theLaw

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
1,403
Thanks, seems its definitely a mixed bag and side effects consistent with severe endogenous depression does often occur.

True, although to play devil's advocate, many who are on DHT might have more positive effects that outweigh the bad.

Idealab's products really appear to be the safest bet for anyone interested in supplementation.
 

Dhair

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
880
Hope is important. There is an old spiritual saying, I can't remember from where, that goes like "If you knew the journey, you would never make it." I have found that an inner force of will that says "I will go and explore anywhere, nothing is off limits," is incredibly useful in all this. I have ended up in places that looking back I would never dream of going, and probably would have balked if I did not have somewhere else to turn, if other options were not exhausted. I am glad you are still alive!
I appreciate that. I think some combination of things will cure anyone. I just don't know If it is within our grasp at this point.
Thanks, seems its definitely a mixed bag and side effects consistent with severe endogenous depression does often occur.
What you are describing would be dose-dependent. You can get away with a surprisingly high dose of DHT without it being completely suppressive. It looks like mildly suppressive doses of DHT would probably cure MS and many other "incurable" degenerative neurological diseases. I think the only issue would be a possible risk of some organ enlargement, or at least I remember some discussion about that (@haidut?). Regardless, it warrants much more attention than it currently gets from the medical community. Unfortunately, it is difficult for the average person to get a hold of in a pure form.
 
Last edited:

Constatine

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2016
Messages
1,781
Any data on long-term effects of DHT supplementation? Does it improve health to the same extent that DHT inhibitors worsen health, or will the body simply shut down endogenous production and you end up with a null effect in the long run? Has anyone here done chronic DHT therapy?
Definitely positive if dosed correctly and if one has a high calorie and highly nutritious diet. I think it is especially important for people suffering from damaged intestinal barriers as is likely the case with MS, leaky gut syndrome, gut dysbiosis, and even Alzheimer's.
 

cyclops

Member
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
1,636
Definitely positive if dosed correctly and if one has a high calorie and highly nutritious diet. I think it is especially important for people suffering from damaged intestinal barriers as is likely the case with MS, leaky gut syndrome, gut dysbiosis, and even Alzheimer's.

What do you think a good general dose would be? If someone was using Haidut's product?
 

Constatine

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2016
Messages
1,781
What do you think a good general dose would be? If someone was using Haidut's product?
That really depends on the person. If one has low body fat and and low estrogen already the minimal dosage would be best. Maybe just 1mg every few days. If one eats a lot of calories and has some body fat than a much larger dose can be used. If one is underweight they should probably not use DHT at all unless they greatly increase their caloric intake on it.
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
5,027
Location
Portland, Oregon
"Sixty years ago, people with chronic fatigue were often said to suffer from "nervous breakdown,"
and advised to go to a sanitarium for a vacation, and to stop bothering the doctor. A change of activity, of place, of work, or of associates can sometimes be very therapeutic. Changing the diet
can have social and ideological overtones, and can be done more easily while on a vacation trip. But sometimes the problem can be solved simply by avoiding some vegetable materials and food
supplements, and/or by correcting hormonal problems, and/or by modifying the intestinal ecology." from Ray Peat Bean Syndrome
I've never read these comments, and I thought it odd Dr. Peat never went into details about beans. Thank you, Regina.

"Education can either activate or suppress mental energy. If it is mainly obedience training, it suppresses energy. If it creates social dislocations, it disturbs mental and emotional energy." - Raymond Peat, PhD in Intelligence and metabolism

I find that academia disturbs "mental and emotional energy," and for me, I need a thyroid supplement in addition to a whole plethora of "pro-thyroid, energetic" substances to overcome the stress.
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,763
You've expressed a very mature idea of happiness, and it's important to realize that complexity and suffering has a role in its interaction with other parts of a living organizational system. Diminished complexity prompts a "reclamation" of the self, but again, the purpose of suffering remains elusive. Maybe an unfavorable reflection on the journey births from depression itself, and a healthy state may similarly bring an optimistic view of novelty (including suffering.)

Happiness, or satisfaction, is tricky. I am starting to think that a state of satisfaction is actually not congruent with health. Perhaps momentary satisfaction, but dopamine is very much about moving towards something. Maybe you can be satisfied with what you are moving towards, but movement is definitely necessary.

I thought in my naivete that satisfaction and happiness were congruent with health, which was basically a state of not feeling a necessity to move. Kind of like this pseudo spiritual "everything is perfect as is, what does this moment lack?" I was wrong, and this is serotonin. This is the dark form of happiness that we call an antidote to depression from SSRIs: "I am content, now freeze!" I wonder if the stagnation in our culture comes from this emphasis on serotonin being what happiness and health are.

In reality, I am healthiest when dopamine is highest, which means I am a little impatient, on the verge of slight frustration, very focused, and moving towards a goal that I am getting whiffs of meaning from. Movement is life! I wish it not, but it is true! Nature has conspired to always have me on a trail, renewing the constant entropy, and while I love it, I am not happy about it.


I think this ties directly into Ray's most recent newsletter where he mentions "the future informs the present".

I haven't read it yet, getting through the second volume of gulag archipelago. But on my reading list
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
5,027
Location
Portland, Oregon
Happiness, or satisfaction, is tricky. I am starting to think that a state of satisfaction is actually not congruent with health. Perhaps momentary satisfaction, but dopamine is very much about moving towards something. Maybe you can be satisfied with what you are moving towards, but movement is definitely necessary.

I thought in my naivete that satisfaction and happiness were congruent with health, which was basically a state of not feeling a necessity to move. Kind of like this pseudo spiritual "everything is perfect as is, what does this moment lack?" I was wrong, and this is serotonin. This is the dark form of happiness that we call an antidote to depression from SSRIs: "I am content, now freeze!" I wonder if the stagnation in our culture comes from this emphasis on serotonin being what happiness and health are.

In reality, I am healthiest when dopamine is highest, which means I am a little impatient, on the verge of slight frustration, very focused, and moving towards a goal that I am getting whiffs of meaning from. Movement is life! I wish it not, but it is true! Nature has conspired to always have me on a trail, renewing the constant entropy, and while I love it, I am not happy about it.




I haven't read it yet, getting through the second volume of gulag archipelago. But on my reading list
I agree about movement. I think the day-night cycle can allow for satisfaction (at the end of the day), whereas in the morning, we will first recover, then "reorient" toward a particular goal, and after achieving the goal, relax with satisfaction (at least in a healthy state.) A healthy person certainly has a high degree of functionality.

You're a good writer, Tarmander. You should publish some collections of your thoughts. I too had the idea that "everything seems at peace" stems from contentment, but both contentment (rather than engagement) and empathy (as opposed to understanding) birth from the "harm-avoidant" pathology. The sense of timelessness and immersion in reality has little concern for self-reflection, and indeed any form of extensive introspection represents a kind of "mini-depression" (not to say that we can always be happy, but it would be preferred to sadness.)
 

nbznj

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Messages
287
@haidut

I was thinking about this the other day in regards to Crossift, where I distinctly remember :

1. Minimal focus on diet (other than macros) - they preach paleo, but very few actually appear to follow any strict diet

2. Maximum focus on explosive lifts providing quick muscle-building (although not necessarily healthy or safe)

Looking at Crossift athletes, they're all carrying around large amounts of muscle, which could help to keep estrogen low, and T high.

Certainly not the healthiest way to approach it, but it does force a type of physiology that might be protective against the stresses of the modern world, and is probably better than low-carb.:D


looking at crossfit athletes, I see large amounts of testosterone, trenbolone, turinabol, anavar, exemestane and the likes being used. Of course they aren't low carb, they could go up to a kilogram a day of glucose and that would be fine. That helps keeping androgens high and estrogen low.

I've been to a crossfit box once though, and yeah I've seen boxy explosive high aggression physiques which is interesting; I've also seen tomato faces with acne balding and high blood pressure.

All sports that involve heavy lifting are a disaster more often than not. And I've been trying to be a competitive powerlifter on steroids. I stopped real quick when I saw how my body was reacting. I'm not reckless. Most lifters are.
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,763
I agree about movement. I think the day-night cycle can allow for satisfaction (at the end of the day), whereas in the morning, we will first recover, then "reorient" toward a particular goal, and after achieving the goal, relax with satisfaction (at least in a healthy state.) A healthy person certainly has a high degree of functionality.

You're a good writer, Tarmander. You should publish some collections of your thoughts. I too had the idea that "everything seems at peace" stems from contentment, but both contentment (rather than engagement) and empathy (as opposed to understanding) birth from the "harm-avoidant" pathology. The sense of timelessness and immersion in reality has little concern for self-reflection, and indeed any form of extensive introspection represents a kind of "mini-depression" (not to say that we can always be happy, but it would be preferred to sadness.)
Thanks man. I appreciate the compliment. I have tried to write some stuff but my muse seems only to come on RPF at the moment. Maybe it is the environment ha.
 

jitsmonkey

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
729
I've never read these comments, and I thought it odd Dr. Peat never went into details about beans. Thank you, Regina.

"Education can either activate or suppress mental energy. If it is mainly obedience training, it suppresses energy. If it creates social dislocations, it disturbs mental and emotional energy." - Raymond Peat, PhD in Intelligence and metabolism

I find that academia disturbs "mental and emotional energy," and for me, I need a thyroid supplement in addition to a whole plethora of "pro-thyroid, energetic" substances to overcome the stress.


Academia is DESIGNED to do those things.
 

Obi-wan

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
1,120
Hello All, I have been posting on various threads. I have advanced prostate cancer that has spread to my ribs and shoulders. I started wasting away last November and was put on Firmagon. My PSA went from 12,000 down to 40. Read Ray Peat and this forum and changed many things. PSA started to rise again in June of this year. I got off the Androgen Depravation Therapy (Firmagon) and did a lot of Progesterone for about 2 months. Unfortunately the PSA went back up to 13,000 (no wasting this time) and had to go back on Fermagon plus an AR blocker called Xtandi. Latest PSA is 150. Had some great conversations with @Travis and @Koveras and others on the Panquinone thread. That darn @haidut told us to move our conversation :blush: but he is still a cool dude in my book. Looks like there is a lot more going on with Prostate Cancer than meets the eye. We got into details on Xtandi and PPAR's. My thoughts, Testosterone is a pool made by LH and can be very dangerous if converted to estrogen via aromatase made by FSH. Androgen Receptors (if we believe in receptors) will allow converting androgens probably more so than non converting androgens into the damaged cell which we have no natural control of. An unoccupied androgen receptor can be just as dangerous (@Koveras ). AR's also have PPAR ligands that metabolize fats (Prostaglandins) into the cell (@Travis). I made the mistake a couple of times in thinking Chicken bone broth soup would be good to consume (PUFA). NOT! As Ray Peat mentioned Testosterone can be just as dangerous as Estrogen when used for conversion on inflamed or damaged cells. So, trying to stay Peaty but unfortunately need the drugs and hope for cell apoptosis. By the way, love this forum family!
 

Koveras

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
720
Hello All, I have been posting on various threads. I have advanced prostate cancer that has spread to my ribs and shoulders. I started wasting away last November and was put on Firmagon. My PSA went from 12,000 down to 40. Read Ray Peat and this forum and changed many things. PSA started to rise again in June of this year. I got off the Androgen Depravation Therapy (Firmagon) and did a lot of Progesterone for about 2 months. Unfortunately the PSA went back up to 13,000 (no wasting this time) and had to go back on Fermagon plus an AR blocker called Xtandi. Latest PSA is 150. Had some great conversations with @Travis and @Koveras and others on the Panquinone thread. That darn @haidut told us to move our conversation :blush: but he is still a cool dude in my book. Looks like there is a lot more going on with Prostate Cancer than meets the eye. We got into details on Xtandi and PPAR's. My thoughts, Testosterone is a pool made by LH and can be very dangerous if converted to estrogen via aromatase made by FSH. Androgen Receptors (if we believe in receptors) will allow converting androgens probably more so than non converting androgens into the damaged cell which we have no natural control of. An unoccupied androgen receptor can be just as dangerous (@Koveras ). AR's also have PPAR ligands that metabolize fats (Prostaglandins) into the cell (@Travis). I made the mistake a couple of times in thinking Chicken bone broth soup would be good to consume (PUFA). NOT! As Ray Peat mentioned Testosterone can be just as dangerous as Estrogen when used for conversion on inflamed or damaged cells. So, trying to stay Peaty but unfortunately need the drugs and hope for cell apoptosis. By the way, love this forum family!

Clin Cancer Res. 2017 Nov 20. pii: clincanres.0989.2017. doi: 10.1158/1078-0432.CCR-17-0989. [Epub ahead of print]
The glucocorticoid receptor is a key player for prostate cancer cell survival and a target for improved anti-androgen therapy.
Puhr M1, Hoefer J2, Eigentler A3, Ploner C4, Handle F2, Schaefer G5, Kroon J6, Leo A3, Heidegger IM7, Eder IE8, Culig Z2, van der Pluijm G9, Klocker H3.
PURPOSE:
The major obstacle in the management of advanced prostate cancer (PCa) is the occurrence of resistance to endocrine-therapy. Although the androgen receptor (AR) has been linked to therapy failure, the underlying escape mechanisms have not been fully clarified. Being closely related to the AR, the glucocorticoid receptor (GR) has been suggested to play a role in enzalutamide and docetaxel resistance. Given that glucocorticoids are frequently applied to PCa patients, it is essential to unravel the exact role of the GR in PCa progression.
EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN:
Assessment of GR expression and functional significance in tissues from 177 PCa patients, including 14 lymph-node metastases, as well as in several human PCa models including androgen-dependent, androgen-independent, and long-term anti-androgen-treated cell lines.
RESULTS:
While GR expression is reduced in primary PCa tissue, it is restored in metastatic lesions. Relapse patients with high GR experience shortened progression-free survival. GR is significantly increased upon long-term abiraterone or enzalutamide treatment in the majority of preclinical models, thus identifying GR upregulation as an underlying mechanism for cells to bypass AR-blockade. Importantly, GR inhibition by RNA-interference or chemical blockade results in impaired proliferation and 3D-spheroid formation in all tested cell lines.
CONCLUSIONS:
Upregulation seems to be a common mechanism during anti-androgen treatment and supports the notion that targeting the GR pathway combined with anti-androgen medication may further improve PCa therapy.
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
Happiness, or satisfaction, is tricky. I am starting to think that a state of satisfaction is actually not congruent with health. Perhaps momentary satisfaction, but dopamine is very much about moving towards something. Maybe you can be satisfied with what you are moving towards, but movement is definitely necessary.

I thought in my naivete that satisfaction and happiness were congruent with health, which was basically a state of not feeling a necessity to move. Kind of like this pseudo spiritual "everything is perfect as is, what does this moment lack?" I was wrong, and this is serotonin. This is the dark form of happiness that we call an antidote to depression from SSRIs: "I am content, now freeze!" I wonder if the stagnation in our culture comes from this emphasis on serotonin being what happiness and health are.

In reality, I am healthiest when dopamine is highest, which means I am a little impatient, on the verge of slight frustration, very focused, and moving towards a goal that I am getting whiffs of meaning from. Movement is life! I wish it not, but it is true! Nature has conspired to always have me on a trail, renewing the constant entropy, and while I love it, I am not happy about it.




I haven't read it yet, getting through the second volume of gulag archipelago. But on my reading list
Intelligent People More Likely To Suffer From Mental Illness
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom