Anyone Know If Probiotics Are Safe When Dealing With Serotonin Syndrome?

nostalgic

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Is it possible for probiotics to affect brain serotonin? Serotonin can't cross the BBB from what I know.
 
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Is it possible for probiotics to affect brain serotonin? Serotonin can't cross the BBB from what I know.
Yes... Psychobiotics and the Manipulation of Bacteria–Gut–Brain Signals
One programme of research [23] investigated the effect of Bifidobacteria infantis on male Sprague–Dawley rats (n = 20) in the forced swim test, stress responses, inflammation, and monoaminergic activity. While there were no behavioural changes in swim test performance, there were significant increases of tryptophan, the serotonin precursor, in the plasma. There were also decreased concentrations of 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid, the serotonin metabolite, in the brain. This was taken as evidence of reduced serotonergic turnover. Compared to vehicle-fed rats, blood from probiotic-fed rats exhibited reduced concentrations of the pro-inflammatory cytokines tumour necrosis factor-α, interleukin-6, and interferon-γ. These reductions jointly characterise a dampened pro-inflammatory response. This approach highlights the importance of examining physiological variables in psychobiotic research, as physiological changes were noted in the absence of significant behavioural changes. ...

Recent work [25] has also studied psychobiotic-induced changes in central neurotransmitter concentrations in vivo using magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS). Healthy adult male BALB/c mice (n = 28) were administered with either Lactobacillus rhamnosus JB-1 or a vehicle for 4 weeks. Probiotic-fed mice showed elevated concentrations of glutamate and glutamine, total N-acetyl aspartate + N-acetyl aspartyl glutamic acid (tNAA), and GABA. The authors interpreted tNAA changes as a marker of alterations in neural metabolism resulting from the intervention. Glutamate is the chief excitatory neurotransmitter in the central nervous system, and, to the best of our knowledge, this is the first demonstration that it is sensitive to probiotics. The implications of concurrent elevations in both glutamate and GABA for regional excitation-inhibition balance are currently unknown, but are suggestive of an overall metabolic increase. Furthermore, because GABA and glutamate have opposing effects on neural excitability, it is possible that the total psychobiotic effect may be occurring within a zero-sum framework. The researchers also conducted periodic MRS, finding differential rates of emergence for the effects. For example, NAA increased after 2 weeks of probiotics, an elevation that was sustained for the remainder of the supplementation, and which returned to baseline 4 weeks thereafter. Glutamate and glutamine levels also increased after 2 weeks, and then remained elevated for a further 6 weeks, including 4 weeks after the intervention. Finally, GABA concentrations were only elevated in the fourth week of the intervention, but not before or after. These results represent a crucial step towards determining emergence and longevity of effects. While the general consensus is that ingestion of probiotics results in transient, rather than permanent, colonisation of the gut [26], these findings suggest both that psychobiotics may have some long-term effects, and that the effects have differential longevity.
 
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Jerimy Brown

Jerimy Brown

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Thanks for all the great info everyone... I am almost fully recovered now, and all my systems are almost back to completely normal.

I do find probiotics are pretty agreeable now, as are most milks, meats, and other dairy finally. I never had gut issues before, so glad to see those are all going away as I heal.

One weird thing, is that for some reason, I am still sensitive to certain breads, like corn bread, crumb cake, and other thick items like that (I don't really plan to have a lot of that in my diet moving forward anyway, but just something I've noticed). I did find some Quinoa seems to effect me too, not so much that I care to avoid them for some of their health benefits, again, just something I still notice sometimes.

If there is a silver lining to my experience, it's turned me into a bit of a nutrition nut, and I am reading and learning a lot... In the middle of "Brain Food" now, which so far, has been a very interesting read, with lots of overlap to Ray Peat, but it's all about eating for cognitive health.

I am also a religious food diary keeper now, so far the my fitness pal app is getting it done... Not sure if anyone else here is into keeping data like me and has found anything better, but open to suggestions ;)
 
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Jerimy Brown

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Might want to avoid:
- Green tea, cocoa, kola, banana, pomegranate. Cereals, parsley, thyme, celery and citrus fruits >Enterococcus
- Onions, capers, apples, broccoli, grapes and plums. >Bifidobacterium infantis
- Peach, plums and coffee >E. coli, Bifidobacterium sps

Table 2 -Types of dietary polyphenols present in various foods and the types of microorganisms those are responsible for the degradation.


Very interesting, because I definitely has weird reactions to Green tea, anything with Cocoa in it, many spices, and coffee, when I was at my mid-early stages of all this... I don't have issues with those items now, but I certainly did.
 

JackieH

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I was doing OK with my recovery today is 5 weeks since reaction, but yesterday, I ate half a pot of pro biotic yogurt and omg! Brain zaps body jerks and euphoria stopped me from sleeping all night and I feel awful today.

Losing the will to carry on now. I didn't realise it had live cultures, I only checked the tryptophan. Lacto acidophilus can act like an SSRI. Really hoping it gets out of my system today. My head is throwing an electrical storm. Do you think I'll have to start all over again? Help!
 
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Lamotrigine can assist recovery from antidepressant withdrawal syndrome.
It tempers the activity of the glutamatergic system and reinforces an intact GABA system.
 

JackieH

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I've been thinking about something really scary - what happens if you need strong pain killers or antibiotics in the future? Will there ever be a time where it won't precipitate SS again?
 

Etheric

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You may want to look into Bacteriophages. I take one every other day or so.

Toxinless, Dan Wich's website, has a short instructional video that is pretty good, as well as a list of available phages.

I recall watching a PBS documentary, at least 20 years ago, saying that the USSR discovered the phages to combat the gram negative bacteria. Believe it or not, they'd collect sewage run-off from hospitals, find the phages there, and study them.

We in the western countries went the antibiotic route. I'm glad we have both; there may be a symbiosis there, as the video on Toxinless intimates.
 

raypeatclips

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You may want to look into Bacteriophages. I take one every other day or so.

Toxinless, Dan Wich's website, has a short instructional video that is pretty good, as well as a list of available phages.

I recall watching a PBS documentary, at least 20 years ago, saying that the USSR discovered the phages to combat the gram negative bacteria. Believe it or not, they'd collect sewage run-off from hospitals, find the phages there, and study them.

We in the western countries went the antibiotic route. I'm glad we have both; there may be a symbiosis there, as the video on Toxinless intimates.

What issues did you have before the phages, and how have they helped you?
 

Etheric

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My issues were GERD, and I found that the phages, combined with a daily dose of .5mg of cypro (when GERD symptoms begin to appear) are helpful.

If I understand Peat correctly, endotoxin in the gut cause the body to make more serotonin, so it would seem wise to reduce the gram negatives that create endotoxin.

I know that I don't have to awaken all through the night and chew antacids or take famotidine anymore, so I'd call it a win.
 
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Jerimy Brown

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I've been thinking about something really scary - what happens if you need strong pain killers or antibiotics in the future? Will there ever be a time where it won't precipitate SS again?

I'd be curious to know if anyone has any thoughts around this too... I might be looking a surgery soon and I am terrified of the idea of having to take pain meds. I am going to discuss this at length with my doctor and will report back any of my findings, but in the mean time, does anyone know if there are pain meds that don't effect serotonin levels?
 

JackieH

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I'd be curious to know if anyone has any thoughts around this too... I might be looking a surgery soon and I am terrified of the idea of having to take pain meds. I am going to discuss this at length with my doctor and will report back any of my findings, but in the mean time, does anyone know if there are pain meds that don't effect serotonin levels?

Hi Jerimy, how have you been doing?

I would think that, since your recovery went so well, you'll probably be fine. You were even able to tolerate probiotics which was a disaster for me.

Antibiotics interfere with gut flora and some are toxic to the brain too. I read of someone who suffered a recovery setback from amoxicillin, was sensitive to benign drugs such as stool softener and even caffeine, but he felt better after eight weeks. You were doing so well that I'm sure you'll be fine, whereas I'm still struggling to get back to normal life. (bedridden 3 months +)

As for painkillers, aspirin is fine and even increases serotonin metabolism. Probably not strong enough for post op, but would opiods be OK? I mean, so long as they are not combined with any other drug that can precipitate SS. Speak to your preoperative team and let them know your history. So far I haven't found a single antibiotic that doesn't interact with serotonin except rifaxamin, but because it's poorly absorbed, it has a very specific and narrow therapeutic range.
 
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Jerimy Brown

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Recently had a bit of a relapse with my serotonin syndrome recovery, and seemed to be much more sensitive to everything than the initial go round. My wife just happened to be reading a book on health and shared a chapter of the book about drinking celery juice. I started drinking 16oz of celery juice, very first thing in the morning on an empty stomach about a week ago, and I can not express what this seems to have done for my guy health… I couldn’t eat anything but rice, and steamed potatoes a week ago, and this morning after my morning celery juice, I had turkey, potatoes, green beans, made a wild blueberry smoothie, and I am barely feeling any effects from it. I just had to come share this with this community, and hopefully it will really help someone else, the way it has helped me.

Probably depends on the type of juicer you have, but if you have a good masticating juicer, about 24 fl oz of celery, should yield 16 oz of pulp free juice. You should juice it as close to the time you plan to drinking it as possible. You can do it the night before if kept in an airtight mason jar, but I recommend juicing it right before you drink it. Drink this first thing in the morning, on an empty stomach. From what I understand, you can do this twice a day for even more dramatic results (2nd time, make sure you wait at least 2 hours from previous meal), so I am getting ready to start twice daily juices today. One note of warning, I got really positive effects the first several days, then for a couple days, I got diarrhea after, but today the that went away, and I felt like I turned another corner with my gut health, so I tried a full fledged meal this morning,(mentioned above) and was shocked to find I did not get any of the usual negative effects. I always give the juice about .5-1hour before following it with food.

I really hope this helps others the way it has helped me.
 

m1210

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I am also a religious food diary keeper now, so far the my fitness pal app is getting it done... Not sure if anyone else here is into keeping data like me and has found anything better, but open to suggestions ;)

I'm thinking of trying a calender/daily schedule app with time slots and put everything at the right time that I did/take them. That way it'll be easier to see everything at a glance and at the right time/order. I haven't started a proper journal yet, currently using another health app's calender section that doesn't have time slots. Not sure if it'll work better, do you think?

I saw your post that you got better after taking celery juice in the morning after a 'relapse'. I was wondering if it could be that your body simply healed by that time because your body has already been healed to a great extent, rather than the celery juice? I'm thinking of trying it but I heard that celery has anti-anxiety/stress effect, and therefore could potentially affect serotonin/cause issues for me (personally)...hope it works

Also, I was wondering, if time was really what it took for you to get better? Is there anything you have done that has helped you? Does coconut oil help? Goat milk (supposedly good for gut flora @Constatine)? I'm currently trying to keep my serotonin level down by severely limiting tryptophan and eating bamboo shoots. My biggest concern is that chronically high serotonin levels can cause fibrosis in the veins and organs. I feel tightness/mild pain/weird sensation in the heart/liver/veins/etc. when I have high serotonin levels. So my goal is to keep my serotonin level at as little as I can while I recover. Any suggestions for me? I'm really hoping to speed up the process, thanks!
 
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Jerimy Brown

Jerimy Brown

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Hey everyone... Been a while since I have checked in, but things are progressing nicely in my recovery, eating well rounded healthy meals again, practicing yoga everyday, which has done more for my mental state than I know how to express, even though it never appealed to me before this ;). After that first mistake and relapsing myself like that, this has been a 6 month (or longer) marathon trudge of misery and discomfort, so needless to say I am overly cautious about everything now, even though I am feeling so good.

I wanted to share something with this group, just in case it might help someone.

A really good friend of mine saw something pretty interesting at the last CES, and said he thought of me after watching me go through all my gut issues with my serotonin syndrome.

I am in no way affiliated with this company and my recovery has been going so well, after my elimination diet, that I haven't purchased one of these yet, so can't speak to it's effectiveness. That being said, it's so cheap, that if I had seen this earlier on in my recovery, I would have happily dropped that money on anything that might have helped.

This might be helpful to anyone experiencing gut issues.

FoodMarble
 

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