Any Advice On Adjusting Potassium-to-sodium Electrolytic Balance?

[MetabolicTrash]

So I've been part of the common "Western diet" for many years as you can assume:

1.Lots of sodium;

2.Maybe a 1.5:1 balance of potassium to sodium or such;

3.Tons of processed foods and saturated fats and etc.

Not saying my diet currently is bad -- but I just recently read and found out how different it is from our ancestors.

People many years ago -- for example -- would consume a 16:1 potassium to sodium ratio. Lots of people in the West or U.S. specifically (myself included) tend to get tons of sodium and often less potassium than commonly recommended, which makes for a weak 1:1 ratio, give or take.

Basically a lot of people still are eating easily over 2 grams of sodium daily, while likely not even getting 3 grams of potassium.

Isn't this a bad thing? My initial gut impression was that I should reduce sodium and increase potassium, as keeping sodium low and potassium on the higher-end is more associated with better or optimal cardiovascular health than just raising one or lowering the other separately.

Given this it is still difficult to keep sodium low consistently and potassium high. I also had concerns about this since Googling around just shows those scary "eat more of this and you can die" oversimplication articles that usually don't apply to those without certain conditions that can greatly affect normal upping of minerals and etc.

So what I am wondering is, how can I gradually make this shift without concern for any issues? I've been so long with high salt and so-so potassium. Should I just add more potassium gradually while trying to minimally reduce sodium? Is there a better way to do this and etc.?

Would be great to further discuss this here, along with safe potassium upper limits in general; best sodium:potassium optimization; etc.

 

[redsun]

Attempting to lower sodium and increase potassium will raise aldosterone which is exactly what you dont want. I can't remember which decade but there was a time where the sodium intake of the average American was 10g sodium and even higher and people were much healthier. Salt is protective as well as thermogenic and in today's world where we are constantly bombared by stressors, salt helps combat the rise in stressful processes and catabolic hormones. High salt intake in the past was a natural response to stressors of modern life and as soon as the government starts to tell us sodium is bad, consumption reduces and consequently the health problemz that high sodium staved off come out to play.

It lowers aldosterone, adrenaline. Sodium is also a necessary cofactor for SERT and increase SERT levels which transport serotonin. More SERT means less serotonin outside the synapse causing trouble. Also directly relieves edema caused by estrogen when dosed adequately. Those with hypothyroidism lose sodium easily, increasing requirements. Low salt is bad news. Of course, if you are on thyroid hormones or if you have good thyroid function you can go by with less sodium. I find myself not needing so much sodium on T3 as thyroid helps retain sodium.

My advice is do not lower sodium, eat plenty salt, as much as you crave. Nothing is stopping you from having high amounts of salt and potassium from say potatoes and fruits...

 

[lampofred]

Aside from extreme deficiencies, I think the amount of sodium or potassium you consume isn't really important for mineral balance because the body will naturally balance everything as long as there is enough CO2 (in other words, thyroid activity).

Low cellular energy causes cells to take up sodium and expel potassium, whereas with good cellular energy, sodium will be expelled into the bloodstream and potassium will be retained. It doesn't do much good to restrict sodium in an attempt to prevent cells from uptaking too much sodium because you will just activate stress hormones (aldosterone, as redsun mentioned), similar to how calcium restriction will just activate PTH instead of actually fixing the problem.

The key to making everything work right is to restore cellular energy levels and CO2 production, which is what Dr. Peat's work is all about.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

Attempting to lower sodium and increase potassium will raise aldosterone which is exactly what you dont want. I can't remember which decade but there was a time where the sodium intake of the average American was 10g sodium and even higher and people were much healthier. Salt is protective as well as thermogenic and in today's world where we are constantly bombared by stressors, salt helps combat the rise in stressful processes and catabolic hormones. High salt intake in the past was a natural response to stressors of modern life and as soon as the government starts to tell us sodium is bad, consumption reduces and consequently the health problemz that high sodium staved off come out to play.

It lowers aldosterone, adrenaline. Sodium is also a necessary cofactor for SERT and increase SERT levels which transport serotonin. More SERT means less serotonin outside the synapse causing trouble. Also directly relieves edema caused by estrogen when dosed adequately. Those with hypothyroidism lose sodium easily, increasing requirements. Low salt is bad news. Of course, if you are on thyroid hormones or if you have good thyroid function you can go by with less sodium. I find myself not needing so much sodium on T3 as thyroid helps retain sodium.

My advice is do not lower sodium, eat plenty salt, as much as you crave. Nothing is stopping you from having high amounts of salt and potassium from say potatoes and fruits...

Hmmm... But there appears to be a conflict between your post and everything I've come to understand.

Mainstream medical science and literature on this subject states that sodium intake without adequate potassium to sodium ratio doesn't provide efficient electrolyte balance.

Basically the idea is that all mainstream medical advice suggests that people ought to lower sodium and increase potassium, especially with the pointing to sodium health risks in high amounts (high blood pressure; imbalances due to not enough potassium to counterbalance; and how it can overtime affect the heart).

I mean just simply writing off sodium as "okay" without regards for dosage and its ratio to potassium sounds shortsighted.

Why would so much mainstream medical advice and studies suggest having really low sodium intake then, as part of a widespread attempt to point out how sodium is at a surplus among us?

I also abide by the more paleolithic-esque literature that states people in early times ate little sodium but got tons of potassium (as part of an opportunistic omnivore diet).

Not saying it is good only because out ancestors did it, but it makes you think. With so much salt added to everything and processing and etc., you get the sense that old diets -- in some ways at least -- suggest more ideal health. It isn't like early humans or such found 1 gram of sodium in small quantities of store bought foods like it is so common to find now.

I can't use this info to just rationalize eating tons of salt as perfectly okay without factoring in the potassium ratio and evidence against it.

 

[LuMonty]

@ScurveDream Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity
If I did it right, that's a link to one of Ray Peat's essays. I found it very useful when I first started reading his work.

 

[redsun]

Hmmm... But there appears to be a conflict between your post and everything I've come to understand.

Mainstream medical science and literature on this subject states that sodium intake without adequate potassium to sodium ratio doesn't provide efficient electrolyte balance.

Basically the idea is that all mainstream medical advice suggests that people ought to lower sodium and increase potassium, especially with the pointing to sodium health risks in high amounts (high blood pressure; imbalances due to not enough potassium to counterbalance; and how it can overtime affect the heart).

I mean just simply writing off sodium as "okay" without regards for dosage and its ratio to potassium sounds shortsighted.

Why would so much mainstream medical advice and studies suggest having really low sodium intake then, as part of a widespread attempt to point out how sodium is at a surplus among us?

I also abide by the more paleolithic-esque literature that states people in early times ate little sodium but got tons of potassium (as part of an opportunistic omnivore diet).

Not saying it is good only because out ancestors did it, but it makes you think. With so much salt added to everything and processing and etc., you get the sense that old diets -- in some ways at least -- suggest more ideal health. It isn't like early humans or such found 1 gram of sodium in small quantities of store bought foods like it is so common to find now.

I can't use this info to just rationalize eating tons of salt as perfectly okay without factoring in the potassium ratio and evidence against it.

You seem to forget that its not like our paleolithic ancestors would kill an animal and not drink the blood. Blood is high in sodium as well as the other electrolytes. It was common before religion came about to drink blood as it is the best form of hydration. Even if human ancestors were not drinking blood on a regular basis, they had much better thyroid health and overall health so they were able to conserve sodium levels better than us modern folk. Thyroid retains sodium as I said before. Without it you will lose sodium more easily and no "natural" saltless paleo diet will be able to stave off hyponatremia.

Na:K ratio only matters in the context of are you getting enough sodium. The human body has an incredible affinity for potassium and is able to hold on to it very well when potassium intake is low.

When blood sodium drops, aldosterone increases to conserve sodium at the expenses of losing potassium and magnesium. Sodium is much more important. You cannot increase potassium levels unless sodium is adequate, your body will just excrete the potassium. This can and likely does happen on a daily basis in many people. Hyponatremia leads to hypokalemia as you arent holding as much potassium as you need to function optimally.

If we are talking about evidence, its proven fact potassium raises aldosterone, sodium lowers it. You can't restore potassium levels without adequate sodium intake, sodium is prioritized by the body as it will excrete potassium and magnesium to hold onto sodium. Don't mind the mainstream so much. We should directly investigate any and all mainstream wisdom to see if it holds true and if it does it does, if not its no surprise. The mainstream also says PUFAs are soooo soooo goooood for you as well and saturated animal fat will kill you. Just like the mainstream is wrong about PUFAs, it is also wrong about sodium.

EDIT: Also if anyone had any doubts, low-carb has become mainstream, to our detriment.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

Well I guess I had it wrong somewhat.

Maybe I'll just forget about lowering salt or changing to Sea salt or something like that. I still don't really like lots of salt, but I guess ~2 grams a day is fine most days along with a little more potassium to go with it possibly.

I sometimes crave salt, but have to take control of this since I at one point was obese from overeating. It's been a long time since then and I'm still working on myself overall, but I eat slower/chew more now to basically be more mindful with the process and not emotionally driven binging like I did all too often.

Still kind of cautious with excessive salt though. I know --although not health issues themselves -- salt is correlated with some people and bloating/water retention; and higher blood pressure somewhat. Not that either alone is a bad thing, but they can have their downsides with some people it seems.

Main topic aside, you guys seem pretty knowledgeable here, based on Peat's research at least. Is this place a good fit for homeopathic/alternative medicine sort of discussions?

That is what drew me here. I am skeptical of some allopathic medicine ways and have found more solace with the more alt. communities to the mainstream ones that just push the "take a doctor's pill/prescription/etc. and it goes away" mindset for everything, ignoring all of the negatives that can come with some elective stuff and treatment approaches for some issues/people.

 

[SB4]

@ScurveDream You might be interested in this and this thread for alternative opinions. Particularly look for Travis posts. He presents a decent argument for high K/Na ratio.

 

[ANDREW CHIN]

So I've been part of the common "Western diet" for many years as you can assume:

1.Lots of sodium;

2.Maybe a 1.5:1 balance of potassium to sodium or such;

3.Tons of processed foods and saturated fats and etc.

Not saying my diet currently is bad -- but I just recently read and found out how different it is from our ancestors.

People many years ago -- for example -- would consume a 16:1 potassium to sodium ratio. Lots of people in the West or U.S. specifically (myself included) tend to get tons of sodium and often less potassium than commonly recommended, which makes for a weak 1:1 ratio, give or take.

Basically a lot of people still are eating easily over 2 grams of sodium daily, while likely not even getting 3 grams of potassium.

Isn't this a bad thing? My initial gut impression was that I should reduce sodium and increase potassium, as keeping sodium low and potassium on the higher-end is more associated with better or optimal cardiovascular health than just raising one or lowering the other separately.

Given this it is still difficult to keep sodium low consistently and potassium high. I also had concerns about this since Googling around just shows those scary "eat more of this and you can die" oversimplication articles that usually don't apply to those without certain conditions that can greatly affect normal upping of minerals and etc.

So what I am wondering is, how can I gradually make this shift without concern for any issues? I've been so long with high salt and so-so potassium. Should I just add more potassium gradually while trying to minimally reduce sodium? Is there a better way to do this and etc.?

Would be great to further discuss this here, along with safe potassium upper limits in general; best sodium:potassium optimization; etc.

Everyone's different. You can just experiment and listen to your body to determine the right sodium-potassium ratio for you. However, if you go too low on your salt intake, there could be some repercussions long-term. In general, when you reduce your salt intake below 1.5 teaspoons per day, it activates the RAAS (renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system), and this activates your sympathetic nervous system.

Here's a great WAPF article on salt.
https://www.westonaprice.org/podcast/105-salt-friend-foe/

Most folks who consume a natural, unrefined salt like Himalayan salt find that it lowers blood pressure. That's what David Brownstein has found in his practice, and my mom's systolic blood pressure lowered 10 points right away after she started consuming it.
https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Your-Wa...&s=books&sprefix=salt+your+way,aps,202&sr=1-1

 

[MetabolicTrash]

Everyone's different. You can just experiment and listen to your body to determine the right sodium-potassium ratio for you. However, if you go too low on your salt intake, there could be some repercussions long-term. In general, when you reduce your salt intake below 1.5 teaspoons per day, it activates the RAAS (renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system), and this activates your sympathetic nervous system.

Here's a great WAPF article on salt.
https://www.westonaprice.org/podcast/105-salt-friend-foe/

Most folks who consume a natural, unrefined salt like Himalayan salt find that it lowers blood pressure. That's what David Brownstein has found in his practice, and my mom's systolic blood pressure lowered 10 points right away after she started consuming it.
https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Your-Way-Health-2nd/dp/B000R8ZTGK/ref=sr_1_1?crid=15C8XHOKPYD6A&keywords=salt+your+way+to+health&qid=1563810304&s=books&sprefix=salt+your+way,aps,202&sr=1-1

I'll read into that.

But you're saying 1.5 teaspoons?

That is over 5 grams, no?

I never really ate that much regularly I don't think, even when I was obese and ate anything in sight.

You think upping salt a pinch and potassium along with it could mitigate any effects this may have caused me?

Apparently I've gone too far down the low sodium rabbit hole in thinking that > 1-2 grams of sodium daily is dangerous or will lead me to a heart attack.....

 

[Inspired]

I was also concerned about not getting enough potassium. I use electrolyte drinks, V8, and eat sweet potatoes. I think it is good to get potassium, but I don't think you need a lot.

Increasing salt was one of the experiments did once I started reading all the Ray Peat stuff.

Basically, I had problems with water retention. There are probably many causes for this, but I tried increasing my salt, and keeping it consistently high, and I am almost certain it helped me.

Basically, by keeping salt on the higher side, and being consistent with it, my body stopped ballooning up as much. It's been awesome.

I think my body was hoarding salt when I did eat it.

Just keeping salt consistently high makes eveything so much easier to manage.

 

[ANDREW CHIN]

I'll read into that.

But you're saying 1.5 teaspoons?

That is over 5 grams, no?

I never really ate that much regularly I don't think, even when I was obese and ate anything in sight.

You think upping salt a pinch and potassium along with it could mitigate any effects this may have caused me?

Apparently I've gone too far down the low sodium rabbit hole in thinking that > 1-2 grams of sodium daily is dangerous or will lead me to a heart attack.....

According to this article, 1.5 teaspoons is 8 grams. I just weighed it out on my trusty home scale, and I got 8.5 grams. So, let's just say it's 8 grams.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/salt-and-our-health/

Himalayan salt is generally 95-96% sodium chloride, and about 4-5% trace minerals.
Salt is generally 40% sodium and 60% chloride.

If you take 8 grams and multiply by .95, you get 7.6 grams.
The amount of chloride: 7.6 * .95 = 4.56 g
The amount of sodium: 7.6 * .95 = 3.04 g

3.04 g, or 3,040 mg per day, doesn't seem like too much sodium to consume for most people.
According to the WAPF article above, historical consumption of salt in the West was 3.3 teaspoons (15-17 grams) from the early 1800s until WWII.

David McCarron has found that low calcium and potassium to be associated to higher BP. He got fired for doing this kind of work. It's really too bad.
Are low intakes of calcium and potassium important causes of cardiovascular disease?

The NHANES (National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey), conducted every 10 years, found the same thing (low CA and K was tied to hypertension). Higher dietary sodium levels didn't have any relation to hypertension.

What are the effects that you are trying to mitigate?

 

[MetabolicTrash]

According to this article, 1.5 teaspoons is 8 grams. I just weighed it out on my trusty home scale, and I got 8.5 grams. So, let's just say it's 8 grams.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/salt-and-our-health/

Himalayan salt is generally 95-96% sodium chloride, and about 4-5% trace minerals.
Salt is generally 40% sodium and 60% chloride.

If you take 8 grams and multiply by .95, you get 7.6 grams.
The amount of chloride: 7.6 * .95 = 4.56 g
The amount of sodium: 7.6 * .95 = 3.04 g

3.04 g, or 3,040 mg per day, doesn't seem like too much sodium to consume for most people.
According to the WAPF article above, historical consumption of salt in the West was 3.3 teaspoons (15-17 grams) from the early 1800s until WWII.

David McCarron has found that low calcium and potassium to be associated to higher BP. He got fired for doing this kind of work. It's really too bad.
Are low intakes of calcium and potassium important causes of cardiovascular disease?

The NHANES (National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey), conducted every 10 years, found the same thing (low CA and K was tied to hypertension). Higher dietary sodium levels didn't have any relation to hypertension.

What are the effects that you are trying to mitigate?

Interesting calculation. I just assumed the sodium gotten from salt was 100% correlated with the same weight it was without measuring the difference in sodium/chloride.

I meant mitigate as in lessen any negative effects brought upon from restricting sodium. Earlier today I felt a bit weak/fatigued/shaky on top of usual. I tried some salt and got some sun and slowly felt a bit better. Maybe the problem is calorie restricting and salt restricting?

I'm trying to get leaner/lower BF, but I'm mostly doing so on near constantly lower calories than my BMR. My thoughts were that the fatigue or symptoms were entirely anxiety-related -- but given how I felt better after eating some salt and getting some sun, my thoughts are that it could've been from salt restrictions and just overall insufficient dieting and low energy than just anxiety itself.

 

[ANDREW CHIN]

Interesting calculation. I just assumed the sodium gotten from salt was 100% correlated with the same weight it was without measuring the difference in sodium/chloride.

I meant mitigate as in lessen any negative effects brought upon from restricting sodium. Earlier today I felt a bit weak/fatigued/shaky on top of usual. I tried some salt and got some sun and slowly felt a bit better. Maybe the problem is calorie restricting and salt restricting?

I'm trying to get leaner/lower BF, but I'm mostly doing so on near constantly lower calories than my BMR. My thoughts were that the fatigue or symptoms were entirely anxiety-related -- but given how I felt better after eating some salt and getting some sun, my thoughts are that it could've been from salt restrictions and just overall insufficient dieting and low energy than just anxiety itself.

Yes, salt seems to support thyroid function, which regulates many processes in the body. So it should help with your overall energy levels. A lot of people feel more grounded when consuming salt. I've known people on low-salt and salt-free diets, and they often have high levels of stress and anxiety.

Additional calories will likely help with the fatigue and stabilize the blood sugar, which could help with the shaking. Of the three macronutrients, protein has the greatest satiety. You'll likely get better long-term results by following a Peat-friendly approach, supporting the thyroid by avoiding PUFA, limiting crucifers (cook them well if you consume them) and consuming adequate carbohydrate. I believe Ray Peat doesn't care much for calorie restriction as a method of long-term weight loss.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

Just wanted to post this again to thank the community here -- specifically the ones who helped me here on my first post.

I really had no idea of more optimal health strategies and was kind of lost and thinking I needed low sodium and high unsaturated fats, when going down that road could've made me much worse off. It looks like the Peat-ish way is what I'm going to slowly adopt & follow for the most part now.

 

[tara]

I think I've had trouble at times from both too low sodium and too low potassium.
My non-expert hunch is:

• If you haven't been getting much potassium, increase it by eating more fruits and veges till you are getting a pretty good amount.
• More or less go by taste on salt your food (NaCl). You may find your taste changes as you change the potassium.
• Make any deliberate changes gradually, so your body can adapt.
• Watch for any noticable effects for you.

 

[ANDREW CHIN]

Just wanted to post this again to thank the community here -- specifically the ones who helped me here on my first post.

I really had no idea of more optimal health strategies and was kind of lost and thinking I needed low sodium and high unsaturated fats, when going down that road could've made me much worse off. It looks like the Peat-ish way is what I'm going to slowly adopt & follow for the most part now.

You're welcome. Good luck, ScurveDream!

 

[Dawid]

So I've been part of the common "Western diet" for many years as you can assume:

1.Lots of sodium;

2.Maybe a 1.5:1 balance of potassium to sodium or such;

3.Tons of processed foods and saturated fats and etc.

Not saying my diet currently is bad -- but I just recently read and found out how different it is from our ancestors.

People many years ago -- for example -- would consume a 16:1 potassium to sodium ratio. Lots of people in the West or U.S. specifically (myself included) tend to get tons of sodium and often less potassium than commonly recommended, which makes for a weak 1:1 ratio, give or take.

Basically a lot of people still are eating easily over 2 grams of sodium daily, while likely not even getting 3 grams of potassium.

Isn't this a bad thing? My initial gut impression was that I should reduce sodium and increase potassium, as keeping sodium low and potassium on the higher-end is more associated with better or optimal cardiovascular health than just raising one or lowering the other separately.

Given this it is still difficult to keep sodium low consistently and potassium high. I also had concerns about this since Googling around just shows those scary "eat more of this and you can die" oversimplication articles that usually don't apply to those without certain conditions that can greatly affect normal upping of minerals and etc.

So what I am wondering is, how can I gradually make this shift without concern for any issues? I've been so long with high salt and so-so potassium. Should I just add more potassium gradually while trying to minimally reduce sodium? Is there a better way to do this and etc.?

Would be great to further discuss this here, along with safe potassium upper limits in general; best sodium:potassium optimization; etc.

People used to eat large amount of sodium (up to 40 grams in western europe and up to 100 grams in nordic countries (lots of fish)). These were pre-refrigerator times where salt was used as a preservative. Now days we eat way much less salt than at that times.