Anxiety off the scale. Please can you help?

[mostlylurking]

You have given me so much of your time and I do thank you.

you're welcome.

My intention is to do that but armed with all the information you have given me here. It worries me greatly though that you might be offended by my intention and regret spending so much time with me. Everything which you have shared I have stored away in my mind and will be here on this thread for reference. I hope you will understand that coming from a place of so many years of anorexia and orthorexia, the experience of simply eating is a nightmare (which is why I posted this thread in the first place).

It is important to listen to your inner voice which can get drowned out in the cacophony of many helpful opinions. I remember spending many hours when I was not well, between 2:00am and 6:00am, alone with myself, reading Ray Peat's wise articles and writing my own thoughts in the borders.

I've spent over 25 years living with severe food allergies/sensitivities that laid me low and affected my brain function so I understand about your concern about orthorexia. I've learned that there really are substances in the food supply that really are dangerous and I really do have to avoid them if I want to survive. I am not concerned about what other people may think about me regarding that. I look on it as a survival skill and nothing more.

You have given me so much of your time and I do thank you.

I hope you find the info helpful. Glad to have the opportunity to try to help.

You may have read Peatful's advice to me above: that I should leave this forum and go and eat.

My intention is to do that but armed with all the information you have given me here. It worries me greatly though that you might be offended by my intention and regret spending so much time with me. Everything which you have shared I have stored away in my mind and will be here on this thread for reference. I hope you will understand that coming from a place of so many years of anorexia and orthorexia, the experience of simply eating is a nightmare (which is why I posted this thread in the first place).

I'm not offended; you have to find your own way. Ray Peat's wisdom was my life line. Not only did he provide good information, he also taught me how to think and to discern so that I could research further on my own. I hope you use the two search engines I provided earlier; I have found them to be enormously helpful.

I am most certainly going to try OJ again and I am back on milk and feta cheese already. But I realise that to overcome orthorexia, I need to learn how to experience eating widely, care-freely, even voraciously. All of which terrifies me.

It may terrify you for good reason. Listen to your body. There's a discussion (on an Herb Doctors' show) that Ray Peat had with "Jeana from Kansas City" about weight loss (I think) where he said that having a very narrow diet of very nutrient dense foods that are well tolerated is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if you are working on getting well. Or something like that. He was proposing a diet to lose weight consisting mainly of 2 quarts of 1% lowfat milk plus a quart of orange juice for maybe 6 months. I may have garbled two Ray Peat responses together but I think the point is valid.

I've lived through years with leaky gut which allowed partially digested food molecules into my bloodstream. This caused me to develop multiple severe food allergies and sensitivities. I had to severely restrict my diet in order to get my gut to heal. The two biggies are gluten and polyunsaturated fats.

Having said all that, I cannot ignore the possibility of Beriberi and will make an appointment to see my GP and take information with me.

Arming yourself with knowledge and a few printed medical journal articles when you go would probably be helpful.

I am sorry , it is too hard for me to say more here because I feel you might be annoyed with me. It has meant so much to me to have corresponded with you. I need you to know that.

I'm not annoyed with you at all. You have to find your own way.

And to know that I wish you well and hope that, as the months go by, and as NDT and HDT continue to do their work, you will experience even greater good health.

Thank you.

I so much hope that when I find my own courage to heal and pop up here again, we will somehow be able to correspond once more, just so that you will know your work with me has not been wasted

My warmest best wishes,

Anytime. Take care and listen to your body.

 

[InChristAlone]

I remembered this podcast about the Minnesota Starvation experiment and thought it would be good to add to this thread. 226: The Minnesota Starvation Experiment

He put the whole transcript to get through faster. Many of the men in the experiment developed psychotic symptoms that went away completely when in the recovery period.

"What Keys discovered during this restricted rehabilitation phase is that calories, above all else, are the most important thing. Let me quote Keys directly here. He said: ‘Enough food must be supplied to allow tissues destroyed during starvation to be rebuilt. Our experiments have shown that in an adult man, no appreciable rehabilitation can take place on a diet of 2,000 calories a day. The proper level is more like 4,000 daily for some months. The character of rehabilitation diet is important also, but unless calories are abundant, then extra proteins, vitamins, and minerals are of little value’.

 

[Peatful]

I remembered this podcast about the Minnesota Starvation experiment and thought it would be good to add to this thread. 226: The Minnesota Starvation Experiment

He put the whole transcript to get through faster. Many of the men in the experiment developed psychotic symptoms that went away completely when in the recovery period.

"What Keys discovered during this restricted rehabilitation phase is that calories, above all else, are the most important thing. Let me quote Keys directly here. He said: ‘Enough food must be supplied to allow tissues destroyed during starvation to be rebuilt. Our experiments have shown that in an adult man, no appreciable rehabilitation can take place on a diet of 2,000 calories a day. The proper level is more like 4,000 daily for some months. The character of rehabilitation diet is important also, but unless calories are abundant, then extra proteins, vitamins, and minerals are of little value’.

Excellent data.

Absolutely aligns with my personal experience.

Thx so much for posting this.

 

[Tilly-J]

you're welcome.

It is important to listen to your inner voice which can get drowned out in the cacophony of many helpful opinions. I remember spending many hours when I was not well, between 2:00am and 6:00am, alone with myself, reading Ray Peat's wise articles and writing my own thoughts in the borders.

I've spent over 25 years living with severe food allergies/sensitivities that laid me low and affected my brain function so I understand about your concern about orthorexia. I've learned that there really are substances in the food supply that really are dangerous and I really do have to avoid them if I want to survive. I am not concerned about what other people may think about me regarding that. I look on it as a survival skill and nothing more.

I hope you find the info helpful. Glad to have the opportunity to try to help.

I'm not offended; you have to find your own way. Ray Peat's wisdom was my life line. Not only did he provide good information, he also taught me how to think and to discern so that I could research further on my own. I hope you use the two search engines I provided earlier; I have found them to be enormously helpful.

It may terrify you for good reason. Listen to your body. There's a discussion (on an Herb Doctors' show) that Ray Peat had with "Jeana from Kansas City" about weight loss (I think) where he said that having a very narrow diet of very nutrient dense foods that are well tolerated is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if you are working on getting well. Or something like that. He was proposing a diet to lose weight consisting mainly of 2 quarts of 1% lowfat milk plus a quart of orange juice for maybe 6 months. I may have garbled two Ray Peat responses together but I think the point is valid.

I've lived through years with leaky gut which allowed partially digested food molecules into my bloodstream. This caused me to develop multiple severe food allergies and sensitivities. I had to severely restrict my diet in order to get my gut to heal. The two biggies are gluten and polyunsaturated fats.

Arming yourself with knowledge and a few printed medical journal articles when you go would probably be helpful.

I'm not annoyed with you at all. You have to find your own way.

Thank you.

Anytime. Take care and listen to your body.

I remembered this podcast about the Minnesota Starvation experiment and thought it would be good to add to this thread. 226: The Minnesota Starvation Experiment

He put the whole transcript to get through faster. Many of the men in the experiment developed psychotic symptoms that went away completely when in the recovery period.

"What Keys discovered during this restricted rehabilitation phase is that calories, above all else, are the most important thing. Let me quote Keys directly here. He said: ‘Enough food must be supplied to allow tissues destroyed during starvation to be rebuilt. Our experiments have shown that in an adult man, no appreciable rehabilitation can take place on a diet of 2,000 calories a day. The proper level is more like 4,000 daily for some months. The character of rehabilitation diet is important also, but unless calories are abundant, then extra proteins, vitamins, and minerals are of little value’.

I shouldn't be here but how could I not be keeping my eye on this thread? What you have written is so much what I needed to hear - yet again. It may save many others like me. I hope so.

(I should be so grateful if both you and Peatful would read this. I do not know how to do the fancy footwork of replying to two people in one message)

I am in tears as I post here because I am so stuck. So utterly stuck. and experiencing more and more concerning repercussions of under-nutrition which, in my skewed analysis I try to micro-manage, which only make things even worse and fills me with more alarm. I am full of information which pertains to others but not me. Of course, as you say: ABUNDANT CALORIES. This should be the beginning of my journey. I am going now to read the full transcript which you have posted.

I see that Chris Sandel does do private consultations. I see no charges on his site but I notice that he offers a free enquiry consultation. I am pretty sure his charges will be out of my range since I have no job, but maybe even just a couple of sessions? Perhaps I could manage that. Would you be kind enough to comment on my plan. Or do you think I should be able to do it myself? I found Barry Craig the other day and wondered about his ability to guide a quite severely health-compromised and orthorexic person like me back to safety (his charges at not too high). I have seen a few here talk about him but their comments were a bit concerning. I don't know.

This is what is destroying my mind: if my metabolism is so shot at that all I am producing is lactic acid which is affecting every muscle in my body, including most alarmingly by heart and putting me at risk of a heart attack or stroke, how do I rectify this metabolic disorder; what do I eat more of to address this? In order to reach at least 3,000 calories I will have to eat lots of sugar and/or starch - but these are the very things driving the lactic acid production. I feel utterly trapped and so distressed. I am not at all afraid of 3,000 calories (I long to start now, but as you will know, I am terrified without a constructive plan), or weight gain. I am very afraid of making a bad situation even worse. And that whole thought process is of itself making me worse.

I am sorry, I should not be here but please understand that I am only here again because I am so dedicated to getting better. And thank goodness I saw you post. It feels as though you have given me a lifeline, if I can only find my way to grab it very tightly. Thank you.

 

[Tilly-J]

Excellent data.

Absolutely aligns with my personal experience.

Thx so much for posting this.

Peatful, I hope you will see the post I have just sent to Sugarbabe. It is to you also.

 

[Peatful]

Peatful, I hope you will see the post I have just sent to Sugarbabe. It is to you also.

@Tilly-J

You are not broken beyond repair.
I promise you that.

Your body wants to heal and is on your side. Not against you.
Your body is miraculous.
I promise!

Do this for me, would you?
Please go take one bite of a “forbidden” food. Full of starch and sugar.
Maybe something that visually looks appealing. Or something that smells wonderful. Or something gooey and warm when you feel cold- and go take a bite.

Just start with one bite of something full of starch and sugar.

Don’t fear food.
Trust your body.

That’s a great plan right?
No fear. One bite. Trust.

 

[mostlylurking]

This is what is destroying my mind: if my metabolism is so shot at that all I am producing is lactic acid which is affecting every muscle in my body, including most alarmingly by heart and putting me at risk of a heart attack or stroke, how do I rectify this metabolic disorder;

Take thiamine. Forget about scarfing down 3000 calories a day for a while. Do NOT get a chunk of your calories from nutrient deficient sources like refined starch and refined sugar. This is an extremely bad idea. Focus instead on trying to get 90-100 grams of protein (dairy, eggs, gelatin) in you along with nutrient dense foods like orange juice. Eat shredded carrots or very well cooked mushrooms daily. White Irish potatoes are a good food as long as you cook them very well (long time) and put lots of butter and cream on them. Avoid grains and refined sugar.

what do I eat more of to address this? In order to reach at least 3,000 calories I will have to eat lots of sugar and/or starch - but these are the very things driving the lactic acid production.

Forget the 3,000 calories goal. Do NOT eat "lots of sugar and/or starch". Try to get maybe 1/2-1 teaspoon of coconut oil into each meal and be generous with butter and cream if you want to increase calories. However, I've read that thiamine is also required to metabolize fats so this idea alone won't necessarily work. Instead of focusing on calories, focus on grams of protein (90-100grams/day is a doable goal). The thiamine deficiency is driving the lactic acid. If you overcome the thiamine deficiency, the lactic acid problem goes away.

I feel utterly trapped and so distressed. I am not at all afraid of 3,000 calories (I long to start now, but as you will know, I am terrified without a constructive plan), or weight gain. I am very afraid of making a bad situation even worse. And that whole thought process is of itself making me worse.

I really do want to encourage you to address the very likely issue of severe thiamine deficiency = beriberi. Beriberi translates to: "I cannot". People die of beriberi. Your GP would be helpful.

Here's a video for you:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjVXFqiPDwE

and another:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG3m3tbEGU0


People get into trouble with thiamine via deficiency and/or functional blockage. Deficiency can be caused by "high calorie malnutrition" which means getting too many of your calories from refined sugars and starches, or by having an overabundance of thiamine consuming gut bacteria vs. bacteria that makes thiamine. Supplementing thiamine is known to positively affect the gut bacteria and also heal the gut so that nutrients can be effectively absorbed from food.

Things that cause thiamine functional blockage include many pharmaceutical drugs; environmental poisoning via heavy metals (including lead); alcohol consumption. The medical community assumes it's always alcohol consumption but there are lots of causes for thiamine deficiency. I've gotten myself in trouble in the past by drinking lots of iced tea; tea and coffee block thiamine function.

There are many articles about thiamine on pubmed. Here's one:
Thiamine deficiency disorders: diagnosis, prevalence, and a roadmap for global control programs - PubMed There's a link to the whole article (free).

 

[InChristAlone]

I shouldn't be here but how could I not be keeping my eye on this thread? What you have written is so much what I needed to hear - yet again. It may save many others like me. I hope so.

(I should be so grateful if both you and Peatful would read this. I do not know how to do the fancy footwork of replying to two people in one message)

I am in tears as I post here because I am so stuck. So utterly stuck. and experiencing more and more concerning repercussions of under-nutrition which, in my skewed analysis I try to micro-manage, which only make things even worse and fills me with more alarm. I am full of information which pertains to others but not me. Of course, as you say: ABUNDANT CALORIES. This should be the beginning of my journey. I am going now to read the full transcript which you have posted.

I see that Chris Sandel does do private consultations. I see no charges on his site but I notice that he offers a free enquiry consultation. I am pretty sure his charges will be out of my range since I have no job, but maybe even just a couple of sessions? Perhaps I could manage that. Would you be kind enough to comment on my plan. Or do you think I should be able to do it myself? I found Barry Craig the other day and wondered about his ability to guide a quite severely health-compromised and orthorexic person like me back to safety (his charges at not too high). I have seen a few here talk about him but their comments were a bit concerning. I don't know.

This is what is destroying my mind: if my metabolism is so shot at that all I am producing is lactic acid which is affecting every muscle in my body, including most alarmingly by heart and putting me at risk of a heart attack or stroke, how do I rectify this metabolic disorder; what do I eat more of to address this? In order to reach at least 3,000 calories I will have to eat lots of sugar and/or starch - but these are the very things driving the lactic acid production. I feel utterly trapped and so distressed. I am not at all afraid of 3,000 calories (I long to start now, but as you will know, I am terrified without a constructive plan), or weight gain. I am very afraid of making a bad situation even worse. And that whole thought process is of itself making me worse.

I am sorry, I should not be here but please understand that I am only here again because I am so dedicated to getting better. And thank goodness I saw you post. It feels as though you have given me a lifeline, if I can only find my way to grab it very tightly. Thank you.

Tilly, I know two people who lost their lives to anorexia way too young, they were sweet souls just like you. They couldn't eat enough to thrive, never eating enough to thrive. One was fearful of everything she was doing, in fact you sound just like her in many ways and that scares me honestly. You have made it this far you have much courage and your body wants to live! I know how hard it is to eat the food though. To just completely let go. I've been obsessed with nutrition for 13 yrs and could have landed in the hospital due to it. I don't have as good of a willpower when it comes to sugar though. I have always loved sugar. But allowing myself to eat whatever I want has given me freedom from cravings, it hasn't cured my lower appetite, but I am still a recovery in process. I get tripped up when I think I have a nutrient deficiency and that is more important than calories. It really truly trips me up. People who do not have an eating disorder don't understand this. They think why can't you just eat? It's the fear. Fear paralyzes the stomach. And if you are afraid sugar will make you worse then it will. If you are afraid gluten will make you worse then it will. Eating disorders kill. The only option is recovery. Not another diet, not another supplement. The only option is to push past fear of food.

 

[conrad0602]

Oh dear.
I’m sorry Howe.

New recommendation:
1- stay off this forum.

Objectively - it appears it is tripping you up.
Not your fault.
Completely understandable.

Go eat food.
Any food.
Then be proud of yourself.

No supplements needed.
No new diagnosis.
No orthorexia.
No more being stuck.
No more fear.
No more data.


Enjoy your meal.

You don’t have to get (anything) “right”.

Love from us all.

There's s lot to be taken from this post. Easy to lose sight of this and get lost down the rabbit whole trying to get well and end up making things more convoluted and ultimately slow down recovery. Thanks for this reminder peatful.

 

[Peatful]

There's s lot to be taken from this post. Easy to lose sight of this and get lost down the rabbit whole trying to get well and end up making things more convoluted and ultimately slow down recovery. Thanks for this reminder peatful.

Thank you.

 

[Jennifer]

People who do not have an eating disorder don't understand this. They think why can't you just eat? It's the fear. Fear paralyzes the stomach. And if you are afraid sugar will make you worse then it will. If you are afraid gluten will make you worse then it will. Eating disorders kill. The only option is recovery. Not another diet, not another supplement. The only option is to push past fear of food.

This 1000%.

Not to keep beating a dead horse by bringing up professional help, but overcoming the fear may require seeking it. Using Youreatopia and the Minnesota Starvation Experiment as a replacement for professional help has worked for some, but I know plenty more, including myself, where it was a disaster. The participants in the MSE didn’t go into the study already having an ED, nor did they suffer from one for the majority of their lives, and expecting someone who has to just eat is like telling someone who suffers from alcoholism to just stop drinking, as if it had never occurred to them or as if they had never tried so before. Someone trained in ED recovery knows strategies for overcoming the fear and mitigating the unpleasant symptoms often experienced when refeeding that can make the patient fear what they’re doing and send them running back to restriction or even committing suicide.

Refeeding may pull a person out of a restrictive mindset, but what happens if the person can’t even bring themself to do it or again, if unpleasant symptoms occur and it sends them running back to restriction? Even the weight gain part of recovery, which some think they’ll be okay with, when it actually happens and the number on the scale and their clothing increases, it can really mess with the mind and send them running back to restriction or potentially committing suicide. The idea that all one needs to do to overcome an ED is to eat lots of calories or get a certain nutrient or even the idea that all mental and emotional issues and traumas are the result of metabolic damage is, well, I don’t know how anyone could feel confident in claiming so enough to risk someone else’s life over it.

@Tilly-J, this may be a dumb question but does your therapist and doctor know you suffer from an active eating disorder? If your therapist doesn’t specialize in ED recovery and you can’t afford professionals who do, is there a way you can apply for financial or medical assistance through a type of disability? Apologies, I don’t know how the system works in the UK.

 

[Peatful]

Hi @Jennifer

I hear what you have said. I see your concerns.
That’s wonderful.

I don’t have a ton of time here. Nor the right thoughts or words. But I do want to quickly address a few things.

I don’t know what youtopia is, nor Daniel Craig or some other counselor she has mentioned.
What I do know is my experience.
And that Tilly is indeed eating- but is scared.

Im simply trying to encourage, support and give her nudges in the right direction.

Some people have no safe people in their lives to listen. To cheer for them. To hope with them...

I wonder if I said something that has triggered you. You seemed agitated- but maybe im assuming too much.
Please trust the spirit in which the advice was given in.

The irony is I am a clinician.
I have zero training in ED- but know many colleagues; and I know not one that has it all together.
Boy, could I share some stories.
A degree means very very very little IME.
Having wisdom vs having skill vs having knowledge are quite different ive come to learn.

I have zero time to explain the reasons behind the nuances of my replies. If you could, maybe just see it as a sister trying to help another sister out.
No reason to judge any motives or skew any data shared.

Thx.

Peatful

 

[Jennifer]

Hi @Jennifer

I hear what you have said. I see your concerns.
That’s wonderful.

I don’t have a ton of time here. Nor the right thoughts or words. But I do want to quickly address a few things.

I don’t know what youtopia is, nor Daniel Craig or some other counselor she has mentioned.
What I do know is my experience.
And that Tilly is indeed eating- but is scared.

Im simply trying to encourage, support and give her nudges in the right direction.

Some people have no safe people in their lives to listen. To cheer for them. To hope with them...

I wonder if I said something that has triggered you. You seemed agitated- but maybe im assuming too much.
Please trust the spirit in which the advice was given in.

The irony is I am a clinician.
I have zero training in ED- but know many colleagues; and I know not one that has it all together.
Boy, could I share some stories.
A degree means very very very little IME.
Having wisdom vs having skill vs having knowledge are quite different ive come to learn.

I have zero time to explain the reasons behind the nuances of my replies. If you could, maybe just see it as a sister trying to help another sister out.
No reason to judge any motives or skew any data shared.

Thx.

Peatful

I wasn’t judging your motives or skewing data and I’m not sure why my suggesting Tilly seek help from professionals who are experienced in dealing with the complexities of an ED reads as me being agitated, but I can assure you my response was only one of concern for Tilly. I never once doubted that you, or anyone else who has posted, are trying to help her but as you said yourself, what you know is your experience, no training in EDs, and when someone who, despite being cheered on to eat, is so afraid to that she has expressed wanting to end her life, that to me is a cry out for specialized help, something that may be beyond the scope of this forum, never mind the fact that just being here can be triggering. Like you said, some people have no safe people in their lives to listen, which is exactly why I am suggesting she seek professional help. They can not only help her with getting over her dietary fear, but they can help get to the root of where it all began so that it isn’t redirected toward other areas of her life. Anyhow, my apologies if my post triggered you. I just think Tilly deserves to get the best care possible and it may require more than what she’s able to receive here.

 

[DenizkaRedizka]

Peatful, I hope you will see the post I have just sent to Sugarbabe. It is to you also.

Hey, how are you, Tilly?