Anybody Here Working With Anemia And Herpes Too?

[Birdie]

The foods to help Iron Deficiency Anemia and Herpes (Zoster/Shingles and other Herpes viruses) seem to be in conflict quite often.

I am working on a food plan, supplement plan that will be healing for both. Am adjusting my take on RP's advice, not abandoning it, but changing foods emphasized.

Maybe somebody else is going in this direction? For example, adjusting the lysine/arginine ratio helps a lot of people reduce the frequency of herpes attacks. At the same time, some high lysine low arginine foods can block iron absorption.

Have formed and am forming a plan of attack and hope to heck to be on the right track! Will be using blood labs to measure Anemia progress as well as noticing how I feel. The H. zoster will be measured by attack only. I don't get more than a couple of bumps but can recognize the weird pain and itch that identifies it.
Both produce fatigue and brain bog as you prob know...

 

[Giraffe]

Birdie, what makes you think it is iron deficiency anemia? Could your blood markers for iron be low due the herpes infection?

For hemolytic anemia Peat recommended vitamin E, progesterone and thyroid.

 

[Birdie]

Birdie, what makes you think it is iron deficiency anemia? Could your blood markers for iron be low due the herpes infection?

For hemolytic anemia Peat recommended vitamin E, progesterone and thyroid.

Thanks for that question Giraffe. Yes, for about 4 years I've been going that anemia approach Ray advises for most cases.
I've resisted the up yer iron approach. I did doxy and minocycline and do the sulfur at times. Aspirin, etc.

My last labs were done January 2015. I went for a new set this week. I'll get the results next week.
Hard to tell about the Zoster affecting the results. No rash at all now.
I immediately treat it when it hits. Never lasts long. Rash smaller than a dime. I do get sick with it.

The trouble is that the Zoster is lurking so could affect some results.
And, since I had polio, that virus stays around too.
But, the low Ferritin has a pattern that leads me to think it's low iron in this case.

I take vitamin E (30 years), Progest-E (4 or 5 years) and have taken thyroid for 20 years.

I don't just go by Ferritin, but will use that as the measure for simplicity.
Mine was 30 (15 - 180 range) in 2008.
Still in range for October 4, 2011.

I gave blood in late October 2011.
In July 2012 Ferritin was 7 (10 - 120 range).
I think this pointed to the low iron cause. No known infection going on, but even if there was....
Anyway, I continued with all the iron blockers we use around here.

In Feb 2013 Ferritin was 3 (10 - 120).
RBC Morphology was done 2013, showing irregular sizes and shapes.
Mucosa is pale.

Went up to 7 in January 2015 without supplementing.
Still continued with Ray's advice given for most cases.

My Hct was always low normal, which also led me to relax and just wait for the Ferritin to rise without using iron supplement.
I think all was well until I gave blood. Obviously, in retrospect, I shouldn't have done it.

I'd like to skip the aspirin for a while but need it at night so will continue.

 

[Giraffe]

@Birdie, I thought of you when I found this review. Among other things they discuss anemia and impaired iron handling in riboflavin deficiency.

Riboflavin (vitamin B-2) and health

Other vitamin B2 deficiency diseases/disorders are:
glossitis, cheilosis, seborrheic dermatitis, corneal vascularization.

The dietary intake of vitamin B2 on a Peat inspired diet is more than adequate for healthy people. Liver and dairy products are high in vitamin B2.

 

[Birdie]

@Giraffe
Thank you for thinking of me. And thank you for reminding me to update here.
I must have updated only my log, but my last test results showed that I am out of the anemia zone.

That said, those tests may not be valid because I'd begun taking bis-glycinate iron the week before.
You need to stop any iron supplements 5 days before the blood draw to get reliable results.
So, I probably need to go back to working on the anemia.

With the way I was following Peat, using iron blocker foods, anemia was pretty inevitable since I had been eating a low iron absorbing diet for many years.This is probably not the case for most people. As we know, Ray says to understand your physiology and arrange your food plan from there and that he advises no specific diet.

So, I'm not saying everyone will get anemic following this way of eating. But it was inevitable that I would become anemic, without making the right adjustments according to my starting point with iron.

 

[Birdie]

But some of the B2 deficiency signs are right on. But my B2 intake is good. Some of the iron deficiency symptoms I recall are the same as B2 deficiency.

 

[Pointless]

I used to have low ferritin, as low as yours was. I took a B2 supplement and K2 in the morning every day, and I raised my ferritin. Polysaccharide iron wasn't helping, so I stopped taking the iron and started with B2 and K2. B2 from food or regular B-complexes wasn't enough. Try a single high-dose Riboflavin capsule along with 1-2 mg MK-4 every morning with food and maybe your iron pill at the same time. You can decide for yourself whether you want to continue with iron supplementation, but this will only help.

 

[Birdie]

Thanks @Pointless. I do take that amount of the K daily same time as iron.
I take B2 supplement in addition to food.

I had tried this method without iron for about 3 years before deciding I'd better go for the iron after all.
The iron seemed to be working but I stopped it after my Ferritin went up to I think 40.
Going back to it since deciding the lab results might not have been valid.
And some hair loss started up after I stopped the iron.

Taking 1 tab: vit C 100, iron bis-glycinate 25mg. And not using iron blocking foods... as much as possible.

 

[bionicheart]

Thanks @Pointless. I do take that amount of the K daily same time as iron.
I take B2 supplement in addition to food.

I had tried this method without iron for about 3 years before deciding I'd better go for the iron after all.
The iron seemed to be working but I stopped it after my Ferritin went up to I think 40.
Going back to it since deciding the lab results might not have been valid.
And some hair loss started up after I stopped the iron.

Taking 1 tab: vit C 100, iron bis-glycinate 25mg. And not using iron blocking foods... as much as possible.

Hey @Birdie I know this post was about a year ago, but I wanted to ask how you're doing now...? Has the iron supplement help alleviate your anemia symptoms? I've been battling it for about 2 years and my numbers started climbing back up after introducing mega food blood builder, but the iron is created from yeast, so I don't want to take it anymore as I have a history of anxiety and IBS.
I'm only 27 and my periods are pretty normal, EXCEPT this past cycle has been heavier/longer than normal (after eating more "peaty" for about 6 weeks prior) according to Peat's articles (haven't read all yet..) he's very anti-iron supplements... I tried taking aspirin for the increased pain, but it also increased the dark circles under my eyes, so i knew wasn't helping my anemia. My hair is starting to come out when I shower again so I feel like I should get back on an iron supplement.
I'm about to buy thorne's iron bisglycinate 25mg and thinking about taking it before bed with OJ... away from any dairy/caffeine....
hope you're feeling better and any advice would be much appreciated!! Thanks :)

 

[Birdie]

Hey @Birdie I know this post was about a year ago, but I wanted to ask how you're doing now...? Has the iron supplement help alleviate your anemia symptoms? I've been battling it for about 2 years and my numbers started climbing back up after introducing mega food blood builder, but the iron is created from yeast, so I don't want to take it anymore as I have a history of anxiety and IBS.
I'm only 27 and my periods are pretty normal, EXCEPT this past cycle has been heavier/longer than normal (after eating more "peaty" for about 6 weeks prior) according to Peat's articles (haven't read all yet..) he's very anti-iron supplements... I tried taking aspirin for the increased pain, but it also increased the dark circles under my eyes, so i knew wasn't helping my anemia. My hair is starting to come out when I shower again so I feel like I should get back on an iron supplement.
I'm about to buy thorne's iron bisglycinate 25mg and thinking about taking it before bed with OJ... away from any dairy/caffeine....
hope you're feeling better and any advice would be much appreciated!! Thanks :)

Yes, RP doesn't think iron sups are helpful in most cases. I'm not taking any iron now and seem to be past the anemia. What are the ingredients in the Thorne?

My hair tends to fall out more after a couple of dark months and continues through winter. It gets better with sunshine I think.
But when I was anemic, a lot did come out in the shower.
Sounds like you're going to take a low dose of that iron. It worked for me that way. I sure didn't like taking it, and quit as soon as I could..

Also, I quit blocking the iron from liver or meat for a few months.
Are you eating liver? I did up the calves liver. Also, I looked up foods that block iron absorption just to be sure I wasn't doing too much of them.

 

[bionicheart]

Yes, RP doesn't think iron sups are helpful in most cases. I'm not taking any iron now and seem to be past the anemia. What are the ingredients in the Thorne?

My hair tends to fall out more after a couple of dark months and continues through winter. It gets better with sunshine I think.
But when I was anemic, a lot did come out in the shower.
Sounds like you're going to take a low dose of that iron. It worked for me that way. I sure didn't like taking it, and quit as soon as I could..

Also, I quit blocking the iron from liver or meat for a few months.
Are you eating liver? I did up the calves liver. Also, I looked up foods that block iron absorption just to be sure I wasn't doing too much of them.

Thanks!! SO it seems getting enough sunlight or supplementing with vitamin D may be a better choice to start with over the iron...?
I haven't tried liver, but I'm coming from being vegetarian for 11 years so it's a bit difficult eating anything other than shrimp... even though I try to eat red meat once a month if I can stomach it. :/
I bought some powdered liver supplements from New Zealand, grassfed cattle, but haven't been taking them regularly after reading how they may not be helpful due to the dehydrated state.
I'm also afraid to take anything that will increase my copper, because i had a copper IUD, for a few months then had it removed (it migrated!!) and I'm pretty certain I've had copper toxicity for a while. I tried balancing it with zinc but the zinc gluconate made me sick for days.
May I ask why you didn't like taking the iron? (I know a lot of people tend to get GI issues with iron supps, but everyone seems to be raving about how much certain brands have helped them.) My grandmother takes iron supps every day since she was 50 (75) now, and she's in great health... I just don't want to feel tired and the heart palps, anxiety etc.. anymore
Thorne's ingredients are:
Iron (as Ferochel Ferrous Bisglycinate Chelate) 25 mg
Other Ingredients
Hypromellose (derived from cellulose) capsule, microcrystalline cellulose, leucine, silicon dioxide.

Thanks again @Birdie

 

[bionicheart]

never mind the "why you didn't like taking iron" i'm reading the Peat's "iron's dangers" article right now

 

[aliciahere]

Just something to add to the mix. I used to get cold sores all the time! I also suffered from low ferritin. It ended up that I was celiac. Once I got that under control, my cold sore attacks went away. I rarely get them now. My ferritin is also up though it is on the lower side.

Loosing hair is generally a sign that you are low thyroid, or you aren't getting enough protein.

 

[Samya]

I'm not sure about anemia but I've had coldsores (HSV) breakouts on my lips for as long as I can remember. I'd usually have a breakout once or twice a year during periods of stress, the worst being after alcohol & drugs. I haven't had a significant break out for a couple of years now *knocks on wood* and the main thing that's changed in my diet has been eating more animal protein. I really do feel there is something to the lysine:arginine advice often given.

 

[Birdie]

I'm not sure about anemia but I've had coldsores (HSV) breakouts on my lips for as long as I can remember. I'd usually have a breakout once or twice a year during periods of stress, the worst being after alcohol & drugs. I haven't had a significant break out for a couple of years now *knocks on wood* and the main thing that's changed in my diet has been eating more animal protein. I really do feel there is something to the lysine:arginine advice often given.

I agree. Some say it doesn't help them to watch the lysine/arginine ratio, but it sure helps me.

But, when I first started following RP I got more breakouts with the gelatin and orange juice. I had to cut back on oj and use more apple juice.

I used to make a lot of oj jello and ate it every day. Anyway, I've had to modify to suit my situation. Or try!! Trial and error.

 

[Birdie]

Just something to add to the mix. I used to get cold sores all the time! I also suffered from low ferritin. It ended up that I was celiac. Once I got that under control, my cold sore attacks went away. I rarely get them now. My ferritin is also up though it is on the lower side.

Loosing hair is generally a sign that you are low thyroid, or you aren't getting enough protein.

Hair loss can be a sign of too much thyroid too. This winter, when I added extra NDT for the darkness, I got big hair loss.
Had to reduce it a little to stop it. Such a balance isn't it.

 

[Birdie]

never mind the "why you didn't like taking iron" i'm reading the Peat's "iron's dangers" article right now

 

[bionicheart]

Just something to add to the mix. I used to get cold sores all the time! I also suffered from low ferritin. It ended up that I was celiac. Once I got that under control, my cold sore attacks went away. I rarely get them now. My ferritin is also up though it is on the lower side.

Loosing hair is generally a sign that you are low thyroid, or you aren't getting enough protein.

I think it's safe to say I've never consumed adequate protein, still struggling with this as I recently quit certain substances and have zero appetite so getting a lot of my calories from liquid (milk, OJ, gelatin in coffee) and string cheese here and there... thanks @aliciahere ! i'll push through the nausea and see if more protein helps

Hair loss can be a sign of too much thyroid too. This winter, when I added extra NDT for the darkness, I got big hair loss.
Had to reduce it a little to stop it. Such a balance isn't it.

I have a feeling I'm hyperthyroid at times, (easily become underweight, high HR, high body temp, lots of adrenaline rushes) increased salt intake seems to make my symptoms worse and even cause panic attacks! the only thing that seems to help are benzos (which i hate taking) and beta blockers like nadolol. (I was on carvedilol for 6 years and quit 2 years ago and am considering experimenting with them again) so I don't know if my body is trying to overcompensate for POSSIBLY being hypo during that time period...the doctors keep telling me it's "just anxiety" -_-
also, I have never supplemented with thyroid, stimulants of any kind create excess adrenaline/anxiety. I still get symptoms from a single cup of coffee full of honey and/or pure sugar with gelatin and milk....very frustrating. getting my labs done next week to see where I'm at. :/
thanks for sharing your experiences!!

 

[Zpol]

I certainly don't have the secret to great health figured out yet but I could throw a couple things out there for your consideration... (I too have Herpes Zoster breakouts, I don't know about anemia though, haven't been tested in more that a year)

a) Anemia may work out to your advantage...

"Circulating Biomarkers of Iron Storage and Clearance of Incident Human Papillomavirus Infection(3) Free full text

The researchers in this 2012 study provided this background and hypothesis: "Iron is an essential mineral for both cellular and pathogen survival and is essential for viral replication. In turn, iron metabolism has been shown to be altered by several viral infections. However, little is known regarding the association between iron status and HPV natural history. We hypothesize iron to be an HPV-cofactor that is associated with longer duration of infection." "Ferritin and soluble transferrin receptor (sTfR) were measured in baseline serum samples from 327 women." "Women with ferritin levels above the median were less likely to clear an incident oncogenic HPV... and HPV-16 infections ... Using physiological cut-points, women with enriched iron stores (>120dg/mL) were less likely to clear incident oncogenic HPV infections compared to those with low-levels of iron (<20dgm/L)( AHR=0.34; 95%CI 0.15-0.81). the researchers concluded, "This study observed that women with the highest ferritin levels were less likely to clear incident oncogenic and HPV-16 infections compared to women with low ferritin. Rising iron stores may decrease probability of clearing new HPV infection, possibly by promoting viral activity and contributing to oxidative DNA damage. Impact: This novel study suggests that elevated iron stores may put women at risk for persistent HPV infection, an early event in cervical carcinogenesis. Further examination of the association between iron status and HPV natural history is warranted."

All this considered... if you are eating foods high in iron to correct the anemia than you may be increasing your viral replication.

and, catch 22, "In turn, iron metabolism has been shown to be altered by several viral infections." So, obviously we are always going to have these viruses, but what do we do?!... I'm thinking Quercetin might be helpful because it is the only antioxidant that doesn't turn into a pro-oxidant. And I'm currently looking into Glutathione, either topical or suppositories, as it is the 'master' anti-oxidant.

b) I believe RP mentioned anemia is usually a result of low thyroid but I'm guessing you already read about that, since here you are
Do you use your Temp's and pulses to determine thyroid status? or do you depend on blood lab work?

c) Do you get enough protein? I need 80grams per day (i'm petite) but I find it's hard to get without a protein powder. I found this one works pretty well and doesn't cause flare ups, as it doesn't contain collagen, it's made from grass fed beef muscle meat. It's not ideal, but like you, I also have to make some modifications to RP's basic diet suggestions.
Paleo Protein™ – Vanilla Nut

 

[lollipop]

I certainly don't have the secret to great health figured out yet but I could throw a couple things out there for your consideration... (I too have Herpes Zoster breakouts, I don't know about anemia though, haven't been tested in more that a year)

a) Anemia may work out to your advantage...

"Circulating Biomarkers of Iron Storage and Clearance of Incident Human Papillomavirus Infection(3) Free full text

The researchers in this 2012 study provided this background and hypothesis: "Iron is an essential mineral for both cellular and pathogen survival and is essential for viral replication. In turn, iron metabolism has been shown to be altered by several viral infections. However, little is known regarding the association between iron status and HPV natural history. We hypothesize iron to be an HPV-cofactor that is associated with longer duration of infection." "Ferritin and soluble transferrin receptor (sTfR) were measured in baseline serum samples from 327 women." "Women with ferritin levels above the median were less likely to clear an incident oncogenic HPV... and HPV-16 infections ... Using physiological cut-points, women with enriched iron stores (>120dg/mL) were less likely to clear incident oncogenic HPV infections compared to those with low-levels of iron (<20dgm/L)( AHR=0.34; 95%CI 0.15-0.81). the researchers concluded, "This study observed that women with the highest ferritin levels were less likely to clear incident oncogenic and HPV-16 infections compared to women with low ferritin. Rising iron stores may decrease probability of clearing new HPV infection, possibly by promoting viral activity and contributing to oxidative DNA damage. Impact: This novel study suggests that elevated iron stores may put women at risk for persistent HPV infection, an early event in cervical carcinogenesis. Further examination of the association between iron status and HPV natural history is warranted."

All this considered... if you are eating foods high in iron to correct the anemia than you may be increasing your viral replication.

and, catch 22, "In turn, iron metabolism has been shown to be altered by several viral infections." So, obviously we are always going to have these viruses, but what do we do?!... I'm thinking Quercetin might be helpful because it is the only antioxidant that doesn't turn into a pro-oxidant. And I'm currently looking into Glutathione, either topical or suppositories, as it is the 'master' anti-oxidant.

b) I believe RP mentioned anemia is usually a result of low thyroid but I'm guessing you already read about that, since here you are
Do you use your Temp's and pulses to determine thyroid status? or do you depend on blood lab work?

c) Do you get enough protein? I need 80grams per day (i'm petite) but I find it's hard to get without a protein powder. I found this one works pretty well and doesn't cause flare ups, as it doesn't contain collagen, it's made from grass fed beef muscle meat. It's not ideal, but like you, I also have to make some modifications to RP's basic diet suggestions.
Paleo Protein™ – Vanilla Nut

@Zpol Thank you for the protein powder suggestion! I looked up and found their chocolate flavor which also looks good

I also struggle to get enough protein.