Anyone Else Getting Increased Estrogen From T3/ASPIRIN/CYPRO/PROGESTERONE

[ddjd]

Myself and a few other members on the forum have all noted how these specific things which Peat says are anti estrogen - cypro, t3, progesterone, aspirin - all cause an increase in Estrogen in our bodies (man boobs, puffiness, bloated, fluid retention etc. )

Conversely, Ive personally noted how other Aromatase Inhibitors, do work very well. Namely:

Activated Charcoal
Carrots
B1 + B2
Androsterone
Vit E
Vit A
5aDHP
11KetoDHT
Lugols Iodine

The difference is that the second list, makes my belly flatter, no fluid retention, no dandruff, no frequent urination, reduced puffiness etc.

Why could it be that for a small percentage of us T3, prog, Aspirin and cypro seem to increase our estrogen?

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Maybe these things just cause water retention, not estrogen. I really doubt estrogen, these things all decrease it. Blood tests?

 

[Tarmander]

This is something I have noticed when taking tyromix and other metabolic stimulants. There are bottlenecks on metabolism. I think when this forum first started and rays stuff really started to get some experimentation behind it, there was the idea that if you ate enough, you could stimulate your metabolism almost indefinitely. Matt stone pushed this quite a bit. Eat and eat and eat for heat.

Sadly it doesn’t work that way. The things you mentioned as lowering estrogen all work very well in counteracting the sides when you push metabolism too much.

This is how I deal with it. If you start to get the estrogen like effects, you are bottlenecking on metabolism and continually pushing more caffeine or thyroid or whatever is going to just make your more waterlogged, and age. Find the things that dry you out, and take stress off your kidneys. Then add thyroid and stay on that balance beam where you are not getting the sides, but also increasing metabolism. Work on all the stress factors. Basically stress+metabolic stimulation= estrogen like symptoms. Remember the more stress you have, the more it is stimulating your metabolism as well as the thyroid or other supps.

The idea situation is to lower all stress to zero, then use thyroid. I have found the combination of stress and thyroid worse then just stress. But thyroid without stress, when I get a couple days to lay around, is truely magical and anti aging.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Excess T3 will do that. I started to get puffy and itchy nipples while I was on Cynomel long before I started feeling better from it, and so I realised that this approach doesn't really work. I stopped taking thyroid hormones a long time ago anyway, fixing your own thyroid is the way to go.

However I have not had such effects from aspirin which indeed did seem to tilt more towards androgen balance in my experience - I was more determined and less afraid to speak my mind and even be rude when necessary.

 

[Waynish]

Maybe cause an effect are not as clear as everyone is letting on.

 

[Diokine]

@Tarmander

I like that explanation.

One thing common to nearly everything on your list is that it either augments the parasympathetic cholinergic system, or reduces the effect of adrenergic sympathetic system. The presence of inflammation in the brain increases peripheral sympathetic nervous activity and increases COX2 expression. I think the increase in COX and production of prostanoids and ecosanoids is a compensatory mechanism which attempts to modulate the activity of sympathetic nervous system activity, inhibiting nerve activity in some tissues and enhancing adrenergic signalling in other tissues. Epinepherine in general stimulates production of cyclic AMP and encourages retention of it, changing the kinetics of ionized calcium flux, driving metabolism. Prostaglandins act similarly, though long term they severely restrict the sensitivity of tissues to nervous control over metabolism. This reduction in sensitivity is mediated partly through the actions of estrogen, which works to modulate cholinergic nerve signalling.

So I think noticing an increase in estrogenic symptoms represents either an increase in parasympathetic cholinergic nervous activity, or a reduction in adrenergic sensitivity. Thyroid hormone is interesting because it seems to increase sensitivity to both adrenergic and cholinergic signalling, and I think excessive prostaglandin activity and inflammation (generalized increased parasympathetic tone) may explain some of the effects seen upon its supplementation. Proper sympathetic maintenance including proper vitamin D levels, ascorbic acid, thiamine, etc., may help in achieving good balance.

 

[Wagner83]

HYPERTHYROIDISM AND HYPERPROLACTINEMIA: IS THERE ANY ASSOCIATION? - PubMed - NCBI

Endocr Pract. 2016 Dec;22(12):1377-1382. Epub 2016 Aug 19.
HYPERTHYROIDISM AND HYPERPROLACTINEMIA: IS THERE ANY ASSOCIATION?
Sanjari M, Safi Z, Tahroodi KM.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To compare the serum prolactin level in hyperthyroid and normal control females. Hyperthyroidism is a common disease. Although a direct association has been demonstrated between hypothyroidism and increased prolactin levels, this association has not been established for hyperthyroidism.

METHODS:
Cross-sectional study in cases and control groups. Control subjects were chosen from those participating in the Kerman Coronary Artery Disease Risk Factors study. To select the cases, all women referred to the laboratories of Kerman with a thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) level ≤0.5 mIU/L who met the inclusion criteria were entered in the study. A total of 231 women aged 15 to 50 years were enrolled. The case group included 71 hyperthyroid women, and the control group included 160 women with normal thyroid function matched by age.

RESULTS:
The mean (SD) serum level of prolactin was 16.56 (0.97) ng/mL (95% confidence interval [CI], 15.41 ng/mL to 15.71 ng/mL) in the controls and 23.07 (1.49) ng/mL (95% CI, 22.7 ng/mL to 23.4 ng/mL) in the case subjects. Hyperprolactinemia was more common in the hyperthyroid group (16.5 [0.97] ng/mL versus 23.07 [1.49] ng/mL; P<.001). The prolactin level decreased with age. Hyperthyroidism and estradiol increased the prolactin level. After adjusting for age and estradiol, hyperthyroidism increased the serum prolactin level (P<.001).

CONCLUSION:
The results of this study revealed that hyperprolactinemia is more frequent in hyperthyroid females. Serum prolactin level can be increased in hyperthyroidism.

ABBREVIATIONS:
PRL = prolactin T4 = thyroxine TRH = thyrotropin-releasing hormone TSH = thyroid-stimulating hormone.

 

[tomisonbottom]

This is something I have noticed when taking tyromix and other metabolic stimulants. There are bottlenecks on metabolism. I think when this forum first started and rays stuff really started to get some experimentation behind it, there was the idea that if you ate enough, you could stimulate your metabolism almost indefinitely. Matt stone pushed this quite a bit. Eat and eat and eat for heat.

Sadly it doesn’t work that way. The things you mentioned as lowering estrogen all work very well in counteracting the sides when you push metabolism too much.

This is how I deal with it. If you start to get the estrogen like effects, you are bottlenecking on metabolism and continually pushing more caffeine or thyroid or whatever is going to just make your more waterlogged, and age. Find the things that dry you out, and take stress off your kidneys.

I think I know what you mean, but curious, what things do you specifically do to "dry you out" when that happens to you?

 

[DaveFoster]

Cortisol can mask symptoms of estrogen dominance by lowering inflammation.

 

[schultz]

Cortisol can mask symptoms of estrogen dominance by lowering inflammation.

Interesting. I didn't think of that angle. That makes anecdotal evidence that much more useless.

 

[Tarmander]

I think I know what you mean, but curious, what things do you specifically do to "dry you out" when that happens to you?

Cafeine and HCL both make my lips drier. There are other options if you search them on the forum.

 

[ddjd]

@Tarmander @schultz @DaveFoster @tomisonbottom @Wagner83 @Diokine @Waynish @MyUsernameHere @BigYellowLemon

Just to follow up to this.

I've been experimenting with tyromix instead of Tyronene, and the T4 + T3 together has a lot lot less Estrogenic effects than just the T3 alone.

Anyone know why this would be

 

[Wagner83]

Something simple to consider:
How much T3 did you take with tyronene ? How much do you take now with tyromix?

 

[ddjd]

Something simple to consider:
How much T3 did you take with tyronene ? How much do you take now with tyromix?

I always take two drops. So supposedly in Tyronene that would be 16mcg

Versus

6mcg in T3

It's a good point

 

[Kartoffel]

HYPERTHYROIDISM AND HYPERPROLACTINEMIA: IS THERE ANY ASSOCIATION? - PubMed - NCBI

Endocr Pract. 2016 Dec;22(12):1377-1382. Epub 2016 Aug 19.
HYPERTHYROIDISM AND HYPERPROLACTINEMIA: IS THERE ANY ASSOCIATION?
Sanjari M, Safi Z, Tahroodi KM.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To compare the serum prolactin level in hyperthyroid and normal control females. Hyperthyroidism is a common disease. Although a direct association has been demonstrated between hypothyroidism and increased prolactin levels, this association has not been established for hyperthyroidism.

METHODS:
Cross-sectional study in cases and control groups. Control subjects were chosen from those participating in the Kerman Coronary Artery Disease Risk Factors study. To select the cases, all women referred to the laboratories of Kerman with a thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) level ≤0.5 mIU/L who met the inclusion criteria were entered in the study. A total of 231 women aged 15 to 50 years were enrolled. The case group included 71 hyperthyroid women, and the control group included 160 women with normal thyroid function matched by age.

RESULTS:
The mean (SD) serum level of prolactin was 16.56 (0.97) ng/mL (95% confidence interval [CI], 15.41 ng/mL to 15.71 ng/mL) in the controls and 23.07 (1.49) ng/mL (95% CI, 22.7 ng/mL to 23.4 ng/mL) in the case subjects. Hyperprolactinemia was more common in the hyperthyroid group (16.5 [0.97] ng/mL versus 23.07 [1.49] ng/mL; P<.001). The prolactin level decreased with age. Hyperthyroidism and estradiol increased the prolactin level. After adjusting for age and estradiol, hyperthyroidism increased the serum prolactin level (P<.001).

CONCLUSION:
The results of this study revealed that hyperprolactinemia is more frequent in hyperthyroid females. Serum prolactin level can be increased in hyperthyroidism.

ABBREVIATIONS:
PRL = prolactin T4 = thyroxine TRH = thyrotropin-releasing hormone TSH = thyroid-stimulating hormone.

Labeling everything below a TSH of .5 is an interesting definition of hyperthyroidism...

Correlation of Prolactin and Thyroid Hormone Concentration with Menstrual Patterns in Infertile Women

"Hyperprolactinemia was depicted in 41% of the infertile women while it was only 15% in the control group. The infertile women with hypothyroidism had significantly higher prolactin levels when compared to the subjects with hyper- or euthyroidism. There was a significant association between abnormal menstrual patterns and anovulatory cycles, as observed on endometrial examination of infertile subjects with raised serum prolactin levels."

[Prolactin secretion in hyperthyroid individuals]. - PubMed - NCBI

Abstract
Several endocrine and metabolic changes occur in hyperthyroidism, among which also changes in prolactin secretion are present. Causes are numerous. However, a decreased content of prolactin in secretory granules of the lactotrophic cells in the adeno-hypophysis gland, e.i. a decreased prolactin pool, should be especially emphasized. Prolactin secretion of the adeno-hypophysis gland was examined in 30 hyperthyroid patients. Normoprolacinaemia was diagnosed in basal conditions, but prolactin response was not so great during stimulation tests (test with thyrotropic hormone and eglonylic test) and suppression tests (L-DOPA and bromo-cryptic test). This finding suggests the existence of a decreased prolactin pool in hyperthyroidism.

 

[thisoldtown1978]

Myself and a few other members on the forum have all noted how these specific things which Peat says are anti estrogen - cypro, t3, progesterone, aspirin - all cause an increase in Estrogen in our bodies (man boobs, puffiness, bloated, fluid retention etc. )

Conversely, Ive personally noted how other Aromatase Inhibitors, do work very well. Namely:

Activated Charcoal
Carrots
B1 + B2
Androsterone
Vit E
Vit A
5aDHP
11KetoDHT
Lugols Iodine

The difference is that the second list, makes my belly flatter, no fluid retention, no dandruff, no frequent urination, reduced puffiness etc.

Why could it be that for a small percentage of us T3, prog, Aspirin and cypro seem to increase our estrogen?

It seems as though many of the substances on your second list are things that the body needs to produce the things on your first list. By ramping up your metabolism without adequate nutrients such as vitamin A, E, Bs, iodine etc, you’re basically trying to run on empty, which might be why your body is producing estrogen. Even activated charcoal takes away stress from the digestive system, allowing the body to function normally. I would make doubly sure you’re meeting ALL nutrient and calorie requirements before introducing any exogenous hormones and stimulants, even caffeine.

 

[Kartoffel]

@Joeyd

I think the most likely explanation is low blood glucose and energy depletion. Frequent urination is a sign of low blood glucose and inefficient metabolism. I have read about many people that became severly hypothyroid and hypoglycemic after taking T3 or synthetic thyroid like Cynoplus etc.

 

[schultz]

@Tarmander @schultz @DaveFoster @tomisonbottom @Wagner83 @Diokine @Waynish @MyUsernameHere @BigYellowLemon

Just to follow up to this.

I've been experimenting with tyromix instead of Tyronene, and the T4 + T3 together has a lot lot less Estrogenic effects than just the T3 alone.

Anyone know why this would be

@Wagner83 seems to have pointed out that your dosing was different on the two products which could be the problem. I think a benefit of the T3 + T4 would be a more even boost with less ups and downs. You could almost think of the T4 as a "time release" and T3 as "fast acting". At night you're unable to take T3 when you're asleep so the T4 can fill in. I'm making broad assumptions and oversimplifying, but this is sort of the way I think about it. If you really do need thyroid and you're only taking T3, a big stretch of time between doses could cause some kind of temporary hypothyroidism. Ray mentioned using only T3 himself, I believe it was in the morning (like 1 big dose), and by the next morning he would be experiencing negative symptoms. I'm not sure I'm getting the anecdote right, maybe someone can correct it if it's wrong?

16mcg vs 6mcg is a pretty big difference. How often were you dosing the 2 drops of T3?

 

[Tarmander]

@Tarmander @schultz @DaveFoster @tomisonbottom @Wagner83 @Diokine @Waynish @MyUsernameHere @BigYellowLemon

Just to follow up to this.

I've been experimenting with tyromix instead of Tyronene, and the T4 + T3 together has a lot lot less Estrogenic effects than just the T3 alone.

Anyone know why this would be

Yup, my experience exactly...16mcg of t3 at once is way too much...

 

[ddjd]

@Tarmander @schultz @DaveFoster @tomisonbottom @Wagner83 @Diokine @Waynish @MyUsernameHere @BigYellowLemon

ive worked out that my fatty liver causes the estrogenic response to t3. If i have a completely zero fat breakfast, just fruit and then take t3, i dont get any estrogenic response to t3.

but t3 (even a low dose) after a meal high in fat, particularly dairy fats causes terrible estrogenic symptomns. I think its all related to the liver being overburdened.