Another Way PUFAs May Make You "fatter."

[tankasnowgod]

So, I've been interested in the process of hydrogenation recently, and questioning the idea of whether Trans Fats are as bad as they've been made out to be. Basically, I'm getting less and less convinced that Trans Fats are really all that problematic.

However, doing some of this digging made me think more and more about PUFAs. It started when I was watching this video about hydrogenation-



The analogy at about 2:10 got me to thinking that the more unsaturated a fat is, the more volume it would take up at the same weight. We can see this in the real world, as the more unsaturated oils tend to be liquid at room temperature, while the more saturated oils tend to be solid (MCT oil being the exception, and more liquid due to the short carbon chain).

Personally, I've noticed that Trader Joe's Refined CO seems a bit denser than their Virgin, and the Hydrogenated CO is even denser still.

This video from Kahn Academy helped me visualize the various forms of fat even better-



So if unsaturated fats take up more volume outside the body, they should also take up more volume inside the body.

So one of the things we could be seeing as we get fatter is an increasing degree of unsaturation.

Even words like flabby, chubby, or tubby imply a softness that is undesirable.

So, this could be a double whammy, of sorts. PUFAs help to slow down your metabolism, making you gain weight, while also taking up more volume than more saturated fats, making you appear even fatter.

Thoughts?

 

[shepherdgirl]

Thanks for this. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "I'm not fat, I'm just fluffy."
Thinking that it makes sense that saturated fat would be more "structural" too - in hot climates plants and animals need a fat with some viscosity and density to it. But in cold climates pufa is too solid. I wonder if its fluffier structure would retain more body heat?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thanks for this. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "I'm not fat, I'm just fluffy."
Thinking that it makes sense that saturated fat would be more "structural" too - in hot climates plants and animals need a fat with some viscosity and density to it. But in cold climates pufa is too solid. I wonder if its fluffier structure would retain more body heat?

I would think the fluffier structure would tend to lose more heat. A screen lets more air through than a window.

Many plants and animals use more unsaturated fats particularly for the lower melting point. If cold water fish used mostly saturated fat, they wouldn't have any flexibility. I think the cold environment also protects against oxidation.

 

[lvysaur]

I would think the fluffier structure would tend to lose more heat. A screen lets more air through than a window.

Bad analogy, as fat is covered with skin anyway. Olive oil has lower thermal conductivity than butter anyway.

Local fat composition supports the cold climate solidification theory: visceral is the most saturated, followed by abdominal subcutaneous, and then gluteal/femoral subcutaneous. This is exactly in the order of decreasing access to body heat.

As for the saturated = more dense = less space, not really: Density of Cooking Oil - The Physics Factbook

After all, even animal fat floats on water (a liquid at room temp)

 

[shepherdgirl]

But in cold climates pufa is too solid.

Sorry, I meant saturated fat is too solid in the cold.

Since there is space between PUFA molecules, I was thinking that this space could act like down feathers or insulating foam or fur - pockets that retain heat. A down blanket is covered in 'skin' too. I don't know how that would translate to a human fat cell with a few pufa molecules though. And in the body there might not be 'dead' space - everything is moving, pulsing, etc. Actually it is probably way too simplistic to consider macro properties in molecules. For ex., couldn't the liquid fat molecules be moving around much more than a solid fat's molecules, which are supposed to be more bound in a structure? And therefore wouldn't the liquid transfer heat more quickly? So much for insulating dead space. And yet @Ivysaur you are saying that olive oil has lower thermal conductivity than butter. (Is this at room temperature?) Maybe it's because the molecules in liquid olive oil are further apart than those in solid butter.

 

[lvysaur]

Sorry, I meant saturated fat is too solid in the cold.

PUFA is remarkably flexible at cold temperatures. Pork fat in the fridge (from the legs) has a good deal of saturates, but is spreadable and immediately starts melting when taken out.

The molecules being further apart is one of the major reasons that solids get hot faster than liquids (think porcelain vs. water). But there's no major difference between fats in their heat conducting properties.

 

[jyb]

Sorry, I meant saturated fat is too solid in the cold.

MCT oil is liquid in the cold and yet purely saturated.

 

[jaa]

All fat in your body is liquid unless you're dead.

 

[shepherdgirl]

All fat in your body is liquid unless you're dead.

Yeah, if you're warm-blooded. But iiuc pufa are part of fat cells in warm bloodeds, so they are somewhat "bound", so perhaps their crooked shape could still require some accommodation space.

This from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4847252/

Molecules like palmitoleic acid (C16:1) and oleic acid (C18:1) are bent at the cis double bond, and the two chain parts form an angle of 133° [3–6]. This bend has important consequences for the structure and functionality of biological membranes. Saturated fatty acid chains can pack closely together, whereas unsaturated fatty acids prevent such close packing and produce flexible, fluid aggregates.

MCT oil is liquid in the cold and yet purely saturated.

True. But it's the exception.

 

[Kyle M]

There's more of a case to be made that excessive PUFA build up in tissues leads to water-protein interaction problems like cellulite and other abnormalities.

 

[shepherdgirl]

There's more of a case to be made that excessive PUFA build up in tissues leads to water-protein interaction problems like cellulite and other abnormalities.

Thanks @Kyle M - do you happen to have any references for this?

 

[Kyle M]

Thanks @Kyle M - do you happen to have any references for this?

No, I could look though. Just an idea based on the fact that unsaturated and saturated acyl chains interact differently with water.

 

[Drareg]

No, I could look though. Just an idea based on the fact that unsaturated and saturated acyl chains interact differently with water.

Is PUFA more soluble with water than saturated?

I was curious about this within the theory of Ling,Pollack etc

 

[Kyle M]

Is PUFA more soluble with water than saturated?

I was curious about this within the theory of Ling,Pollack etc

Yes, but when it comes to protein-structured water-fatty acids interactions it's harder to say.

 

[Drareg]

Yes, but when it comes to protein-structured water-fatty acids interactions it's harder to say.

This could imply saturated fatty acids are better at controlling the flow of water,shaping the water,this could help with coherent flow of electric current.
PUFA not as good as it becomes almost like an emulsion of sort.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

It's a moot point because excess fat inside fat cells is problematic regardless.

"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism."-RP

 

[tankasnowgod]

It's a moot point because excess fat inside fat cells is problematic regardless.

"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism."-RP

But isn't that part of the point? That the structure of PUFA itself could cause a buildup of fat inside fat cells?

 

[aguilaroja]

Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition

"The reason linseed oil and fish oil were used for making varnishes and paints was that they are "drying oils," reacting with oxygen to polymerize and harden. The physical and chemical propertiess of the oils are fairly well understood, and among the polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) the omega -3 fatty acids react most easily with oxygen. Heat, light, and moisture increase their spontaneous interactions with oxygen, and besides polymerizing, these oils produce a variety of reactive particles, including acrolein, which combine with other substances, such as cellular proteins and DNA, with highly toxic effects. At low temperatures and low oxygen concentrations these oils are not highly reactive. Fats that harden at low temperatures (as saturated fats do) wouldn't be convenient for organisms that live in a cool environment, and so organisms regulate the type of fat they synthesize according to the temperature of their tissues. The fact that certain types of polyunsaturated fatty acids function nicely in fish, worms, and insects, doesn't mean that they are ideal fats for mammals."

 

[shepherdgirl]

But isn't that part of the point? That the structure of PUFA itself could cause a buildup of fat inside fat cells?

Could someone please explain to me how the solubility and/or structure of pufa could cause a fat buildup in the fat cell? What does it mean to have too much fat in a fat cell? why is it a problem? Thanks.

 

[smith]

How can one stimulate femoral subcutaneous fat production without ingesting PUFA's?