Appetite/ I Have Endless Hunger, What To Do?

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Parasites are no joke. I used to have some type of worm in my intestines and I think that when they move, they irritate the intestines, because, when it was nighttime, I would get these huge surges of anxiety and sadness that were horrible. Sometimes I would get hungry even though I was eating my usual amount of calories(3000 per day). Flowers of sulphur worked immediately, but after a few weeks, the little worms would return. That went on for a few months, until I went to the supermarket one day and I noticed I was really craving papayas. I decided to buy a few of them and I probably ate almost a kilo of them for a few days( without the skin or the seeds). My bowel movements during these days were huge. After doing this for 3 or 4 days, my papaya cravings were totally gone. Also, that strange rumbling in my belly( which is one of the signs that I may have a parasite) went away too. Today, 2 months after my papaya feast, my gut still seems to be free of parasites. If I were to recommend a treatment to someone who may have parasites, it would be to use some sulphur combined with lots of papaya for a few days in a row.
 
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danishispsychic

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i agree on the starch thing. if you switch over to actual sugar instead of starch and fruit, you might feel different? for me, a big coffee with like 1/2 milk 1/2 coffe and a couple shots of espresso added with a LOT of sugar and 2 scoops of gelatin turns my appetite off for like the whole day almost.
 
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danishispsychic

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I doubt that... and i generally dont belive in the worms and parasites theory... its the anti candida story and I was ,,a victim" of those lies yeara ago... still you never know, it could be that... so my hunger starts with eating and its way before it gets to the darm or where those worms should be... there is also never anythin in my stool... if you have worms you should see them, its a worm not a molecule...
do a couple strong coffee enemas and report back that you did not see anything worm like = ascaris live on the walls of the intestine . good times.
 

sunraiser

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If you don't have luck with any of the suggestions then you could try eating some wholegrain sourdough (rye toast with butter/jam is amazing) and wholegrain pasta - if you are able to enjoy them, that is.

It's often said endless hunger is a microbiome issue and perhaps a few weeks of non refined starch could really help.

It's anecdotal but I've relatively consistently included whole grains and my appetite for starches is normal and enjoyable (even refined ones).

There's also the obvious flag of insulin resistance, so juice is generally a really bad idea. Whole fruit is much better.

Cutting out juice (presuming you drink a lot of it) could show big changes alone. That's my experience., anyway.
 
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Dino D

Dino D

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Thx, I will update you, and I will implement what you suggested...
 

Vinny

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@Dino D
Do PUFA depletion, it can greatly reduce this endless hunger. Check if you are MTHFR mutation carrier it can cause NAFLD. MTHFR/NAFLD issue can greatly diminish glycogen storing capacity of your liver. This test could be kinda expensive so you can just supplement choline and betaine or TMG to see if it helps. This is what helped me a lot. Still cant conquer my insomnia but choline/betaine/caffeine seem to be helpfull and I see huge improvements.

@methylenwhite, Could you elaborate more on that?
I`m asking, because, according to doctors and several check ups, I shouldn`t have any problems with my liver, but I feel like my glycogen storing capacity have always been miserable... So, in case I`m MTHFR mutation carrier, and took some choline and betaine (how much?) then what should I feel/happen? What difference would make?
And what do NAFLD and TMG stand for?
 

Douglas Ek

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The only change from b vitamins for me is yellow pee and more apetite...

I used few cheap ones...
Now i have gentle iron from solgar, i think any decent brand is ok...
Iron was a life saver for me 3 years ago... i had super intense tinitus and without going so deep into nutrition like here on this forum i found on a youtube video with robot voice that it could be iron, and abracadabra after one weak of taking iron it got a lot better, after one month i was super easy on my feat, tinitus almost 0... now i dont take iron and the tinnitus is always there but not that strong like 3 years before... i dont take iron anymore for the last 2 years, sometimes i take it just for a weak... i think it does not affect tinitus as good as before or maybe i just need a bit more time... iron helps with libido, condition, erection, bloating, air hunger and sleep and everything, but all of my blood test are super great every time, thats why i back off from taking lot of iron... maybe its more about copper but i dont notice improvements from eating more copper rich foods... but also i never ate liver consistently...

Interesting, if iron supplements help, maybe you are actually deficient? How do you know you're not low, what are your ferritin levels? Paging @Douglas Ek ! It seems douglas found that for the same ferritin level, some people may have deficiency symptoms but take that same ferritin level to someone else they may feel toxicity symptoms.

White noise is very effective. I always run a box fan near me even in winter, just for the white noise.

Not eating makes it very hard for me to sleep lol.

I definitely think minerals play a part. As I write this, I'm finishing off my grass fed beef and feel almost 100% alert and normal. Beef is loaded with bunches of glorious minerals, yes, including Iron.

I think this may be why I can't tolerate caffeine. Coffee can deplete minerals so if you're already low that's problematic.

Supplement with retinol and copper for ceruloplasmin aka ferroxidase to utilize iron better
Induction of ceruloplasmin synthesis by retinoic acid in rats: influence of dietary copper and vitamin A status. - PubMed - NCBI
"When vitamin A-deficient rats were repleted with 13-cis retinoic acid for 3 or 5 d, both the ceruloplasmin activity and synthesis were significantly stimulated when compared to the nonrepleted, deficient rats. Therefore, the dietary components, copper and vitamin A, play an important role in the regulation of plasma ceruloplasmin levels."

"In copper-deficient rats, the ceruloplasmin activity did not increase in response to retinoic acid unless copper was also given to these rats 8 h after retinoic acid."

Boron increases ceruloplasmin production and copper utilization probably why it's good for arthritis
Biochemical and physiologic consequences of boron deprivation in humans. - PubMed - NCBI
"This experiment found higher erythrocyte superoxide dismutase, serum enzymatic ceruloplasmin, and plasma copper during boron repletion than boron depletion."

Magnesium increases transferrin binding which is good.
Magnesium potentiation of iron-transferrin binding. - PubMed - NCBI
In the absence of magnesium the amount of iron required to achieve 50 percent saturation of the binding sites was 1.6 x 10(-4) M, whereas when magnesium was added, only about one-third as much iron (0.54 x 10(-4) M) was required."

Silica aka the mineral silicon also increases copper utilization and ceruloplasmin production. Probably why silica is known for boosting hair, skin and nail strength just like copper.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/095528639090086Z
"While dietary silicon concentrations of 135, 270, and 540 mg/kg diet were all effective in increasing aortic elastin in the copper-adequate rats, only 540 mg silicon/kg diet increased aortic elastin in the copper-deficient rats. These data indicate that some of the metabolic effects attributed to silicon may be manifested through a silicon-facilitated increase in copper utilization."

The human equivalent dose of silica is about 70mg. You can easily find a horse tail supplement which is a plant know for high bioavailable silica with 50mg, 100mg and 200mg silica in it.

In my opinion, before resorting to taking iron supplements I would try these supplements instead. I had quite profound improvements in my health by using these combined.

A protocol would be the following:

- 2-4mg Copper
- 3mg Boron
- 10k-20k retinol
- 50-100mg silica
- 500mg magnesium

Also ingesting beef liver high in all these nutrients and co-factors like B-vitamins is a given. Biotin and riboflavin are essential for copper utilization and ceruloplasmin production as well.

I believe a ceruloplasmin deficiency is way more common especially today with these high zinc protocols and supplemental vitamin D which both depletes copper and liver retinol levels. vitamin D also depletes magnesium. Boron, on the other hand, helps the body hold on to magnesium it also increases active vitamin D by 30% and lowers PTH by depositing and lowering its secretion of hormones. Boron has many great effects like boosting testosterone and DHT. People are scared that it has been shown to increase estrogen. But I really believe they are just looking at one piece of the picture. Obviously, you would get higher estrogen levels if your testosterone was boosted in the first place as estrogen synthesis is dependent on testosterone.
It's just non-sense and people need to look at the bigger picture of health and it's impact. Boron is an essential nutrient and probably most people are deficient since our soils today are so heavily depleted compared to our ancestors soil.
 
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tara

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It's just non-sense and people need to look at the bigger picture of health and it's impact. Boron is an essential nutrient and probably most people are deficient since our soils today are so heavily depleted compared to our ancestors soil.
I know our soils are heavily depleted, but I'm also aware that boron is a limiter for plant growth. AIUI, in deficiency, they either grow misshapen or in more severe deficiency they don't grow. So I think there must be at least some boron in the plants we eat (aside from highly refined stuff like refined sucrose or HFCS)? I speculate that this may be why Peat has not generally recommended supplementing it?
 

Douglas Ek

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I know our soils are heavily depleted, but I'm also aware that boron is a limiter for plant growth. AIUI, in deficiency, they either grow misshapen or in more severe deficiency they don't grow. So I think there must be at least some boron in the plants we eat (aside from highly refined stuff like refined sucrose or HFCS)? I speculate that this may be why Peat has not generally recommended supplementing it?

Peat has recommended not to supplement it as it seems to have estrogenic effects. That's the reference I've gotten on the subjects if you search boron there is a post by @natedawggh can't seem to get a link. Here's his post Boron—Essential To Ray Peat Health?

Somewhere there it says rays opinion about it being estrogenic. I highly doubt it just because it raises testosterone and DHT. If a compound is purely stimulating aromatase then it's estrogenic and would have lowered testosterone long term. If a supplement boost testosterone then it's not surprising it would boost estrogen as well. Probably more so in men with high body fat as they got more aromatase equals higher % of T to E conversion.

Also, all studies on its positive effects usually use 3mg or up to 10mg. I highly doubt people do get that in a modern diet. People usually get about 1mg a day. Studies with areas where they tend to consume 3mg have much lower arthritis and lower osteoporosis by a lot. Any supplement that also works by boosting the active vitamin D without depleting as I mentioned other nutrients like magnesium and actually works by helping the cells hold on to magnesium should be highly anabolic and increase ATP by boosting intracellular magnesium.

It also has positive effects on tooth decay and in my opinion boron is a much better and safer alternative to vitamin D. Especially in a combination of magnesium. Do you mean that ray peat advice against a nutrient coz we tend to get enough off it in our diet? But we get vitamin E in our diet? Why would he recommend that then? You get my point. The only reason he advises against it was because of the so said increase in estrogen but its a result of the overall increase in androgens.

I think the amount of boron plants need to survive varies widely because fruits like apricots, grapes, plums etc have high amounts of boron in its outer layer. While normal plants barely contain anything. but when you talk about plants you mean the leaves of leafy green. They need boron but it's in such minuscule amounts. Ray does not even recommend to eat leafy greens unless they are cooked because of their antithyroid properties. He do recommend fruits though so that's a good source but still, I believe supplemental boron as it's place in health and benefits.

If it can increase vitamin D status, hold on to magnesium, boost androgens and increase ceruloplasmin thus helping utilize iron without the need of higher iron status that would in turn increase dopamine, thyroid health without irons toxic effects. Seems like a given.

If you google foods high in boron plants aren't even on the list so its a bad reference to compare plant ingestion to a high boron diet. Only sorta planty food on the list of 27 foods high in boron was broccoli it had 0.3mg in 100g. No one eats 300 grams of broccoli per day. And it's a cruciferous vegetable with anti-thyroid properties so ray advice against it.

@natedawggh Would be nice to hear your thoughts and opinion about boron since you studied it and supplemented with it.

Bump notice natedawggh haven't been online since 2016.
 
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Cirion

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nate doesn't post here anymore, but in his book (I've read most of it now) he is a fan of boron, and recommends people to take it in the form of borax. I forget his recommended dosage off the top of my head though.
 

Douglas Ek

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nate doesn't post here anymore, but in his book (I've read most of it now) he is a fan of boron, and recommends people to take it in the form of borax. I forget his recommended dosage off the top of my head though.

Interesting. Where can I find his book?
 

tara

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Also, all studies on its positive effects usually use 3mg or up to 10mg. I highly doubt people do get that in a modern diet. People usually get about 1mg a day.

There are a lot of people relying heavily on highly refined foods - lots of calories from refined sugars, other refined or modified carbs, or seed oils, or white rice, bread, pasta, flour - so it wouldn't surprise me if some of them get deficient in lots of things, quite possibly boron too.
I'm not saying no-one should supplement anything, or supplement boron specifically, or that no-one would benefit. I use supplements. Maybe some people can benefit from this one. My caution would be about assuming it's needed or beneficial for everyone.

But we get vitamin E in our diet?
Maybe because vit E has a specific role in counteracting some of harmful effects of the unnaturally high PUFA consumption that has become habitual, , and that the natural sources of vit-E tend to be highish PUFA foods that he doesn't recommend eating a lot of?

Do you mean that ray peat advice against a nutrient coz we tend to get enough off it in our diet?
I'm not sure. I'm trying to remember whether I've read something specific from Peat to say that it would be likely harmful to supplement boron, or just that it's generally unnecessary. He seems to generally favour food over isolated supplements, with exceptions for particular situations.
My guess, not spelled out by Peat that I've heard, is that if asked about someone who was boron deficient, he'd encourage them to eat foods that contain boron in the first hand, to see if that resolved it.
But there might be particular situations warranting supplement.

but when you talk about plants you mean the leaves of leafy green
Actually, I was thinking about the roots.
I think the amount of boron plants need to survive varies widely because fruits like apricots, grapes, plums etc have high amounts of boron in its outer layer.
All the more reason to get some of those in season. :)

He do recommend fruits though so that's a good source ...
Yes, more than the standard diet, I think.
If you google foods high in boron plants aren't even on the list so its a bad reference to compare plant ingestion to a high boron diet. Only sorta planty food on the list of 27 foods high in boron was broccoli it had 0.3mg in 100g. No one eats 300 grams of broccoli per day. And it's a cruciferous vegetable with anti-thyroid properties so ray advice against it.
Most people don't eat 300g broccoli every day, but I bet a few people eat 300g broccoli some days.
But in the first lists I've looked at, just at a quick google search without investigating the sources, list a bunch of plant foods. Meat, eggs and milk seem to be pretty low in it. Not sure if that's because meat is poor in boron or because they are vegetarians, or what. But broccoli's way down the lists.
I like raisins - I might be getting a mcg or 2 of boron a day from them ATM. Also from that list, in the last week, I've eaten a head of broccoli, orange/juice, a few apricots, peaches, red apples, bananas, potatoes, almonds, a dollop of houmous. Pears will be ripe soon, so I'll eat plenty of them.

I've certainly have had and will have at times at least the following in a day, and could swap some of them out for other tasty boron-containing foods, and easily clear 3mg boron according to the charts I've seen:
30g raisins
300g potatoes
1 med - large pear or red apple
2 bananas
100 g broccoli

(and that's without the occasion foray into dates, hoummous, half a dozen almonds or peanuts, or more regular oranges/juice, carrots, ...)

Overall, looking at lists of boron containing foods etc, it seems as though boron is yet another reason not to get too orthorexically narrow in food choices. Wider variety of food species (maybe also geographical origin if one is not home-gardening with informed attention too full soil nourishment) seems as though it could cover the mineral bases more reliably.
 
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@methylenwhite, Could you elaborate more on that?
I`m asking, because, according to doctors and several check ups, I shouldn`t have any problems with my liver, but I feel like my glycogen storing capacity have always been miserable... So, in case I`m MTHFR mutation carrier, and took some choline and betaine (how much?) then what should I feel/happen? What difference would make?
And what do NAFLD and TMG stand for?

Im not a doctor and my personal experience and opinion should not substitute a trained medical doctor opinion. MTHFR thing is complex, depends on it's varieties and enzyme activity . NAFLD is Non-Alchoholic Fatty Liver Disease, fat build up in liver caused by any other reason than alcohol. Usually liver panel blood test gives normal result in case of NAFLD, its kinda tricky to diagnose, they use biopsy sometimes. NAFLD is associated with MTHFR. TMG is Trimethylglycine, a kind of betaine. Try supplementing L-methylfolate 300-400 mcg, choline 500-1000mg, betaine about 1000mg per day. Watch for caffeine tolerance it should become much higher.
 

aliciahere

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@Dino D have you ever been tested for Celiac? pretty much all of the symptoms you mentioned could be linked to this. You can get bloodwork tested by a regular dr , but you have to have been eating at least two slices of bread a day (or equivalent) for 6 weeks or more. You don’t need to have any stomach issues to have this condition, though you did mention some bloating. The insatiable hunger, iron issues, stress, insomnia, etc...it could easily be explained by celiac. feeling better on Keto would also line up with this
 
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Dino D

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@Dino D have you ever been tested for Celiac? pretty much all of the symptoms you mentioned could be linked to this. You can get bloodwork tested by a regular dr , but you have to have been eating at least two slices of bread a day (or equivalent) for 6 weeks or more. You don’t need to have any stomach issues to have this condition, though you did mention some bloating. The insatiable hunger, iron issues, stress, insomnia, etc...it could easily be explained by celiac. feeling better on Keto would also line up with this
I have not been tested... i had many long periods of gluten free diets, and i never noticed any difference... The last two times i ate a lot of gluten products few day in a row i had bad symptoms, so who knows, and I have hashimoto (lab test are still ok), so its possible... btw i stopped gluten... as I said, in the last 4 years i ate gluten for maybe 80 days (just guessing) so i doubt that is the core problem... i will try to transit towards a meat and fruit based diet (90%), with very small amounts of starch, dairy or some junk... then i will report...
Edit: after keto everything got worse, i experienced this 3 times after 3 short keto periods... so high pufa or insulin resistance could be it... i'm ,,ex sporty" and now sedentery and this is also bad, i went back to sport a few times and nothing improved... eating more fat also does not seam to help with anything (but i does not harm me not that i notice, i mean i dont have imediate reactions to fat) sweating helps... ah, we will see :) meat and fruit based is something new for me, i will try :)
 
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Vinny

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Im not a doctor and my personal experience and opinion should not substitute a trained medical doctor opinion. MTHFR thing is complex, depends on it's varieties and enzyme activity . NAFLD is Non-Alchoholic Fatty Liver Disease, fat build up in liver caused by any other reason than alcohol. Usually liver panel blood test gives normal result in case of NAFLD, its kinda tricky to diagnose, they use biopsy sometimes. NAFLD is associated with MTHFR. TMG is Trimethylglycine, a kind of betaine. Try supplementing L-methylfolate 300-400 mcg, choline 500-1000mg, betaine about 1000mg per day. Watch for caffeine tolerance it should become much higher.
I understand you are not a doctor and you dont give medical advise.
So, the above mentioned supplements will presumably help with NAFLD, if I have one, am I close to your point? thank you
(btw, my coffeine tolerance is very low, if that means anything)
 

bennyha

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OK
I think I can eat 4 ever...
If I eat pasta and bread i cant stop...
I can also drink a lot of juice...

I think I can eat almost 10000 calories a day... maybe evan more, I never feel like I cant eat anymore, If i stuff my self to death I can still eat againg after 20 minutes... The more I eat the more I want to eat.
Today I'm at 6000 and I'm still hungry... Normally I eat about 2500 calories a day...
If I take supplements my hunger increases, almost from every supplement

Should I try to eat as much as I wannt?
When i eat so much i dont feel good, bloating and what not, my sleep also gets worse, but in the end of the day I always restrict... If I eat a lot i get like a adrenaline rush... should i try eating as much as I want? or?

ps. Im 182 cm high, and I weight 80kg ;)

Didn’t read the other responses in this thread but here is my advice.

Eat as much meat as you can until you feel full, then stop. Make the meat really fatty if possible but something you enjoy eating. Eat only meat and eat until you are satisfied each and every day. Just meat, salt, and water. I absolutely guarantee you that within a couple weeks, you will no longer crave junk and your appetite and weight will normalize as well. I know it’s not “fun”, but it’s simple, and it works. I’ve seen it work first hand with 7 or 8 people now that I personally know and it works every time. No endless hunger and thoughts of eating food and you will no longer crave junk.

Try it. You won’t be disappointed. Good luck!
 
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Dino D

Dino D

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Didn’t read the other responses in this thread but here is my advice.

Eat as much meat as you can until you feel full, then stop. Make the meat really fatty if possible but something you enjoy eating. Eat only meat and eat until you are satisfied each and every day. Just meat, salt, and water. I absolutely guarantee you that within a couple weeks, you will no longer crave junk and your appetite and weight will normalize as well. I know it’s not “fun”, but it’s simple, and it works. I’ve seen it work first hand with 7 or 8 people now that I personally know and it works every time. No endless hunger and thoughts of eating food and you will no longer crave junk.

Try it. You won’t be disappointed. Good luck!
That is carnivore...
What will happen with my sleep, libido, and stress, what will happen
when I reintroduce carbs... isnt that all just because of high stress... low carb/keto is what destroyed the health of most of the people here, isnt carnivore the same?
 

bennyha

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That is carnivore...
What will happen with my sleep, libido, and stress, what will happen
when I reintroduce carbs... isnt that all just because of high stress... low carb/keto is what destroyed the health of most of the people here, isnt carnivore the same?


It’s done the exact opposite for me. Every single blood test and my hair tests are great. I’ve been monitoring everything for 9 years and it’s the first thing that has helped. I’ve tried every kind of diet and supplement and energy medicine and everything out there, and for long periods of time. Not hating here but Peating for over a year was the worst thing I did for my health symptom wise and from a blood and hair test perspective. I don’t think all the calcium and Vitamin A are good for slow metabolizers. I also looked like ***t on a Peat diet. Only time I got chubby in my life. I was working with a Peat inspired practitioner so I know I was doing it “right”. I also think the best thing I have done is basically stop all supplements. I just use magnesium spray now for the most part. I was taking up to 20 supplements at a time during my peak. Big mistake imo. Ella here on this forum advised me many times to stop all supplements and I didn’t listen. Now I’m seeing she is correct.

I eat ribeye steaks so my protein/fat ratio is 35/65. Also, don’t do it forever. It took away my lifelong acne within a week and it’s never came back so I’m just waiting but will gradually start adding more foods back in. Do it to get your appetite back in check. My youngest brother had similar issues and he’s done the same thing I listed above and has lost his insatiable appetite as well as 17 lbs. He wasn’t overweight by any means but now he looks and feels great and isn’t constantly hungry. He just eats as much as he desires morning and night and he’s good. Says around start of 3rd week he noticed his appetite was completely under control.

Oh and I’ve noticed the exact opposite in terms of hormones and libido. Libido is the best it’s ever been in my life, and I’m late 30’s and am growing chest and facial hair for the first time in my life. And it’s coming in fast and quick! After having none for 37 years at all. I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

Not here to promote only eating meat forever. I’m telling you my personal experience and what it’s done for me, my brother, and a couple woman I personally am close with. I used to have uncontrollable hunger and it was awful so I’ve been there. Just telling you what’s helped me. Good luck on whatever you choose to do. I hope you find something that helps you
 

Vinny

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It’s done the exact opposite for me. Every single blood test and my hair tests are great. I’ve been monitoring everything for 9 years and it’s the first thing that has helped. I’ve tried every kind of diet and supplement and energy medicine and everything out there, and for long periods of time. Not hating here but Peating for over a year was the worst thing I did for my health symptom wise and from a blood and hair test perspective. I don’t think all the calcium and Vitamin A are good for slow metabolizers. I also looked like ***t on a Peat diet. Only time I got chubby in my life. I was working with a Peat inspired practitioner so I know I was doing it “right”. I also think the best thing I have done is basically stop all supplements. I just use magnesium spray now for the most part. I was taking up to 20 supplements at a time during my peak. Big mistake imo. Ella here on this forum advised me many times to stop all supplements and I didn’t listen. Now I’m seeing she is correct.

I eat ribeye steaks so my protein/fat ratio is 35/65. Also, don’t do it forever. It took away my lifelong acne within a week and it’s never came back so I’m just waiting but will gradually start adding more foods back in. Do it to get your appetite back in check. My youngest brother had similar issues and he’s done the same thing I listed above and has lost his insatiable appetite as well as 17 lbs. He wasn’t overweight by any means but now he looks and feels great and isn’t constantly hungry. He just eats as much as he desires morning and night and he’s good. Says around start of 3rd week he noticed his appetite was completely under control.

Oh and I’ve noticed the exact opposite in terms of hormones and libido. Libido is the best it’s ever been in my life, and I’m late 30’s and am growing chest and facial hair for the first time in my life. And it’s coming in fast and quick! After having none for 37 years at all. I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

Not here to promote only eating meat forever. I’m telling you my personal experience and what it’s done for me, my brother, and a couple woman I personally am close with. I used to have uncontrollable hunger and it was awful so I’ve been there. Just telling you what’s helped me. Good luck on whatever you choose to do. I hope you find something that helps you
very intersting! thanks for sharing ur experience!
can i ask, why did u start peating? hypothyroid? did u take the hormone? how are ur temps now?
 

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