Appetite Has Totally Tanked

[firebreather]

I just read through dopamine's thread on depression and there was so much good info with the responses. My story and struggles are somewhat different than his so I thought I would make my own thread and not hijack his.

I have been struggling with these fatigue/hypothyroid issues ever since I started Paleo in 2009 but all that time I had a really good appetite up until 9 months ago and now it is totally in the tank.

My wife thinks it's depression. I agree that it could be as I virtually have no challenge in my life and I am really struggling with anger in numerous situations in my life which I am sure contributes to the sleep issues.

I have tried virtually every supplement that RP suggests trying. With almost everything I feel nothing. Thyroid seems to do nothing for my pulse, temp and energy.

Most days I urinate several times a day and the urine is clear and cold feet so much of the day.

One of the things that I can't help but notice is that the more sugar I eat the more my appetite seems to decrease. The last two weeks I really ramped up the sugar to try and help with the adrenaline issues and even though it seems like it MAY be helping slightly I don't feel like eating anything, especially breakfast.

I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place and some days I like giving up completely on everything.

One of our kids is pretty hyper and loud and many days I feel like it takes every bit of strength I have not to go insane or totally lose it.

I will be the first to admit that I definitely seem to struggle with compulsitivity or getting very stressed out over small issues.

Some things I gleaned from dopamine's thread that I am looking into are Naltrexone, Agmatine, CBT.

Thanks for your input

 

[Orion]

RP thinks alot of those type of issues start with the intestinal tract. Has raw carrot, cooked bamboo shoots away from meal been tried?

Have you tried anti-histamine; cyprohepdatine? Or have access to penicillin, tetracycline?

Are you getting good quality protein, ~100-150g from milk or cheese. Also at least 2grams calcium per day?

Is your cholesterol level over 200, which is protective?

After listening to over 100hrs of RP interviews, it all clearly relates back to PUFA stores and PUFA intake. Have you thought of trying zero fat or very low fat to start getting the body to purge PUFA stores. Some threads on here have shown the 2 weeks to a month zero fat, have dramatic effects on lowering stored PUFA, just make sure to keep calories high(milk, juice, sugar, honey, 0% fat cottage cheese...).

PUFA blocks metabolism is many ways, very specifically it blocks T4 and vitamin A transport, which are critical with cholesterol to make pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA.

 

[firebreather]

Thanks so much for the questions.

I've eaten raw carrots between meals often but not bamboo shoots.

I've also tried cypro with virtually no effect and penicillin.

Dairy seems to make nasal passages inflamed so I have to be really careful with that. Also that much milk would have me urinating like crazy.

I take calcium carbonate since I don't get much dairy.

My cholesterol is definitely way over 200. Over 300 when I don't take thyroid.

I take a grain of thryoid a day so I'd guess it's around 290 right now.

I have tried very low fat a few times but it seems to make the cold feet and frequent urination worse, but if I could get all that PUFU out in a month it might be worth it.

Can you give some food ideas of what little to no fat would look like as far as foods go?

I can definitely get enough sugar if I force myself but how would I get enough protein apart from lots of chicken which in my understanding is not good anyway?

RP thinks alot of those type of issues start with the intestinal tract. Has raw carrot, cooked bamboo shoots away from meal been tried?

Have you tried anti-histamine; cyprohepdatine? Or have access to penicillin, tetracycline?

Are you getting good quality protein, ~100-150g from milk or cheese. Also at least 2grams calcium per day?

Is your cholesterol level over 200, which is protective?

After listening to over 100hrs of RP interviews, it all clearly relates back to PUFA stores and PUFA intake. Have you thought of trying zero fat or very low fat to start getting the body to purge PUFA stores. Some threads on here have shown the 2 weeks to a month zero fat, have dramatic effects on lowering stored PUFA, just make sure to keep calories high(milk, juice, sugar, honey, 0% fat cottage cheese...).

PUFA blocks metabolism is many ways, very specifically it blocks T4 and vitamin A transport, which are critical with cholesterol to make pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA.

 

[Orion]

Thanks so much for the questions.

I've eaten raw carrots between meals often but not bamboo shoots.

I've also tried cypro with virtually no effect and penicillin.

Dairy seems to make nasal passages inflamed so I have to be really careful with that. Also that much milk would have me urinating like crazy.

I take calcium carbonate since I don't get much dairy.

My cholesterol is definitely way over 200. Over 300 when I don't take thyroid.

I take a grain of thryoid a day so I'd guess it's around 290 right now.

I have tried very low fat a few times but it seems to make the cold feet and frequent urination worse, but if I could get all that PUFU out in a month it might be worth it.

Can you give some food ideas of what little to no fat would look like as far as foods go?

I can definitely get enough sugar if I force myself but how would I get enough protein apart from lots of chicken which in my understanding is not good anyway?

Milk causing coldfeet and frequent urination, could be mineral/salts, have you tried large amounts of canning salt 1TBsp throughout day? 1TBsp baking soda throughout the day, it can be helpful to raise CO2.

Here is what my day looks like, liver and oysters are not everyday, oysters once per week, liver twice per week:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/food-png.3825/

 

[firebreather]

Milk causing coldfeet and frequent urination, could be mineral/salts, have you tried large amounts of canning salt 1TBsp throughout day? 1TBsp baking soda throughout the day, it can be helpful to raise CO2.

Here is what my day looks like, liver and oysters are not everyday, oysters once per week, liver twice per week:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/food-png.3825/

Yes, I use a lot of canning salt every day.

I have used baking soda nearly as much as canning salt but I have tried it numerous times

 

[firebreather]

Milk causing coldfeet and frequent urination, could be mineral/salts, have you tried large amounts of canning salt 1TBsp throughout day? 1TBsp baking soda throughout the day, it can be helpful to raise CO2.

Here is what my day looks like, liver and oysters are not everyday, oysters once per week, liver twice per week:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/food-png.3825/

If you couldn't have 9 cups of milk a day what would you eat to get your protein? Low fat options of course?

 

[Orion]

If you couldn't have 9 cups of milk a day what would you eat to get your protein? Low fat options of course?

The 0% fat pressed dry cottage cheese I buy, comes in 500g blocks and provides 100g protein per 500g. Probably eat one of those, with gelatin, and maybe some egg whites. I think non oily white fish would be an option too.

 

[firebreather]

The 0% fat pressed dry cottage cheese I buy, comes in 500g blocks and provides 100g protein per 500g. Probably eat one of those, with gelatin, and maybe some egg whites. I think non oily white fish would be an option too.

I guess I should have said how would you get it if you couldn't have dairy.

It really screws with my nasal passages

 

[Orion]

I guess I should have said how would you get it if you couldn't have dairy.

It really screws with my nasal passages

I guess non-oily fish, lean meat with gelatin to match, egg white, potatoe. Starch and muscle meat are very efficient at raising insulin, which brings on stress hormones to stabilize blood sugar though... sugar with them can lessen this effect.

Have you tried different brands of milk? same effect?

 

[firebreather]

I guess non-oily fish, lean meat with gelatin to match, egg white, potatoe. Starch and muscle meat are very efficient at raising insulin, which brings on stress hormones to stabilize blood sugar though... sugar with them can lessen this effect.

Have you tried different brands of milk? same effect?

Yes I have tried different brands of milk, even raw milk

 

[Orion]

Yes I have tried different brands of milk, even raw milk

ok ya seems like you tried all the good stuff. Since RP thinks that PUFA is root, doing what you can to get to zero fat with high calorie for 30 day experiment might be something to try.

Were your days before Paleo high in PUFA intake? Was your Paleo approach, high muscle meat, high fat fish oil lard bacon bathing :)

 

[firebreather]

ok ya seems like you tried all the good stuff. Since RP thinks that PUFA is root, doing what you can to get to zero fat with high calorie for 30 day experiment might be something to try.

Were your days before Paleo high in PUFA intake? Was your Paleo approach, high muscle meat, high fat fish oil lard bacon bathing :)

Were my days before Paleo high in PUFU? I don't really remember. Probably not as high as some people. I probably ate cereal for breakfast, maybe a sandwich or leftovers for dinner. Dinner was probably something like steak; lasagna, spaghetti. Probably had peanut butter every once in a while.

I don't think I had a lot of vegetable oils.

My paleo approach was high meat/protein; moderate fat, a handful of nuts every day. Maybe a couple pieces of fruit. I did take a lot of fish oil though. I was tired then with pulse in the upper 50's. Not sure about temps at that time.

Everything went way downhill when I went low carb though, which was a few yrs into paleo. That's when I went really high fat (mostly saturated though) and very low carbs, still high protein. But I think this is also when I started feeling angry at several situations in my life.

For me I think the anger is a big part of my struggle. Trying to deal with that but keep running into dead ends

 

[papaya]

The 0% fat pressed dry cottage cheese I buy, comes in 500g blocks and provides 100g protein per 500g. Probably eat one of those, with gelatin, and maybe some egg whites. I think non oily white fish would be an option too.

where do u buy this cottage cheese???

 

[Dopamine]

Maybe give this a read:
The Effects of Starvation on Behavior: Implications for Dieting and Eating Disorders - River Centre Clinic

"Although the subjects were psychologically healthy prior to the experiment, most experienced significant emotional deterioration as a result of semistarvation. Most subjects experienced periods during which their emotional distress was quite severe; almost 20 percent had extreme emotional deterioration that markedly interfered with their functioning. Depression became more severe during the course of the experiment. Mood swings were extreme for some of the volunteers:

[One subject] experienced a number of periods in which his spirits were definitely high … These elated periods alternated with times in which he suffered “a deep dark depression.” (p. 903)

Irritability and frequent outbursts of anger were common, although the men had fairly tolerant dispositions prior to starvation..."

"As the 6 months of semistarvation progressed, the volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid causing swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold hands and feet); visual disturbances (Le., inability to focus, eye aches, “spots” in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling sensations, especially in the hands or feet).

Various changes reflected an over~1I slowing of the body’s physiologic processes. There were decreases in body temperature, heart rate, and respiration, as well as in basal metabolic rate (BMR), the amount of energy (in calories) that the body requires at rest (i.e., no physical activity) to carry out normal physiologic processes. It accounts for about two thirds of the body’s total energy needs, with the remainder being used during physical activity. At the end of semistarvation, the men’s BMRs had dropped by about 40 percent from normal levels. This drop, as well as other physical changes, reflect the body’s extraordinary ability to adapt to low caloric intake by reducing its need for energy. More recent research has shown that metabolic rate is markedly reduced even among dieters who do not have a history of dramatic weight loss.11 During refeeding, Keys et al. found that metabolism speeded up, with those consuming the greatest number of calories experiencing the great rise in BMR. The group of volunteers who received a relatively small increment in calories during refeeding (400 calories more than during semistarvation) had no rise in BMR for the first 3 weeks. Consuming larger amounts of food caused a sharp increase in the energy burned through metabolic processes."

 

[Dopamine]

I relate to the loss of appetite. The last few days especially. I'm starting an eating plan to jack my calories up.

 

[X3CyO]

As someone who's gone through many diets, similar experiences to you, and haven't ever been hungry since middle school, to find peat, was a godsend. You will gain your appetite back. If you attack one of these general issues, it will help regardless of whether or not that was the source of the issue.



1) Calories. If you're eating peat, you need way more than the average person. I think Danny Roddy eats 3000 and is 155 or so and lean. I personally have been eating 4000cal at 160 (bulking to 175).

Anabolism to me is a very fine line between perfect nutrition, physiology, rest, and metabolism, keeping the body in an oxidative state while almost bordering fat burning.

Sugar and carbs surge dopamine through the brain. After a while when the high is gone, the craving for the dopamine, cholesterol, antistress chemicals go up, causing hunger, atleast to some extent in my mind. I don't think I crave calories directly.



2) Protein.
100G is great to aim for with around 20G of that from gelatin or from a similar source. Without it, the body can't rebuild in the first place. It helps shuttle all these hormones around in the first place.



3) Stomach problems.
There's structural and bacterial flora.
Both can be ameliorated by activated charcoal powder, sugar, salt/baking soda, and coconut oil.
They act like antiseptics cleaning out gut bacteria and sending them to the nether regions.
I parachuted 1/2 cup activated charcoal every three or so nights when I was dealing with autistic tendencies and anxiety. Also used 3 tsp of coconut oil too.
1/4 is usually good enough though for activated charcoal, and more can be done with coconut oil.



4) Nutrition.
If it isn't any of that, and you're getting in adequate minerals, vitamins, sodium, potassium, then youre almost in the clear.
I don't care what people think regarding multivitamins, if you research it and it's all in bioavailable forms then use it as bodily insurance.(Especially since I don't like liver yet.) I take mine every couple days and feel great.

5) Too much outside help: If you're taking thyroid, progesterone, test, dht, or any androgens of the like discussed on here, including caffiene and methylene blue and aspirin... it's too much for most at first. Really. It is. I wanted to do everything at once and ended up with poor temps and losing a lot of body fat and a little muscle.

Every time I'd go on my computer with problems, I'd look for the next best supplement, but in reality, the body doesn't need any "supplements" to run optimally. There's checks and balances in place so that only when all the boxes are checked off will it run faster. I think I've got 40 or so supps sitting around and only use Phenibut every few months now. Ah well. Live and learn.

I just eat peat foods when I'm upset or lost or depressed or even think about supplements now. It sounds like that could turn into a problem, but if you eat peat, it'll burn off anyway.

All these supps are the tip of the iceberg. And if they're reccomended by the forum, they're strong and without all the above will turn the body catabolic.

They're just tools once the body is no longer compromised to me. Double edged swords to be precise.



If it's not any of that, I wish you the best on your journey and hope you figure out what the issue is Bro.

-X


6) if anything... Gum. Make your brain feel like you're eating all day, and eventually it'll decide it wants food. Worked ok for me as a temporary compromise.

 

[Orion]

where do u buy this cottage cheese???

A local dairy here provides most stores in the area with it. Maybe check your local health food store, if there is a dairy section.

 

[firebreather]

In no way shape or format am I bashing Peat, I couldn't see the problems of paleo and low carb until I found Peat.

But my appetite tanked when I tried to follow more of Peat recommendations.

As someone who's gone through many diets, similar experiences to you, and haven't ever been hungry since middle school, to find peat, was a godsend. You will gain your appetite back. If you attack one of these general issues, it will help regardless of whether or not that was the source of the issue.



1) Calories. If you're eating peat, you need way more than the average person. I think Danny Roddy eats 3000 and is 155 or so and lean. I personally have been eating 4000cal at 160 (bulking to 175).

Anabolism to me is a very fine line between perfect nutrition, physiology, rest, and metabolism, keeping the body in an oxidative state while almost bordering fat burning.

Sugar and carbs surge dopamine through the brain. After a while when the high is gone, the craving for the dopamine, cholesterol, antistress chemicals go up, causing hunger, atleast to some extent in my mind. I don't think I crave calories directly.



2) Protein.
100G is great to aim for with around 20G of that from gelatin or from a similar source. Without it, the body can't rebuild in the first place. It helps shuttle all these hormones around in the first place.



3) Stomach problems.
There's structural and bacterial flora.
Both can be ameliorated by activated charcoal powder, sugar, salt/baking soda, and coconut oil.
They act like antiseptics cleaning out gut bacteria and sending them to the nether regions.
I parachuted 1/2 cup activated charcoal every three or so nights when I was dealing with autistic tendencies and anxiety. Also used 3 tsp of coconut oil too.
1/4 is usually good enough though for activated charcoal, and more can be done with coconut oil.



4) Nutrition.
If it isn't any of that, and you're getting in adequate minerals, vitamins, sodium, potassium, then youre almost in the clear.
I don't care what people think regarding multivitamins, if you research it and it's all in bioavailable forms then use it as bodily insurance.(Especially since I don't like liver yet.) I take mine every couple days and feel great.

5) Too much outside help: If you're taking thyroid, progesterone, test, dht, or any androgens of the like discussed on here, including caffiene and methylene blue and aspirin... it's too much for most at first. Really. It is. I wanted to do everything at once and ended up with poor temps and losing a lot of body fat and a little muscle.

Every time I'd go on my computer with problems, I'd look for the next best supplement, but in reality, the body doesn't need any "supplements" to run optimally. There's checks and balances in place so that only when all the boxes are checked off will it run faster. I think I've got 40 or so supps sitting around and only use Phenibut every few months now. Ah well. Live and learn.

I just eat peat foods when I'm upset or lost or depressed or even think about supplements now. It sounds like that could turn into a problem, but if you eat peat, it'll burn off anyway.

All these supps are the tip of the iceberg. And if they're reccomended by the forum, they're strong and without all the above will turn the body catabolic.

They're just tools once the body is no longer compromised to me. Double edged swords to be precise.



If it's not any of that, I wish you the best on your journey and hope you figure out what the issue is Bro.

-X


6) if anything... Gum. Make your brain feel like you're eating all day, and eventually it'll decide it wants food. Worked ok for me as a temporary compromise.

 

[firebreather]

I can relate to sooooo many of these things but I don't see how this applies to me. I am not restricting calories.

I did in the past when I was trying the Zone but that was about 5 yrs ago

Maybe give this a read:
The Effects of Starvation on Behavior: Implications for Dieting and Eating Disorders - River Centre Clinic

"Although the subjects were psychologically healthy prior to the experiment, most experienced significant emotional deterioration as a result of semistarvation. Most subjects experienced periods during which their emotional distress was quite severe; almost 20 percent had extreme emotional deterioration that markedly interfered with their functioning. Depression became more severe during the course of the experiment. Mood swings were extreme for some of the volunteers:

[One subject] experienced a number of periods in which his spirits were definitely high … These elated periods alternated with times in which he suffered “a deep dark depression.” (p. 903)

Irritability and frequent outbursts of anger were common, although the men had fairly tolerant dispositions prior to starvation..."

"As the 6 months of semistarvation progressed, the volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid causing swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold hands and feet); visual disturbances (Le., inability to focus, eye aches, “spots” in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling sensations, especially in the hands or feet).

Various changes reflected an over~1I slowing of the body’s physiologic processes. There were decreases in body temperature, heart rate, and respiration, as well as in basal metabolic rate (BMR), the amount of energy (in calories) that the body requires at rest (i.e., no physical activity) to carry out normal physiologic processes. It accounts for about two thirds of the body’s total energy needs, with the remainder being used during physical activity. At the end of semistarvation, the men’s BMRs had dropped by about 40 percent from normal levels. This drop, as well as other physical changes, reflect the body’s extraordinary ability to adapt to low caloric intake by reducing its need for energy. More recent research has shown that metabolic rate is markedly reduced even among dieters who do not have a history of dramatic weight loss.11 During refeeding, Keys et al. found that metabolism speeded up, with those consuming the greatest number of calories experiencing the great rise in BMR. The group of volunteers who received a relatively small increment in calories during refeeding (400 calories more than during semistarvation) had no rise in BMR for the first 3 weeks. Consuming larger amounts of food caused a sharp increase in the energy burned through metabolic processes."

 

[papaya]

A local dairy here provides most stores in the area with it. Maybe check your local health food store, if there is a dairy section.

thank u! after i asked you, i googled it & realized that it's what we call farmers cheese here lol. btw, thank u so much for your posts on here, they r always so helpful to me!!!