lost through ejaculation.

Your so called research you posted, does not mention anything like 1mg zinc being lost per ejaculation. That was your claim.

No, Mr. entitled. You made the claim that zinc load decreases with more ejaculations. I did not. Therefore the burden of the proof is on you to prove that. You have not shown that, and until then, you have no evidence to back up your claim.

Secondly, even if that were the case, it wouldn't change the fact that a third of your RDA of zinc can be lost from your first ejaculation, as the study above shows, and therefore, it is more than enough to add to or make a meaning contribution to having lower zinc levels.

I made the claim that the zinc content of an ejaculation varies depending on the volume of the ejaculation. You made a completely baseless, dishonest, delusional claim. Either provide proof of your fraudulent claim of each ejaculation causing 1mg loss of zinc, or be honest and admit you were wrong. Calling me mr entitled and "a boy" ain't gonna help you. All you're doing is proving how poorly your family raised you.

Now you're claiming a third of the rda, meaning 4mg of zinc, is lost from ejaculation? Yeah you're getting into borderline insane territory now. Your study you posted never mentioned a 1mg, or 3mg loss of zinc from ejaculation.

''The RDA was set on the basis of preventing net loss of zinc from the body over time, not on the basis of optimizing health. Nevertheless, it provides a good starting point.

The RDA begins at 3 milligrams per day (mg/d) in the first three years of life. Children four to eight years old need 4 mg/d. For children who are between 9 and 13 years old, this doubles to 8 mg/d.

After the age of 14, the RDA differs for males and females. For males, it increases to 11 mg/d and stays there throughout life. For females, it increases to 9 mg/d, drops to 8 mg/d when they turn 18. At any age, the RDA increases to 11 mg/d during pregnancy and 12 mg/d during lactation.

All of this variation is driven by two principles: 1) zinc needs are determined largely by lean body mass, 2) children who are growing and women who are providing zinc to a growing fetus or a nursing baby must supply extra zinc to meet the needs of growth.

Although not addressed in the RDA, males should probably add 3 mg to their requirement for each ejaculation.''

So again, as I mentioned, it appears that the RDA was set on the dietary needs of kids, nursing mothers, etc., but not on men who ejaculate regularly or want to build muscle.

The rda was set off the dietary of kids and nursing mothers? What?
So you accuse people of not reading but then draw absurd conclusions?

How is the rda "set off kids and nursing mothers" when the stuff you posted literally has different numbers listed for kids, for nursing mothers, and for adult males? Kids are 4mg zinc a day, adult males are 11mg daily and nursing mothers are 12mg daily.

For the record the rda was at 15mg a couple years back and was lowered to 11mg.

You're trying to go back and forth on this because you're desperate to appear right on something, its not a good look. Despite everything you've said i don't see your point at all. The rda is 11mg, the ideal intake for active adults is probably 20mg or so, and the safe upper limit of 40mg a day is still the safe upper limit.

Yes, and the world is also round.

Sounds like you just learned that today. That might be the only correct thing in your post. Congrats

 

[BigChad]

"Zinc is present in all organs, tissues, fluids, and secretions in the body, but the majority of zinc (83%) is present in skeletal muscle and bone.4 When zinc intake is insufficient, levels within skeletal muscle, skin, and heart are maintained, while zinc levels in bone, liver, testes, and plasma decline. More than 100 specific enzymes require zinc for their catalytic function.2 The body is not able to store excess zinc, so continuous dietary intake is required."

Zinc

As soon as zinc drops beyond a certain point, your body starts taking it from your bone, liver, testes, and plasma. It doesnt store it for later use rather it will take zinc from other places to maintain zinc levels where they are absolutely critical(skin, muscle, and heart according to this site). Id imagine with time, the levels in vital tissues would drop as well in that case you get severe deficiency. Storing zinc would mean you have zinc available for use if needed, but taking zinc from the testes for example doesn't mean the testes were storing zinc, they need a high amount and the body will sacrifice sexual reproduction for survival which is not a good thing obviously.

Red meat is generally the easiest option since most people eat it. Less people eat seafood or dairy(of which you would need a lot of to get enough zinc) You can get copper from other places.

Is any mineral or vitamin, besides fat soluble vitamins, safely stored for later use? I see your point about zinc being drawn from other places with insufficient intake, but doesn't the same apply to every vitamin and mineral basically? How is this phenomenon unique to zinc? Technically you are supposed to be consuming every vitamin and mineral on a daily basis besides perhaps fat solubles

 

[redsun]

Is any mineral or vitamin, besides fat soluble vitamins, safely stored for later use? I see your point about zinc being drawn from other places with insufficient intake, but doesn't the same apply to every vitamin and mineral basically? How is this phenomenon unique to zinc? Technically you are supposed to be consuming every vitamin and mineral on a daily basis besides perhaps fat solubles

Iron has ferritin. The liver can store a lot of copper. Calcium is purposefully stored in bones in such large quantities because it is so valuable. In times of inadequate calcium intake your body will take it from the bones so you don't die. The body is very good at holding onto potassium regardless of low intake. Phosphorus as well is similar to calcium. Those are just off the top of my head. Obviously inadequate intske of any mineral will cause problems eventually but some deficiencies happen quicker then others.

 

[BigChad]

Iron has ferritin. The liver can store a lot of copper. Calcium is purposefully stored in bones in such large quantities because it is so valuable. In times of inadequate calcium intake your body will take it from the bones so you don't die. The body is very good at holding onto potassium regardless of low intake. Phosphorus as well is similar to calcium. Those are just off the top of my head. Obviously inadequate intske of any mineral will cause problems eventually but some deficiencies happen quicker then others.

So it seems similar perhaps with exception of manganese and copper. If you dont consume enough of the minerals they will be drawn out from somewhere you don't want them coming from?
Ive heard even vitamin C you can go months before getting deficiency symptoms but its not optimal.

 

[Jennifer]

It's great you've got your health back on track from what sounds like a pretty bad place! I can assure you I'm not experiencing any of these deterioration like symptoms you describe, and in fact it's quite the opposite, completely thriving and feeling great, health has improved significantly in all areas. My body composition is great, i'm 5'11 and 85kg and feeling solid and strong. Back when I was eating a lot of animal proteins, meat, dairy and the like in combination with a Peat inspired high carb diet, I was carrying a lot more fat, particularly around the waste area. Now I'd say my body composition is optimal. My brother and a few of my friends are eating the same way and all experiencing similar results. Did you know about Peat back then when you were deteriorating? Perhaps you were eating high PUFA? Maybe you were avoiding eating any concentrated forms of refined sugar? Maybe not eating any coconut oil, which balances out the fatty acid ratio with more saturation.. Also, I think attempting to eat a lot of raw food can cause issues with digestion and the fibre thing as you describe, I'm finding cooking food well eliminates these issues with fibre, and things like drinking lots of juice rather than trying to eat heaps of fruit whole.. Also lots of vegans supplement with things like iron, flaxseed oil and the like, which can obviously cause all sorts of problems... Just some thoughts.

Thanks! :) It took a while but I'm a million times better now. Just in case there's any confusion, I wasn't meaning to imply my spine collapsed because of plant-based. I was a healthy eater, even by Peaty standards, but mysteriously began dropping weight prior to going vegan — I'm normally 45kg and was down to 31kg at my lowest.

In an attempt to heal, I tried the high carb WF PB diet and after struggling, transitioned to the 80/10/10 diet (fruit and greens) and was up to 37kg when I fractured. I didn't know about Ray then, but I'm French and was raised on saturated fat and it's still my preferred fat source — for over a decade now it has been young coconut meat.

I believe you, your brother and your friends are doing well on the diet. Plenty do. The ones I was referring to weren't raw and ate high carb WF PB too so likely low in PUFAs by default because they weren't consuming oils or high fat. Like me, they had digestive issues that got progressively worse as time went on and resolved after changing their diet.

Anyhow, I'm happy you're doing so well on the diet and wish I had. I'm still mostly plant-based, averaging over 2000 calories daily from fruit, but needed protein and couldn't handle rough fiber or starch so my choice was either animal protein or tofu. I figured it was probably best I go with the main protein source I ate as a child — shellfish.

 

[Waremu]

Another strawman. So you can't read what i typed, can't read what you yourself are typing, and make another strawman argument.
You said the thread subject is zinc. That implies the main topic is zinc.
You did NOT say, zinc was being discussed earlier. Your strawman arguments aren't working. You're way too desperate to make people look bad when they disagree with you. That isn't a good look.

It almost sounds like you're backwards or something, because you keep repeating yourself. I already answered this. The threads post topic was about zinc. My post on the thread = threads post topic. If you look at my first comment, you can clearly see that it was in reference to zinc foods and veganism. The only one who sounds stupid here is you.

More projection, more dishonesty, more strawman arguments. Its pretty sad you sit here talking about how literate people are all because you're angry someone destroyed your fraudulent claims on a mineral, then you proceed to literally put up information while making it abundantly clear you failed to read or understand what you posted.

There were no 'fraudulent claims' on a mineral. I simply stated what the evidence I have seen says and said if you have contrary information, show it. You have not done so. No, I did not fail to read it. It was a zinc depletion study, and the low zinc intake impacted semen.

Nowhere does the information you posted ever state or imply that ejaculation causes 1mg zinc loss per each one. This is a rumor you read online or on reddit and you are now spreading it as fact. I could be wrong, but either way, your info doesnt prove your claim at all and i remember this being brought up on reddit at one point and debunked.

I posted two other links to that but it only showed one. So I will add those in again. But the study is a good zinc depletion model showing the effects of dietary zinc depletion on seminal volume, and testosterone concentrations, etc., in young men. And yes, it shows seminal zinc loss for men who consume low zinc:

''Seminal loss accounted for 9% of total body zinc loss when 1.4 mg Zn/d was consumed. Seminal phosphorus concentrations were elevated during all four phases of zinc depletion (28.4 vs 32.9, 31.0, 34.2, and 33.6 mmol/L).''

But...

"......volunteers consuming 1.4 mg Zn/d exhibited decreased semen volumes (3.30 vs 2.24 mL) and serum testosterone concentrations (26.9 vs 21.9 nmol/L), and no change in seminal zinc concentrations."

To a certain point, very low levels of zinc seem to cause a drop in semen volumes, but notice that despite less semen volumes, the seminal zinc concentrations had no change. This refutes your claim that less semen volume means less seminal zinc concentrations.


So, this is evidence that your claim that the second and third and so on ejaculation will have less semen and thus is invalid. This is likely a factor of sperm motility.

Now the other two papers:

Zinc Homeostasis in Humans

Other sources of zinc loss:

Additional zinc is lost daily in integumental losses (i.e., sweat and other surface losses), seminal emissions, menstrual losses and hair and nail growth. Whole body surface losses average ∼7 μmol/d when zinc intake averages ∼130 μmol/d (Milne et al. 1983). When zinc intakes were reduced to 55 μmol/d, surface losses declined by ∼50%. Surface losses also tended to rise with high zinc intakes (518 μmol/d). These adjustments in surface losses occurred even though plasma zinc remained within the normal range. It is not known how this adjustment in integumental zinc losses is made with changes in intake.

Semen is rich in zinc and can represent a significant source of zinc loss with frequent ejaculations. One ejaculation contains ∼ 9 μmol zinc. Semen zinc losses decline with zinc depletion; severe zinc depletion caused a 50% decrease in the amount of zinc per ejaculum (Baer and King 1984). This reduction in semen zinc seems to be due to a decrease in semen volume rather than a change in the concentration of zinc in the semen (Hunt and Johnson 1990).

Typical hair and nail growth account for only 0.5 μmol zinc loss/d (Baer and King 1984).

Now notice, here it does mention that semen zinc reduction can be due to the decrease in semen volume, but seems to only happen to a certain point, like it says here, hence a "severe zinc depletion." So it seems that if you eat low amounts of zinc and ejaculate a lot, you lose plenty of zinc, and the correlation between semen volume and concentration varies, up until severe zinc depletion, where volume is diminished and zinc concentration, in contrast to the other paper which seems to show the opposite. But one can have less zinc if total volume is diminished and concentration is maintained for other reasons. Zinc as well as other minerals impacts sperm motility, etc.

From the Hunt and Johnson 1990) paper:

Tissue zinc levels and zinc excretion during experimental zinc depletion in young men. - PubMed - NCBI

''Six healthy young men participated in a confined zinc depletion-repletion study which lasted 10 to 11 wk. The depletion period varied from 4 to 9 wk during which the subjects consumed a semipurified formula diet supplying 0.28 mg zinc/day. During a 1-wk initial baseline period, 15.7 mg of zinc as ZnSO4 were fed; 6.0, 23.2, or 46.3 mg of zinc were given during a brief repletion period for three of the men. Plasma, whole blood, urinary, fecal, and seminal zinc decreased significantly by the end of the depletion period. Erythrocyte, saliva, and hair zinc did not change. Plasma and urinary zinc levels were highly correlated when urinary zinc was 150 micrograms/day or more. In five of six subjects a drop in urinary zinc to below 150 micrograms/day was noted before a decrease in plasma zinc to less than 70 micrograms/100 g, indicating that urinary zinc responds more rapidly than plasma zinc to dietary changes and may be useful for evaluating zinc nutriture. The endogenous zinc loss averaged 2.2 mg/day; addition of the loss occasioned by one seminal emission would bring the total to 2.8 mg/day.''

So during this zinc depletion experiment, just one seminal emission caused a increased loss of .6 mg of zinc, which is about 5% of your RDA of zinc (11% RDA for adult male). That means, in this experiment, it would seem that one would want to eat a couple mg extra of zinc if they lose .6mg from ejaculation.

And, this may not decrease if one ejaculates a second time or third time, as mentioned above as well. It seems that if you ejaculate 2-3 times per day like most young healthy men do, then you are easily losing 10-15% of your zinc from that alone, up to the point where your body becomes so depleted that semen volume and zinc concentration suffers, and then you lose less zinc, but only because your body is so depleted of zinc. Now throw in a low zinc diet and eating it with anti-nutrients like most people do and you have a recipe for zinc deficiency.

I didn't read all your posts. I read the post i responded to. You mentioned spacing zinc throughout the day. Not zinc containing food. It isn't my problem you expect people to assume you are talking about zinc containing foods on a thread just because the topic is veganism. Hell, you're essentially claiming your answer to someone wanting to follow a vegan diet is to not do it.

Bull. And the post you responded to was clearly talking about food. What my post said:

"Similar issue with zinc as well, but much worse due to the shorter life. One can't eat their full RDA of zinc in one sitting and it last them all day. So ideally, eating small amounts of zinc with each meal probably is one of the better ways to manage and maintain a healthy zinc status. A person can only consume enough zinc at a meal to last them two-thirds of their day. Some people avoid dairy and most zinc foods and think if they just have one oyster a day in one sitting or a few oysters once a week they are fine, but the body can't build up zinc and use it later like it can with B-12. The zinc issue is then further exacerbated if the person is masturbating/having sex 2-3 times per day or lactating, or trying to add muscle.''

I said zinc is to be spaced among meals with food. Some people can't just have one of these zinc food meals like oysters and think they are good for the day. The post was clearly talking about food. If I was talking about zinc supplement, I would have said SUPPLEMENT. But I did not.

I continued to follow up my following post where I again mentioned zinc foods:

''.. Women who lactate and are pregnant also greater zinc demands. Menstruation only causes very small losses in zinc. So the smart thing to do would to try to spread your zinc intake throughout the day among a few small meals, or at the very least 3 main meals and 1-2 snacks. If you are trying to put on muscle or ejaculate often, try to have maximum amount of zinc intake among 4-6 small meals/snacks daily from zinc containing foods.''

In both of my first posts, it was clear that food was in view. You're not even a good liar.

Everything you've posted in response to me is a strawman and a desperate attempt to win an online argument to the point you'll flat out lie about what the other person said just to make yourself feel like you are winning. You then proceed to project again, referring to someone as "a boy", meanwhile your immaturity is crystal clear. You're a grown man acting like a boy throwing a fit because someone questioned your dubious claims.

Nope. You started attacking me, telling me I was pumping out info ZMA supplement companies say. Without even reading all my posts, by your own admission. You then make a claim and then tell me to prove it when you made the claim. Who is the little boy here? It surely is you, little man. I backed up what I said with 4 papers now, showing that 1) your claim that ejaculate volume is less following more ejaculations and thus less zinc, when it has been observed that this is not always the case, and 2) that a decent amount of zinc can be lost, which may appear to be in line with or maybe even slightly more than what some like Masterjohn has said.

You mentioned zinc isn't stored and you can't make up for days of not eating zinc, by stuffing a ton of zinc in one sitting. The same applies to iron, manganese, and probably every mineral out there.

No, I said that it isn't stored the way B12 is. It is stored mostly in the muscles, but most people ideally do not want to be pulling zinc out of muscle. That is likely catabolic. It is the same way vegans say you do not need protein because it is stored in your muscles. Well, yeah...but you do not want to be breaking down more muscle for protein for obvious reasons. Just because something is 'stored' does not mean pulling from that reserve is always a good thing. B12 can be used if stored for a few days and as long as more B12 is added back, it doesn't seem to be an issue. However, drawing down on zinc muscle stores does seem to lead to issues, as mentioned in the papers. Lower zinc levels, drawing it from LBM, causes LMB to shrink.

You need to show me proof of your fraudulent claim of every ejaculation containing 1mg zinc regardless of the size or volume. Your ridiculous argument is akin to claiming 8oz ground beef contains the same amount of zinc as 1oz. Its completely illogical and you're so angry over being called out on it you're backpedaling. Every ejaculation does not contain 1mg zinc unless each ejaculation has the same volume. Period.

I already did in the paper above. You clearly did not read it. Less ejaculation volume does not always mean less zinc, once again, as shown above. But the papers I showed seem to suggest around 1mg as a good average.

Another dishonest strawman because you're desperate to be right about something. I never claimed the RDA was set with multiple ejaculations in mind. I said it was set with ejaculation in mind.

Samantics now. "I did not say ejaculations, I said one ejaculation." Okay, where is evidence to your claim? You have none. You are making the unsubiated claims here, little boy.

Your so called research you posted, does not mention anything like 1mg zinc being lost per ejaculation. That was your claim.

I said it appears that as much as 1mg is lost, as I was going from memory, from some papers I read, but the evidence suggests it could be near that. I'm still going to look for the papers that show it. Interestingly, Dr. Masterjohn also says about 1mg, so it is likely he has read the same papers. But if he says it, it is also likely true that my memory is on point because he shows evidence for everything he says. He has always been good at citing any research to back up his ideas. I'll likely ask him to forward me some of the papers he has to see if the are the same ones, but regardless, the papers I showed still validate that fairly considerable amounts of zinc can be lost by ejaculating, adding to a deficiency if zinc intake is low and not spread out.

I made the claim that the zinc content of an ejaculation varies depending on the volume of the ejaculation. You made a completely baseless, dishonest, delusional claim. Either provide proof of your fraudulent claim of each ejaculation causing 1mg loss of zinc, or be honest and admit you were wrong. Calling me mr entitled and "a boy" ain't gonna help you. All you're doing is proving how poorly your family raised you.

Yes, and you 1) never backed up the claim, and 2), evidence suggests that also is not an accurate claim. What I said was not baseless. I provided evidence showing that volume and zinc content are not always correlated, and that you do indeed lose a fair amount of zinc ejaculating. I called you entitled because after making your claim without providing evidence, you then demand me to show evidence of your unsubstaniated claim. If that isn't entitlement, then the sky is not blue.

Now you're claiming a third of the rda, meaning 4mg of zinc, is lost from ejaculation? Yeah you're getting into borderline insane territory now. Your study you posted never mentioned a 1mg, or 3mg loss of zinc from ejaculation.

That was a typo. What I meant is that, assuming that 1mg of zinc is lost from your first ejaculation, that means that from your first ejaculation, you probably have to make up for about a third of your daily zinc from food extra(3 mg), because a third of the RDA is about 3.6 mg of zinc, so roughly, it is almost a third. The RDA in the US is about 11mg for boys 14 and older. So a third of that is about 3.6. And to absorb around 1 mg lost in semen, you probably would do best to eat about 3 mg of zinc, because of absorption, etc. Chris Masterjohn and a few others have agreed with this general rule.

Now, from the studies posted, it appears that the worse the zinc deficiency, within a range, the worse the zinc lost via ejaculation up to a certain point, then zinc diminishes. Again, quote from the paper above, mentioning that in severe zinc depletion, a 50% decrease in the amount of zinc per ejaculum is observed:

Semen is rich in zinc and can represent a significant source of zinc loss with frequent ejaculations. One ejaculation contains ∼ 9 μmol zinc. Semen zinc losses decline with zinc depletion; severe zinc depletion caused a 50% decrease in the amount of zinc per ejaculum (Baer and King 1984). This reduction in semen zinc seems to be due to a decrease in semen volume rather than a change in the concentration of zinc in the semen (Hunt and Johnson 1990).​

Again, the study I showed about .6 mg, it seems in average adults, it appears. But the worse the zinc deficiency, the more may be lost, up to a certain point. 9umol of zinc I believe is roughly within the neighborhood of 1.1 mg of zinc. I know that 22 μmol = 2.8 mg, and 11umol = about 1.4 mg. So it is somewhere around ther I think. So this paper claims that one ejaculation has about that amount of zinc, which would mean that you have lost that amount, around 1mg, give or take a few .1's. Notice also, in this paper that they note the differences between semen volume and concentration of zinc as well. Both impact semen zinc status. It seems that semen zinc drops only once you reach a baseline of zinc deficiency. Which makes sense because you can only lose so much before it affects semen zinc content.

The rda was set off the dietary of kids and nursing mothers? What?
So you accuse people of not reading but then draw absurd conclusions?

The RDA considered the zinc needs of nursing mothers (they need more zinc) and growing kids. How is that absurd? They did well in considering that, but they seemed to not have considered male ejaculation. You said they did, but you show no such evidence.

How is the rda "set off kids and nursing mothers" when the stuff you posted literally has different numbers listed for kids, for nursing mothers, and for adult males? Kids are 4mg zinc a day, adult males are 11mg daily and nursing mothers are 12mg daily.

You don't make any sense here. How is it weird that they considered kids and moms for zinc intake and use? You said above the RDA is 4mg, now you say it is 11mg...

For the record the rda was at 15mg a couple years back and was lowered to 11mg.

So?​

You're trying to go back and forth on this because you're desperate to appear right on something, its not a good look. Despite everything you've said i don't see your point at all. The rda is 11mg, the ideal intake for active adults is probably 20mg or so, and the safe upper limit of 40mg a day is still the safe upper limit. Sounds like you just learned that today. That might be the only correct thing in your post. Congrats

No, I have remained consistant in what I said. I said nothing about the RDA. I only mentioned that the amount for zinc intake set by the RDA people factored in the zinc needs of kids and mothers and mentioned it in relation to total intake conversions. You for some reason are arguing about the RDA for kids vs moms. That has nothing to do with them leaving men out of the equation when it comes to zinc loss via ejaculation.

You seem to not understand what I said, and then make things up along the way.

 

[Peaterpeater]

I believe Ray Peat mentioned in one of his podcasts that people with high bacteria count in the stomach tend to have high B12 levels and that high b12 can sometimes be a marker for cancer. Maybe your b12 is coming from the bacteria thriving in your stomach due to all the indigestible plant fibers.

 

[Ritchie]

I believe Ray Peat mentioned in one of his podcasts that people with high bacteria count in the stomach tend to have high B12 levels and that high b12 can sometimes be a marker for cancer. Maybe your b12 is coming from the bacteria thriving in your stomach due to all the indigestible plant fibers.

You don't think that it could be that i'm eating a well rounded and highly nutritious diet that my body is thriving on, hence good levels of B12? Because that's definitely what it feels and looks like to me, based on metabolism markers like temps and heart rate, labs are great, digestion is on point, energy high, low stress hormones and feeling calm, sleeping well.. I mean all the health markers are good so that proposition sounds like a bit of a stretch. Cognitive bias can be funny, just a guess but if my B12 labs were low you'd probably be saying it's because i'm not eating meat/dairy and all the fibre/anti-nutrients from a plant based diet is interfering with my ability to absorb/process B12 from things like oysters or even supplementation... Know what I mean? But hey, I'm open to it so if there's a way to test this hypothesis you're putting forward I'd love to hear it and I'll follow it up and provide feedback..

 

[BigChad]

You don't think that it could be that i'm eating a well rounded and highly nutritious diet that my body is thriving on, hence good levels of B12? Because that's definitely what it feels and looks like to me, based on metabolism markers like temps and heart rate, labs are great, digestion is on point, energy high, low stress hormones and feeling calm, sleeping well.. I mean all the health markers are good so that proposition sounds like a bit of a stretch. Cognitive bias can be funny, just a guess but if my B12 labs were low you'd probably be saying it's because i'm not eating meat/dairy and all the fibre/anti-nutrients from a plant based diet is interfering with my ability to absorb/process B12 from things like oysters or even supplementation... Know what I mean? But hey, I'm open to it so if there's a way to test this hypothesis you're putting forward I'd love to hear it and I'll follow it up and provide feedback..

You dont eat any b12 besides the mussels or oysters on a monthly basis right? I don't think eating a high dose b12 once or twice monthly would correct a deficiency. It could be possible that your high folate intake is masking the b12 deficiency. They have some similar functions in the body so you may not feel anything wrong. I'm not sure which blood tests would be best for b12.

 

[ExCarniv]

I believe Ray Peat mentioned in one of his podcasts that people with high bacteria count in the stomach tend to have high B12 levels and that high b12 can sometimes be a marker for cancer. Maybe your b12 is coming from the bacteria thriving in your stomach due to all the indigestible plant fibers.

R.I.P Vegans.

 

[tap1on]

Sounds very interesting.
I was vegan for 8 months and I felt really good on it but I lose a bunch of weight as I wasn't planning super well and skipped meals sometimes.
What would a normal day of eating look like for you?

 

[Peaterpeater]

I’m really glad you are feeling well and hopefully you will continue to feel well for decades.....the day you start to feel unwell (it is very subtle and gradual) then you’ll know what to do....

How old are you, btw?

 

[Ritchie]

You dont eat any b12 besides the mussels or oysters on a monthly basis right? I don't think eating a high dose b12 once or twice monthly would correct a deficiency. It could be possible that your high folate intake is masking the b12 deficiency. They have some similar functions in the body so you may not feel anything wrong. I'm not sure which blood tests would be best for b12.

Yeah I eat a dozen or so raw oysters about every 3 weeks, freshly shucked from the market (although I may increase this to once a week or fortnight) and I eat some mussels in that time as well. Also I eat at my brother's a couple of nights a week and they use nutritional yeast in their cooking a lot so that may contribute more B12. I think that's probably enough dietary source to provide sufficient amounts, particularly to reflect good levels in my labs if I am absorbing it well (which appears to be the case).

 

[Ritchie]

I’m really glad you are feeling well and hopefully you will continue to feel well for decades.....the day you start to feel unwell (it is very subtle and gradual) then you’ll know what to do....

How old are you, btw?

Thanks, yeah I'm quite conscious and aware of my health and wellbeing and if something's off I pick up on it pretty quickly.. That's part of what led me to a plant based diet from a more traditional Peat style way of eating. I'm 40.

 

[Light]

Hi @Ritchie ,
First of all, thanks alot for starting this thread, I'm always leaning towards veganism since eating animal products makes me queasy.
A few weeks ago I figured I'll just make myself eat seafood for a few weeks until I get used to it, but ended up staying in bed all day and almost fasting (exept some dark chocolate I keep next to the bed) rather than have eggs with crab meat for breakfast.
So i'm very happy to see you can do well on an almost vegan diet.

I've also seen a lot of research done showing that this concern of anti nutrients is completely alleviated when the food in question is prepared and cooked properly, which is also reflecting my experience.

Could you be more specific in what you mean by "cooked properly"?

A while ago I looked up a way to improve the bioavailability of plant protein, and found one experiment with rats that finally solved the problem by giving them some casein.
Maybe being mostly plant based with a little milk/eggs/seafood is a good answer.

Also I was surprised to see you're eating legumes because of the pro estrogenic effects they might have,
Haidut mentioned in one podcast that pregnant sheep would intuitively stop eating the leaves of legume plants because it causes them to have spontaneous miscarriages, that worries me above the "anti nutrient" claims.
Do you have any experience with that? Do you supplement with progesterone/pregnenolone?

 

[Light]

I'm noticing the same. My only problem with vegan tho is I started to get too low protein and other problems. Also, starches have their own problems I found. Additionally, many starches are actually even higher in cystein/tryptophan than meat on a per gram protein basis. That said, I've never been able to get better waking temps than I was eating vegan. I also couldn't lose weight though on vegan, and that's a problem since I still have lots of weight to lose.

This is almost identical to the issues I have with plant based -
Hard to get enough protein, belly swallen even though BMs are better than ever - I think from starches, can't lose weight.
On the up side, after a few months of veganism I had a lift in depression, I guess due to lower inflammation.
If you do find a way to solve these issues while on a mostly vegan diet please share it.
I've joined this forum about a year ago, and I still haven't figured out a diet i'm happy with.