Anxios,depressed,trying To Fix It Via Hormones

[broozer]

hey guys,

im mid 30, with a history of insomnia, depression and social anxiety. Im slowly tapering my psych medication but still need support to feel better. i eat healthy diet and am able to work out (climbing) twice a week. i supplement with 50mcg T4 ,3000IU D3, 200ygIodine. minerals i cover by food. coffeine 150mg in the AM.ashvagandha before bed. i do so since oct 2018.i quit smoking by end 2018. i added DHEA in low dosages in dec2018 (3-5mg) because it helps my weak immune system and gives me sort of relaxaed feeling. plus it makes me able to sleep longer like in my teen years.
unfortunately i cought some virus in february and i couldnt really recover. i was desperate to heal because i had job offers. i took testosteron gel 40-60mg and i was cured by 3 days. felt great, had more energy,no more social anxiety,vigor and optimism. so i decided to get bloods to see if the gel works. those are my labs, 9 days of testosterone plus the above metnioned dhea,t4.

total T: 14,9ng/dl (3-9)
shbg: 45 (18-54)
TSH: 1,11
Cortisol @ noon 12,4
DHEA-S 3,5 (0,9 - 4,3)
E2 27,6 (27,1 - 52,2)

i dont want to use too many meds/sups. im trying to use a minimum amount of meds. i feel like continuing on T4+DHEA or quiting them and go testosterone only. whats your opinion?

 

[broozer]

guys...anyone?
what to do: T4+low dose DHEA Xor testo only?

 

[Luckytype]

Give us an idea of your day and food intake.

There are better more sustainable and easier ways to alleviate your ailments vs just hormonal supps..

 

[broozer]

i get up between 9 and 10AM, i work in the afternoon. but even if i slept 10hs uninterrupted i have a hard time getting up. then i take the thyroid/iodine+low dose Dhea,3-5mg medication. i eat breakfeast,have some espressi..but not more than200mg coffeine per day and not after noon. i m very tired and im freezing like crazy..like i have a chronic flue/infection. workingnout in the morning relievs the freezing and somehow boosts metabolism.
i eat lots of oats, some cheese,brazilnuts,a bit coconut oil,lots sardines,little to ne bread. i quit smoking although it made me feel great.
i felt best with a rough intermittent fasting and morning workout. workout after sunset worsen insomnia. i feel like hypothyroid but my levels are fine. if sleep was refreshing i wouldnt need any supplement, thats for sure. but after using finasteride my sleep was whacked.
actually if i was to choose only 1 medication it would be a strong hypnotic with rather longish halflife. to beat both insomnia and day time anxiety/social angst. in other words a benzodiazepine

 

[alywest]

i get up between 9 and 10AM, i work in the afternoon. but even if i slept 10hs uninterrupted i have a hard time getting up. then i take the thyroid/iodine+low dose Dhea,3-5mg medication. i eat breakfeast,have some espressi..but not more than200mg coffeine per day and not after noon. i m very tired and im freezing like crazy..like i have a chronic flue/infection. workingnout in the morning relievs the freezing and somehow boosts metabolism.
i eat lots of oats, some cheese,brazilnuts,a bit coconut oil,lots sardines,little to ne bread. i quit smoking although it made me feel great.
i felt best with a rough intermittent fasting and morning workout. workout after sunset worsen insomnia. i feel like hypothyroid but my levels are fine. if sleep was refreshing i wouldnt need any supplement, thats for sure. but after using finasteride my sleep was whacked.
actually if i was to choose only 1 medication it would be a strong hypnotic with rather longish halflife. to beat both insomnia and day time anxiety/social angst. in other words a benzodiazepine

I'm sure people here will strongly disagree but I really don't care. You might try an SSRI. People who have taken finasteride have a low level of 3a-HSD, the enzyme that helps to make allopregnanolone, which is calming. This forum is really focused on showing all the negatives of SSRI's while ignoring the fact that they actually improve learned helplessness, and cause the inflammation producing prostaglandins to be taken to the areas of the brain that are most similar to non-depressed people. You might also consider talking to your doctor about using the newly approved ketamine nasal spray when it becomes available. It's possible that you do have some sort of chronic viral infection if you are having flu like symptoms and and are constantly freezing. Unfortunately no food is going to cure that but you might want to somehow get gelatin/collagen into your diet in high amounts. I like zint hydrolyzed collagen because I find it to be a fair price. I take 2-3 scoops per day for 24-36 extra grams of protein. Also, have you had a proper dental checkup lately? Harmful bacteria reside in the gums and ruin your overall sense of well-being and the same bacteria are even found in the gut, so keeping your intestinal tract moving and getting your gums in check could really promote the healing process, although you might feel worse before you feel better.

Check out the Marshall Protocol, it discusses keeping vitamin D levels low and using a blood pressure medication called olmesartan to kill cell wall negative bacteria that may be residing intracellularly. Olmesartan is prescribed to people who don't have hypertension for migraine prophylaxis without lowering the blood pressure so it's not dangerous to take even if you have normal blood pressure.

 

[broozer]

thanks for chiming in @alywest ! i admit i gave fluoxetine a try, but not very long - i was very sceptic and anxious about its anti-male reputation. guys in this forum or any male-enhancement advise you to go TRT first instead of taking antidereessants. how long would it take to get the allopregnenalone working? we discussed in autumn 2018 that even very low dosages are enough to get this effect done, right?
im totally up for the ketamin spray but dont know how to get it in europe. any idea?
the bad immune system is in my eyes only the result of poor sleep. when i manage to sleep 2,3 nights in a row soundly(by taking a benzo) im very active and not freezing. but i am positive to some herpes viruses and EBV, but most ppl are i suppose.
my gums well..my dentist says they are higly inflamed, which i could not believe. i use floss daily and i almost never bleed, so i concluded no bleeding means no inflammation.
the testosterone doesnt help with my insomnia and very little with my anxiety. BUT its improving my immune-system a lot..normally i would have a bad odeur,like sick and some old people smell maybe. but since im on testosterone this seems to be no issue. the effect is immediate and girls in dancing class who rejected me first became somehow open to me.

 

[danishispsychic]

my 2 cents- ditch ALL the supplements for a week and see how you feel with just the test gel. in my experience with iodine - it is better to pulse dose it - not take it everyday at all, and it depends on what kind you are taking as it can building up in the organs ( that is something that i read in a study on line ) it seems like iodine excess will speed you up but it does the opposite and totally messes with your sleep AND gut bacteria. read up on what Dr Peat says about iodine and also... if you do not have the correct co factors going on... especially selenium it can really mess you up. iodine is TRICKY.

 

[DavidGardner]

I don’t see a reason to use an SSRI to raise allopregnanolone when you can supplement pregnenolone. I would try that in conjunction with DHEA and stay away from testosterone gel. Testosterone converts too easily to estrogen, and supplementing it is highly suppressive to your natural production.

Progesterone functions like a benzodiazepine — or more accurately, vice versa, so you might try that in place of a medication. I would only take it on an as needed basis though when your insomnia is bad.

Also, you mention oats, Brazil nuts, sardines, and cheese as dietary staples— all of which contain significant amounts of PUFA in quantity. Going back to basics, I think you may be getting too much PUFA. You can use Cronometer for a week to figure out how much, which might be more than you think.

 

[broozer]

hey @danishispsychic i think your right with the iodine...since im on the iodine supp i have insane flatulentia no matter what i eat. your proposal sounds reasonable.

@DavidGardner would i use progesterone right before bed when used as a natural sleep-induction? seeing my blood results after 9 days of testosterone-gel, my T was high but my E2 on the lower end. The thing is even if i have good total natural T my free T is lowish..though those labs were all influenced by psych-medication but low free T means feeling like crap,fatigue,no drive.

 

[alywest]

I don’t see a reason to use an SSRI to raise allopregnanolone when you can supplement pregnenolone. I would try that in conjunction with DHEA and stay away from testosterone gel. Testosterone converts too easily to estrogen, and supplementing it is highly suppressive to your natural production.

Progesterone functions like a benzodiazepine — or more accurately, vice versa, so you might try that in place of a medication. I would only take it on an as needed basis though when your insomnia is bad.

Also, you mention oats, Brazil nuts, sardines, and cheese as dietary staples— all of which contain significant amounts of PUFA in quantity. Going back to basics, I think you may be getting too much PUFA. You can use Cronometer for a week to figure out how much, which might be more than you think.

If you don't have the enzyme 3a-HSD then you can't make allopregnanolone with the basic ingredients like cholesterol and pregnenolone. And those who have PTSD and finasteride users have a lack of this enzyme. In my experience you can take a really low dose of SSRI to get the 3a HSD but I've found that a moderate dose (still not considered "therapeutic" by doctors and insurance companies) is better than the extremely low doses.

Also, check out the various studies showing the effect of SSRIs on endotoxin and inflammatory cytokines:

The Effect of Antidepressant Medication Treatment on Serum Levels of Inflammatory Cytokines: A Meta-Analysis
Meta-analysis of these studies showed that, overall, while pharmacological antidepressant treatment reduced depressive symptoms, it did not reduce serum levels of TNFα. On the other hand, antidepressant treatment did reduce levels of IL-1β and possibly those of IL-6. Stratified subgroup analysis by class of antidepressant indicated that serotonin reuptake inhibitors may reduce levels of IL-6 and TNFα. Other antidepressants, while efficacious for depressive symptoms, did not appear to reduce cytokine levels. These results argue against the notion that resolution of a depressive episode is associated with normalization of levels of circulating inflammatory cytokines; however, the results are consistent with the possibility that inflammatory cytokines contribute to depressive symptoms and that antidepressants block the effects of inflammatory cytokines on the brain.

Effects of Antidepressant Drugs on the Behavioral and Physiological Responses to Lipopolysaccharide (LPS) in Rodents
Chronic fluoxetine treatment significantly attenuated the anorexia and body weight loss, as well as the depletion of CRH-41 from the median eminence and the elevation in serum corticosterone levels induced by LPS.

NYAS Publications
In parallel experiments, we demonstrated in rodents that immune activation with various acute and chronic immune challenges induces a depressive‐like syndrome, characterized by anhedonia, anorexia, body weight loss, and reduced locomotor, exploratory, and social behavior. Chronic treatment with antidepressants (imipramine or fluoxetine) attenuated many of the behavioral effects of LPS, as well as LPS‐induced changes in body temperature, adrenocortical activation, hypothalamic serotonin release, and the expression of splenic TNF‐α mRNA.

 

[broozer]

i mean regarding my bloods i postet in the OP: how can cortisol still be at 12?? it was at noon, no coffein excess,solid thyroid and even with DHEA + testosterone supllement. in my particular case we need to tank this detremental hormone, for sure!
im just too afraid of losing my right judgement by taking SSRI and getting somehow lovey dovey or spaced out

 

[sebastian_r]

i mean regarding my bloods i postet in the OP: how can cortisol still be at 12?? it was at noon, no coffein excess,solid thyroid and even with DHEA + testosterone supllement. in my particular case we need to tank this detremental hormone, for sure!
im just too afraid of losing my right judgement by taking SSRI and getting somehow lovey dovey or spaced out

As long as you feel good on T, no need to worry about some numbers on a piece of paper.

However TRT is a life long commitment, dont do it without doctor supervision.

I would prefer dialed in TRT over T4+DHEA if you cannot do it without supplements.

DHEA will supress your already weak T even more over time.

 

[broozer]

yeah, the T gives me an edge and improves life in several domains. i got it prescribed from a doctor.
okay, so i read diverging opinions on long term DHEA for males. some say its wont supress, as there is no known receotor
and no known feedback. you think it will suppress indirectly?

 

[Luckytype]

i get up between 9 and 10AM, i work in the afternoon. but even if i slept 10hs uninterrupted i have a hard time getting up. then i take the thyroid/iodine+low dose Dhea,3-5mg medication. i eat breakfeast,have some espressi..but not more than200mg coffeine per day and not after noon. i m very tired and im freezing like crazy..like i have a chronic flue/infection. workingnout in the morning relievs the freezing and somehow boosts metabolism.
i eat lots of oats, some cheese,brazilnuts,a bit coconut oil,lots sardines,little to ne bread. i quit smoking although it made me feel great.
i felt best with a rough intermittent fasting and morning workout. workout after sunset worsen insomnia. i feel like hypothyroid but my levels are fine. if sleep was refreshing i wouldnt need any supplement, thats for sure. but after using finasteride my sleep was whacked.
actually if i was to choose only 1 medication it would be a strong hypnotic with rather longish halflife. to beat both insomnia and day time anxiety/social angst. in other words a benzodiazepine

How many calories do you consume in a day and what does your cronometer look like?

 

[broozer]

i eat between 2500 and 3000kcal. i am at 74kg with 15% bodyfat,51% muscle mass

 

[sladerunner69]

hey guys,

im mid 30, with a history of insomnia, depression and social anxiety. Im slowly tapering my psych medication but still need support to feel better. i eat healthy diet and am able to work out (climbing) twice a week. i supplement with 50mcg T4 ,3000IU D3, 200ygIodine. minerals i cover by food. coffeine 150mg in the AM.ashvagandha before bed. i do so since oct 2018.i quit smoking by end 2018. i added DHEA in low dosages in dec2018 (3-5mg) because it helps my weak immune system and gives me sort of relaxaed feeling. plus it makes me able to sleep longer like in my teen years.
unfortunately i cought some virus in february and i couldnt really recover. i was desperate to heal because i had job offers. i took testosteron gel 40-60mg and i was cured by 3 days. felt great, had more energy,no more social anxiety,vigor and optimism. so i decided to get bloods to see if the gel works. those are my labs, 9 days of testosterone plus the above metnioned dhea,t4.

total T: 14,9ng/dl (3-9)
shbg: 45 (18-54)
TSH: 1,11
Cortisol @ noon 12,4
DHEA-S 3,5 (0,9 - 4,3)
E2 27,6 (27,1 - 52,2)

i dont want to use too many meds/sups. im trying to use a minimum amount of meds. i feel like continuing on T4+DHEA or quiting them and go testosterone only. whats your opinion?

Progesterone seems to be the best hormone for relieving anxiety and bringing on the calm feeling.

 

[broozer]

at which doses @sladerunner69 and at what daytimes?

 

[sladerunner69]

at which doses @sladerunner69 and at what daytimes?

I prefer to take it in the evening because it is so calming and relaxing. If I take it in the morning then I do so with a couple mg dhea

 

[broozer]

for now i stopped the iodine. i dont know if the T-Gel is helping much. yes, i feel i have a better immune system,and better performance in sport. but i tend to grow ***s and its impact on mood is vanishing. can it be i dont convert properly from T > DHT?
i have a history of finasteride.

few days ago i was smoking and it immediatly cleared my thoughts, no more freeezing hands, surge of hunger. it boosted my metabolism in less than 1 hour! is this only nicotin-effects? then i might stick to nicotine chewing gums.
i might give high doses of niacinamide in the mornging a shot - georgij mentioned on a danny roddy podcast that 1 gram can be as strong against social anxiety as diazepam in clinical doses.