“Anti Estrogens” Are Estrogenic

[Goobz]

cite please? Thanks.

Sure. Here is the study. Turns out it is from 2013, so not as recent as I thought.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1206168

"In the groups that received testosterone, inhibition of estrogen synthesis (cohort 2), as compared with intact estrogen synthesis (cohort 1), was associated with significant increases in the percentage of body fat (P<0.001), subcutaneous-fat area (P<0.001), and intraabdominal-fat area (P=0.002) and with significant decreases in sexual desire (P<0.001) and erectile function (P=0.022); these findings provide additional evidence of an independent effect of estradiol on these measures."

And this was a media article talking about the study:
Male menopause? Estrogen, not just testosterone, affects body fat, sex drive, study finds

 

[TheBeard]

I'm planning on using letrozole to nuke my Estrogen tissues and repair the varicocele that the doctors like to claim has "no impact at all".

One of the worst meds to take.
Will tank your e2 into oblivion
Transcrotal Testosterone will bring enough DHT to counter e2 effects if that's what you are after

 

[ecstatichamster]

Sure. Here is the study. Turns out it is from 2013, so not as recent as I thought.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1206168

"In the groups that received testosterone, inhibition of estrogen synthesis (cohort 2), as compared with intact estrogen synthesis (cohort 1), was associated with significant increases in the percentage of body fat (P<0.001), subcutaneous-fat area (P<0.001), and intraabdominal-fat area (P=0.002) and with significant decreases in sexual desire (P<0.001) and erectile function (P=0.022); these findings provide additional evidence of an independent effect of estradiol on these measures."

And this was a media article talking about the study:
Male menopause? Estrogen, not just testosterone, affects body fat, sex drive, study finds

thank you.

Remember as Haidut said recently that these drugs don't just inhibit one enzyme in one process, but have effects on many of them.

Also, these men were given goserelin acetate which may confound the effects. This is a very powerful drug with many poorly understood effects.

 

[Ableton]

All Supplements Are Estrogenic

I am dropping everything tbh, except for some aspirin as a temp booster

This explanation by @lampofred also goes in gbol direction

supplements (even "natural",), meds = temporary interventions

aspirin may be the exception

I suppose if this was raypeat mainstrain some people would go out of business (although I do not doubt their good intentions or anything).

It is what it is.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Dr. Peat has said vitamin E and salt are probably the safest supplements.

 

[Ableton]

So, gbolduev was right again with the whole contrarian endocrinology?

again?
What else?

 

[redsun]

All Supplements Are Estrogenic

I am dropping everything tbh, except for some aspirin as a temp booster

This explanation by @lampofred also goes in gbol direction

supplements (even "natural",), meds = temporary interventions

aspirin may be the exception

I suppose if this was raypeat mainstrain some people would go out of business (although I do not doubt their good intentions or anything).

It is what it is.

You should read up on gbolduev's what he thinks of aspirin. I believe you can find them here under gbolduev as well as hackstasis user "helen".

 

[Ableton]

You should read up on gbolduev's what he thinks of aspirin. I believe you can find them here under gbolduev as well as hackstasis user "helen".

yeah, the goal is undoubtedly to get healthy without using anything
the question is when the means justify the goal and when they do not
aspirin makes around a 0,3 Celsius difference in me

 

[Sospian]

One of the worst meds to take.
Will tank your e2 into oblivion
Transcrotal Testosterone will bring enough DHT to counter e2 effects if that's what you are after

My biggest worry for this is having to deal with a HPTA shutdown again.

 

[Estradiol]

My experiences with aromatase inhibitors are quite good. Both Letrozole and Exemestane made my estrogen symptoms go away. Although Letrozole gave me little joint paint.

Same as Proviron. Huge increase in sperm count and make my moods calm and good.

Didn't notice serious hair loss or receding. In fact when I quit AIs my scalp hair grows so slow.

 

[Sospian]

My experiences with aromatase inhibitors are quite good. Both Letrozole and Exemestane made my estrogen symptoms go away. Although Letrozole gave me little joint paint.

Same as Proviron. Huge increase in sperm count and make my moods calm and good.

Didn't notice serious hair loss or receding. In fact when I quit AIs my scalp hair grows so slow.

Did Proviron shut your T levels down? Can you talk a bit more about your experiences. Did you have a varicocele?

 

[Estradiol]

Did Proviron shut your T levels down? Can you talk a bit more about your experiences. Did you have a varicocele?

I have never had blood tests. I don't know about numbers but I didn't see any "shutdown"

I didn't have varicocele.

 

[rei]

thank you.

Remember as Haidut said recently that these drugs don't just inhibit one enzyme in one process, but have effects on many of them.

Also, these men were given goserelin acetate which may confound the effects. This is a very powerful drug with many poorly understood effects.

It's not only that, but one group were also given

anastrozole (to suppress the conversion of testosterone to estradiol).

In my opinion this study is about as junk as they can come. Not one but two different drugs are used in addition to testosterone and estrogen to try and find some differences. Absurd.

 

[TheBeard]

My biggest worry for this is having to deal with a HPTA shutdown again.

I've been on massive doses of transcrotal T for 9 months and last month did an experiment by quitting cold turkey for a month.
Just received my labs : no shutdown at all, my T levels are exactly the same as 9 months ago before starting

 

[laleto12]

I've been on massive doses of transcrotal T for 9 months and last month did an experiment by quitting cold turkey for a month.
Just received my labs : no shutdown at all, my T levels are exactly the same as 9 months ago before starting

Did you have any physical changes due to T supplement?

 

[Andman]

I've been on massive doses of transcrotal T for 9 months and last month did an experiment by quitting cold turkey for a month.
Just received my labs : no shutdown at all, my T levels are exactly the same as 9 months ago before starting

what about LH/FSH? testicle size? its almost too good to be true

 

[Goobz]

It's not only that, but one group were also given



In my opinion this study is about as junk as they can come. Not one but two different drugs are used in addition to testosterone and estrogen to try and find some differences. Absurd.

No. No one was given estrogen.

Yes. They were given anastrozole, because that was the whole point of the study - to separate the aromatase and non aromatase effects of testosterone.

You clearly didn't read the study, yet you're calling the conclusions absurd.

I know it's hard giving up on the "estrogen is bad" ideology, but it's my belief that we'll all be better off once we do.

 

[rei]

They don't separate anything since there is such a cocktail of drugs going on there is no real data to be gathered. Even studying only one variable at a time is hard to get right, this study is just absurd "science"

I guess you will be first in line to try the recently popularized estrogen pills for men :)

 

[Jing]

A recent study showed TRT vs TRT + AI, and the TRT + AI group had more visceral fat, worse bone health, poor l

No. No one was given estrogen.

Yes. They were given anastrozole, because that was the whole point of the study - to separate the aromatase and non aromatase effects of testosterone.

You clearly didn't read the study, yet you're calling the conclusions absurd.

I know it's hard giving up on the "estrogen is bad" ideology, but it's my belief that we'll all be better off once we do.

How much arimidex was used though?

 

[Jing]

I've been on massive doses of transcrotal T for 9 months and last month did an experiment by quitting cold turkey for a month.
Just received my labs : no shutdown at all, my T levels are exactly the same as 9 months ago before starting

What was your total testosterone level when on transcrotal t?