Anything That Lowers Adrenaline But DOESN'T Lower Cortisol?

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firebreather

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Thyroid could be better but it's been worse, but I'm also taking 3 grains of NDT. I've tried just about everything Peat recommended. These days my temp during the day is usually in the upper 97's or low 98s and my pulse is usually around 70.

I've tried the t4 before bed and can't say it did much. I've also tried ProgestE.

Last week I cut way back on my fluid intake and much of the time I'm able to only urinate every 4 hours but it's not easy. With this I've noticed that I can make it till about 5am until I have to urinate. Sometimes I still wake up and sometimes I don't.
 

marsaday

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Ok so you are a thyroid patient !

Most under active thyroid patients have low cortisol and run on adrenaline. This is part of the poorly functioning thyroid / adrenal loop.

Vitamin D needs to be good and iron level ok. Lots of women have low iron and this is an issue in getting thyroid hormone to work. I don't know if you are male or female.

General B vitamins want to be topped up and magnesium is a good mineral to use. This is a summary of the vitamins and minerals which thyroid patients need to look at.

3 grains = 108 mcg T4 and 27 mcg T3

This is a typical dose of NTH.

I prefer to use T4 and T3. T4 is taken at bedtime and over a period of a month you will notice a change in how you feel. If you tried bedtime dosing and then switched back after 4 weeks to morning dosing you will notice a difference. The only problem you have with bedtime dosing is using NTH and specifically the T3 element. This can cause sleeping issues. A way around this is to take maybe 1 grain at bed and the rest the following day.

I also prefer to use NTH (if i was using it) spread over the day. So 1 grain at bedtime, 1grain on waking and 1 grain mid afternoon. Spreading the T3 element may bring benefits.

Finally you should look into the Early morning T3 routine to help boost adrenal function. This was discovered by Paul Robinson in the UK and he has written a book about it. This is his blog and it has a lot of useful info in there. The idea behind middle of the night or early morning T3 usage is that we can artificially boost T3 in our cells and so boost a corresponding amount of cortisol production as the two hormones work together. If you have a low thyroid system the body will only make a low supply of cortisol. This all happens when we sleep. Thyroid is made first and cortisol towards the end of the night.

So we can take some T3 at approx 4am to boost cortisol. I have saliva samples which show my own cortisol is boosted a lot from this. This is why T4 at bedtime works so much better BUT the addition of T3 in the morning at 4am really improves things even more. With NTH you will have to experiment with a dose that works when looking into this method.

Recovering with T3 | Resources for people recovering from hypothyroidism using T3 replacement therapy or are considering doing so
 
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u guys ar crazy cortisol is already low in slow oxidiser then you lower it more LOL )))) meanwhile copper doesnt is used and adrenals must work over time )) this Peat rly is mad man )))) buy my hair test pls ;)))) everything will explained then @Amazoniac
 

Amazoniac

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u guys ar crazy cortisol is already low in slow oxidiser then you lower it more LOL )))) meanwhile copper doesnt is used and adrenals must work over time )) this Peat rly is mad man )))) buy my hair test pls ;)))) everything will explained then @Amazoniac
Listen , Saturatio. BOdy is regulatory,its there to save you))) Now tell how could it be otherwise?
Open anesthesiology book , Georgi is stuck there. End stage stress is relaxed bud)) You supress it ,you die.This is basic stuff, biochemistry 101. You dont find it in studies ,you cant read them anyway

If you cant understand what I'm saying, I'm not interested in explaining to you)) This is flat out ridiculous, just leave the thread please and stop wasting my time

Hair testing is profitable? LMAO
I gain ZERO from doing this , its charity

Look,one more time. PEAT is ONE biochemistry, there are at least 12 of them
One needs manganese , another homeopathic gold, another powdered tin . Nearly everyone needs plankton these days
You cant give these people what they need, theyll crash big time.Reverse endocrimology is the future , you give them what they dont need, zinc starts going UP and copper comes out. that is all. It will cure them

GTA mode off:
Not saying to ease the mockery, but if you can get past the intolerance and occasional aggresion, his posts are quite interesting. He has many more good than bad points, especially when it comes to nutrient interactions.
 
OP
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firebreather

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Ok so you are a thyroid patient !

Most under active thyroid patients have low cortisol and run on adrenaline. This is part of the poorly functioning thyroid / adrenal loop.

Vitamin D needs to be good and iron level ok. Lots of women have low iron and this is an issue in getting thyroid hormone to work. I don't know if you are male or female.

I try to get at least one magnesium bath per week and my vitamin d has been good in the past when i've had it checked. B vitamins - do you recommend any brand specifically?

General B vitamins want to be topped up and magnesium is a good mineral to use. This is a summary of the vitamins and minerals which thyroid patients need to look at.

3 grains = 108 mcg T4 and 27 mcg T3

This is a typical dose of NTH.

I prefer to use T4 and T3. T4 is taken at bedtime and over a period of a month you will notice a change in how you feel. If you tried bedtime dosing and then switched back after 4 weeks to morning dosing you will notice a difference. The only problem you have with bedtime dosing is using NTH and specifically the T3 element. This can cause sleeping issues. A way around this is to take maybe 1 grain at bed and the rest the following day.

I also prefer to use NTH (if i was using it) spread over the day. So 1 grain at bedtime, 1grain on waking and 1 grain mid afternoon. Spreading the T3 element may bring benefits.

Finally you should look into the Early morning T3 routine to help boost adrenal function. This was discovered by Paul Robinson in the UK and he has written a book about it. This is his blog and it has a lot of useful info in there. The idea behind middle of the night or early morning T3 usage is that we can artificially boost T3 in our cells and so boost a corresponding amount of cortisol production as the two hormones work together. If you have a low thyroid system the body will only make a low supply of cortisol. This all happens when we sleep. Thyroid is made first and cortisol towards the end of the night.

So we can take some T3 at approx 4am to boost cortisol. I have saliva samples which show my own cortisol is boosted a lot from this. This is why T4 at bedtime works so much better BUT the addition of T3 in the morning at 4am really improves things even more. With NTH you will have to experiment with a dose that works when looking into this method.

Recovering with T3 | Resources for people recovering from hypothyroidism using T3 replacement therapy or are considering doing so

Thanks so much, I will have a look at his site.

I do spread out my NTH - breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Also I'm a male. I'm a firefighter and the middle of the night wakings are probably my biggest stress.

I did have a doc that gave me T4 and I might still have some, so I could give it a try by itself if I can find it.

I try to take 2 magnesium baths a week. do you recommend a specific brand for a B vitamin?

Thanks again
 
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marsaday

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No specific brand, just a good quality multi one. You don't need to go over board on them and prob take them 3 times a week.

Iron will probably be ok, but if ferritin stores are low this is not so good for thyroid patients.

This thyroid board in the UK is excellent. It sounds like you need some specific thyroid advise. I am pretty clued up on this area, but other patients may I've you some good info as well.

Men tend to do well with T4 only and a little T3. I don't like the fact NTH comes in a set ratio of T4 and T3. Very often the T3 element is too high for some people and they struggle.

Based on what you take i would be inclined to take 125 T4 and try a small starting dose of T3 of 6.25mcg or 12.5mcg (1/4 and 1/2 tablet size).

HealthUnlocked | The social network for health
 

Regina

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Listen , Saturatio. BOdy is regulatory,its there to save you))) Now tell how could it be otherwise?
Open anesthesiology book , Georgi is stuck there. End stage stress is relaxed bud)) You supress it ,you die.This is basic stuff, biochemistry 101. You dont find it in studies ,you cant read them anyway

If you cant understand what I'm saying, I'm not interested in explaining to you)) This is flat out ridiculous, just leave the thread please and stop wasting my time

Hair testing is profitable? LMAO
I gain ZERO from doing this , its charity

Look,one more time. PEAT is ONE biochemistry, there are at least 12 of them
One needs manganese , another homeopathic gold, another powdered tin . Nearly everyone needs plankton these days
You cant give these people what they need, theyll crash big time.Reverse endocrimology is the future , you give them what they dont need, zinc starts going UP and copper comes out. that is all. It will cure them

GTA mode off:
Not saying to ease the mockery, but if you can get past the intolerance and occasional aggresion, his posts are quite interesting. He has many more good than bad points, especially when it comes to nutrient interactions.
:D
 
OP
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firebreather

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No specific brand, just a good quality multi one. You don't need to go over board on them and prob take them 3 times a week.

Iron will probably be ok, but if ferritin stores are low this is not so good for thyroid patients.

This thyroid board in the UK is excellent. It sounds like you need some specific thyroid advise. I am pretty clued up on this area, but other patients may I've you some good info as well.

Men tend to do well with T4 only and a little T3. I don't like the fact NTH comes in a set ratio of T4 and T3. Very often the T3 element is too high for some people and they struggle.

Based on what you take i would be inclined to take 125 T4 and try a small starting dose of T3 of 6.25mcg or 12.5mcg (1/4 and 1/2 tablet size).

HealthUnlocked | The social network for health
No specific brand, just a good quality multi one. You don't need to go over board on them and prob take them 3 times a week.

Iron will probably be ok, but if ferritin stores are low this is not so good for thyroid patients.

This thyroid board in the UK is excellent. It sounds like you need some specific thyroid advise. I am pretty clued up on this area, but other patients may I've you some good info as well.

Men tend to do well with T4 only and a little T3. I don't like the fact NTH comes in a set ratio of T4 and T3. Very often the T3 element is too high for some people and they struggle.

Based on what you take i would be inclined to take 125 T4 and try a small starting dose of T3 of 6.25mcg or 12.5mcg (1/4 and 1/2 tablet size).

HealthUnlocked | The social network for health

Awesome, I will check out that forum.

I actually tried 100mcg of t4 a while back and a little t3 and I feel like I didn't do as well with it as I did with the NDT.

I've had blood work done a handful of times and it seems like my t4 is almost always good but my t3 and free t3 is low. Had reverse T3 checked and it was fine. t3 is always at the bottom or below the range.

Are you suggestion that I take an Iron Supplement?
 

marsaday

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Messages
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Ok so you are a poor converter.

Fatty liver is often to blame as we convert T4 to T3 in the liver. Selenium is the mineral to take to improve conversion, or brazil nuts.

With T4 and T3 you can tailer the dose ratio to fit your body. With NTH you have to take what is given as 1 grain = 36 T4 and 9 T3.

So you want to take enough T4 to get your Ft4 into the top 1/3 of the reference range. This will act as your base supply of thyroid meds. This should not be changed as the more stability the better.

You then use T3 to fine tune the body. You start low and then increase slowly. When you did T4/T3 you probably didn't get enough T3. You cannot compare NTH with T4/T3 unless you have the correct quantities. So you take 108 T4 and 27 T3 at the moment. How does that compare to when you took T4/T3 ??

I imagine a good base T4 level is 125mcg and then something like 25mcg T3 would work well. This is very similar to the 3 grains you are on now. But you still feel crappy, so you might be wanting T3 around 37.5mcg. I don't know, but T4/T3 gives you more options to try stuff out.

No don't take iron if you don't need it. But do get iron tested if you haven't already. Low iron causes poor absorption of the T3
 
OP
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firebreather

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Ok so you are a poor converter.

Fatty liver is often to blame as we convert T4 to T3 in the liver. Selenium is the mineral to take to improve conversion, or brazil nuts.

With T4 and T3 you can tailer the dose ratio to fit your body. With NTH you have to take what is given as 1 grain = 36 T4 and 9 T3.

So you want to take enough T4 to get your Ft4 into the top 1/3 of the reference range. This will act as your base supply of thyroid meds. This should not be changed as the more stability the better.

You then use T3 to fine tune the body. You start low and then increase slowly. When you did T4/T3 you probably didn't get enough T3. You cannot compare NTH with T4/T3 unless you have the correct quantities. So you take 108 T4 and 27 T3 at the moment. How does that compare to when you took T4/T3 ??

I imagine a good base T4 level is 125mcg and then something like 25mcg T3 would work well. This is very similar to the 3 grains you are on now. But you still feel crappy, so you might be wanting T3 around 37.5mcg. I don't know, but T4/T3 gives you more options to try stuff out.

No don't take iron if you don't need it. But do get iron tested if you haven't already. Low iron causes poor absorption of the T3

Some of this stuff is quite a bit different than I've heard here but nothing has worked for me yet.

Like the t4 range - RP says it should be at the bottom but maybe that's why I still feel like crap.

As far as T4/T3 vs NDT - I'm not sure why but it seems like 100mcg of t4 and 25mcg of t3 seemed like it made no difference at all whereas 3 grains of NDT feels like it at least does something. I also tried larger doses of t3.

BTW where are you thinking I can get this t4 and t3?

When I got it before it was from my doc but she stopped taking insurance and I couldn't afford her fees, especially since it wasn't making a difference.

I've found lots of meds from a certain store online in India but I don't think they have t4 and t3

I've had my iron tested a few times and it was good
 

marsaday

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Well i am in the UK and get meds my the doc and buy T3 online.

I would stick with your NTH and try using it spread as you are, but take 1 grain at 4am to see how this works. It should help with cortisol production.

Not sure if RP does say you want to be low in FT4. Range in the UK is 10-22 pmol/l and many people i see results for have lower Ft4 and are not so good. A typical healthy person is mid range (not low) and has good levels of FT3. The Ft4 and Ft3 need to be seen together. Some people have to have Ft4 over range to feel well, some are happy in the top 1/3rd.

NTH means you have lower Ft4 and higher FT3 and a suppressed TSH. Now i think this is fine for some people, but not so good for others. Some people only want a little T3 (myself included).

There is not one size fits all. This is the big problem with thyroid treatment. There are many variables which affect individual treatment. You have to experiment to find what balance fits you. This is why i find T4/T3 better to work with.

Buy Dr Blanchards thyroid function book:https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009BVWOVM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

He is the only doc i know who says T3 should be used in very small doses along with the T4. He discovered this himself over many years and has treated many patients successfully. I had already discovered this for myself, but he clarified how this all works. Unfortunately he died earlier this year, but his books are worth a read.

This perspective of small doses of T3 with normal T4 treatment is just not widely used in the treatment of thyroid and some thyroid groups are only interested in promoting one kind of treatment - NTH and its high T3 content.

If you were unwell on 100 T4 and 25 t3 it doesn't mean this won't work for you. What was your blood work on these levels ? AND how long were you on this treatment ?
 
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firebreather

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Well i am in the UK and get meds my the doc and buy T3 online.

I would stick with your NTH and try using it spread as you are, but take 1 grain at 4am to see how this works. It should help with cortisol production.

Not sure if RP does say you want to be low in FT4. Range in the UK is 10-22 pmol/l and many people i see results for have lower Ft4 and are not so good. A typical healthy person is mid range (not low) and has good levels of FT3. The Ft4 and Ft3 need to be seen together. Some people have to have Ft4 over range to feel well, some are happy in the top 1/3rd.

NTH means you have lower Ft4 and higher FT3 and a suppressed TSH. Now i think this is fine for some people, but not so good for others. Some people only want a little T3 (myself included).

There is not one size fits all. This is the big problem with thyroid treatment. There are many variables which affect individual treatment. You have to experiment to find what balance fits you. This is why i find T4/T3 better to work with.

Buy Dr Blanchards thyroid function book:https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009BVWOVM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

He is the only doc i know who says T3 should be used in very small doses along with the T4. He discovered this himself over many years and has treated many patients successfully. I had already discovered this for myself, but he clarified how this all works. Unfortunately he died earlier this year, but his books are worth a read.

This perspective of small doses of T3 with normal T4 treatment is just not widely used in the treatment of thyroid and some thyroid groups are only interested in promoting one kind of treatment - NTH and its high T3 content.

If you were unwell on 100 T4 and 25 t3 it doesn't mean this won't work for you. What was your blood work on these levels ? AND how long were you on this treatment ?

I will have a look at that book.

When I take the NTH at 4am does that need to be with food?

When I was on the t4/t3 my bloodwork was similar to the NTH - both t4 and t3 were at the low end of the range.

If I recall I was on the t4/t3 for a few months.

I just found some of my old t4 and I could get some of this t3
http://www.blueskypeptide.com/t3-liothyronine-100-mcg-per-ml-x-30ml.html

I could probably find a doc who would prescribe me t4. Maybe that's worth a try if you think the above t3 is good.

thanks for all the input
 
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marsaday

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T3 is in tablet form, usually 25mcg. Mexico pharmacies seem to sell world wide. I don't have any links though.

If you were on T4 and T3 and your Ft3 and 4 were low then quite simply you were not on enough thyroid meds. You need to post your blood test results so i can see what exactly was happening, this includes TSH.

No you don't need to take thyroid meds with food.
 
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firebreather

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T3 is in tablet form, usually 25mcg. Mexico pharmacies seem to sell world wide. I don't have any links though.

If you were on T4 and T3 and your Ft3 and 4 were low then quite simply you were not on enough thyroid meds. You need to post your blood test results so i can see what exactly was happening, this includes TSH.

No you don't need to take thyroid meds with food.

Okay, I'm at work today and don't have my bloodwork. I'll post those results tomorrow when I get home

I'll check out a pharmacy from mexico

Thanks for all your input
 
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firebreather

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@marsaday I'm at work and gonna head off to bed soon (firefighter - I know who goes to be at work lol).

I was going to try the suggestion you mentioned about taking thyroid at 4am.

I noticed on another thread that you suggest 4 hours before waking. I normally get up at 6am so that means I should take it at 2am?

But you mentioned you got the idea from Paul Robinson. At the link below he recommends starting with only 1.5 hours before waking:Circadian T3 Method (CT3M or T3CM) for Adrenals-a great way to treat your low cortisol! - Stop The Thyroid Madness

I'm a little confused. Should I take the thyroid at 4am, 4 hours before waking or 1.5 hours before waking? Like I said, I normally get up at 6am.

Thanks for your input, hoping you can respond in the next hour but no big deal if not
 

churchmouth

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I am interested where ray peat recommends lower range T4, this would be quite useful for me?

This is the case for me where my T4 is lower range but my T3 is midrange. I am very skinny and at times feeling hyper despite other times feeling cold and tired (particularly after taking cypro I am very tired, lack of cortisol 'waking' feeling).
 

marsaday

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@marsaday I'm at work and gonna head off to bed soon (firefighter - I know who goes to be at work lol).

I was going to try the suggestion you mentioned about taking thyroid at 4am.

I noticed on another thread that you suggest 4 hours before waking. I normally get up at 6am so that means I should take it at 2am?

But you mentioned you got the idea from Paul Robinson. At the link below he recommends starting with only 1.5 hours before waking:Circadian T3 Method (CT3M or T3CM) for Adrenals-a great way to treat your low cortisol! - Stop The Thyroid Madness

I'm a little confused. Should I take the thyroid at 4am, 4 hours before waking or 1.5 hours before waking? Like I said, I normally get up at 6am.

Thanks for your input, hoping you can respond in the next hour but no big deal if not


Paul does 4h's before wake up i think. He recommends starting out not so far away from waking because the effect can be strong. So the timing is also like the amount you take. So a lot of T3 and a long time before wake up is going to be a strong effect. But he is taking 25mcg T3, so he has a lot of T3 and takes it quite early.

The important thing is to understand the principals and then work with them and adjust as you see what works best.

You could maybe try just 2h's before wake up, but it is upto you. But you are correct you have to start from your actual wake up time and work backwards.

What ever you try you will need to stick with it for a period of time. I would say 2 weeks at least and then you can mess with the timing or the dose. I jumped in with 4h's but only use around 6.25 T3 per day, so my dose is low. On one grain you would be using 9mcg. This is still a lowish dose.

Hopefully you will be able to notice some differences. I did this a few yrs ago and i think it helped and i actually had a saliva test done after i tried it as had one booked. My cortisol really spiked compared to not doing it, so it does work. However i stopped doing it after a few weeks because i didn't notice many benefits. The issue then is that i was not in tune with my body and i have subsequently become much more aware of what does what to my system. So now i can see it produces really good results.
 

marsaday

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I am interested where ray peat recommends lower range T4, this would be quite useful for me?

This is the case for me where my T4 is lower range but my T3 is midrange. I am very skinny and at times feeling hyper despite other times feeling cold and tired (particularly after taking cypro I am very tired, lack of cortisol 'waking' feeling).

IF your thyroid results are ok, and you don't feel so good still, it is usually a low cortisol issue. You want to look into using the early morning T3 routine. What thyroid meds do you take and what are the blood results ?
 
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firebreather

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Paul does 4h's before wake up i think. He recommends starting out not so far away from waking because the effect can be strong. So the timing is also like the amount you take. So a lot of T3 and a long time before wake up is going to be a strong effect. But he is taking 25mcg T3, so he has a lot of T3 and takes it quite early.

The important thing is to understand the principals and then work with them and adjust as you see what works best.

You could maybe try just 2h's before wake up, but it is upto you. But you are correct you have to start from your actual wake up time and work backwards.

What ever you try you will need to stick with it for a period of time. I would say 2 weeks at least and then you can mess with the timing or the dose. I jumped in with 4h's but only use around 6.25 T3 per day, so my dose is low. On one grain you would be using 9mcg. This is still a lowish dose.

Hopefully you will be able to notice some differences. I did this a few yrs ago and i think it helped and i actually had a saliva test done after i tried it as had one booked. My cortisol really spiked compared to not doing it, so it does work. However i stopped doing it after a few weeks because i didn't notice many benefits. The issue then is that i was not in tune with my body and i have subsequently become much more aware of what does what to my system. So now i can see it produces really good results.

I will post my most recent labs at the bottom of this

Okay, I should have stated then when I wake up is not when I get up. Meaning that I always wake up in the middle of the night. For a couple years it's been usually between 2 and 4am. However a couple weeks ago I cut my fluid intake waaaay back. From roughly 80oz a day to more like 40oz a day. And there have been several nights that I haven't woken up until 5am, but it hasn't been consistent at 5am. But since I started cutting back on fluids I haven't needed to go to the bathroom until 5am even if I wake up briefly at 2:30am.

Last night didn't go as I hoped. I found several of my cytomel pills from 9 months ago so I set 12.5mcg beside my bed and figured I would take it when I woke up (since I always wake up in the early morning) before it's time to get up.

Granted I was at the fire station last night so I often don't sleep there as well but sometimes I do. Went to bed at 10pm and oddly enough woke up around 1:30am and from then on my sleep was very fitful. I think I took the 12.5mcg around 2:30 or 3am. At first I thought it was to much because my sleep continued to be fitful but again I woke up first at 1:30am. I did feel "warmer" than normal after taking it. But not long after getting up my feet were cold as is often the case and I really feel the need to urinate but that's probably cause the fitful night, not necessarily because of to much t3.

So Being that I often wake up between 2 and 5am now I'm not sure when to plan to take the t3.

I'm sure the fact that I'm a firefighter and I often get woken up at work by a very loud alarm throws a whole wrench into this situation.

Anyway here are my latest labs. This is with 3 grains of NDT - specifically Thyroid-S. I've been taking this amount for 5 months

I was wrong about my free t3 this time, it's a little better than I thought.

TSH - .11
T4 - 5.6
T4 free - .92
T3 - 129
T3 free - 3.1

Didn't get Rt3 this time
 

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