An Almost Fat Free, Starch Free Experiment

[SQu]

That said, it all feels so much better with a bit of a dopamine hit: some cheese and a couple squares of dark chocolate pre-bed. Perfect sleep = better days.

So agree about dopamine, have really benefited from efforts to raise it, tough when it's low

I’m experimenting with MCT oil right now. Just ordered some.

MCT oil is helpful, I have tried topically and it's possibly worth it but I need to find a way to get it to absorb quicker. Very interested in this and stearic acid right now but so far haven't helped with weight loss, not when eaten anyway, not for me anyway. Transdermally? Very very interested.

Thanks for the detailed update! I'm glad you are feeling much better. It's so true when you said healing takes time.

Thanks Blossom! So much time! But worth it. And... What alternative?

Could you post your bread recipe?

Easy No Knead Bread Recipe

 

[SQu]

have been doing it for 2.5 months quite comfortably, these symptoms are absent or transient, and 5.2kg lost.

A month later and I'm down 10kg total. Everything seems within reach now. And the discomfort of moving my body around has lifted. Stumbled across a great exercise/outdoors weight loss aid - volunteering for wildlife rescue. It's constant but not difficult movement, time outdoors, meaningful, and good for the soul too.

Still have cravings for intense sweetness fairly often, not as often as before, and if I don't satisfy the craving I will gain weight whereas if I do, I may lose weight, stay the same, or put on a little, not enough to lose ground. Still want nougat (I make it now), jelly, sometimes condensed milk, glace cherries. Concentrated sugar.

No cravings lately.

Without some of those things I'll get the odd twinge in the midriff (gall bladder I suspect) and very occasionally a feeling like a fist much lower down I think appendix area. I take this very seriously as my sister just h

Had a gall bladder spell, (I think) ...weak, nauseous, headache, gurgling gut, undigested food. Added digestive enzymes and all fine again.

Fat: aiming for less than 10% calories, less than 20g.
Calories: I have cut them gradually to about 1600 -

Fat a bit higher since I added stearic acid in the form of ginger biscuits, but I keep it below 20%, protein about the same.
Calories a bit less, average 1540. Watching metabolism, seems fine so far but don't ever plan to go much lower.

Lunch, 2 slices homemade bread with tomato, maybe a bit of low fat cheese (to begin with I made sure to add a bit of fat to each meal to stop blood sugar swings but don't seem to need it so much anymore);

Less of the salad and bread at the moment mostly because of the digestion, and the biscuits.

My calorie counter doesn't work out the fats so nicely, but I keep fat as low as possible except for daily egg and stearic acid biscuits, so I think my SFA/pufa ratio has to be pretty good. Improvement in almost everything as a result! I'm also experimenting with recipes using stearic acid and will post sometime. Short story: doesn't work in bread, does work in biscuits.

 

[Such_Saturation]

A summary of this thread: failed low fat diet attempts 3- 4 years ago; and an update because it's going much better now. So this thread has an update and may be helpful to others. Because things are very different now and it's mostly that healing takes time and so does depleting pufa.

Problems with low fat were:

Adding in minerals helped a lot but I still couldn't sustain this diet whereas now I have been doing it for 2.5 months quite comfortably, these symptoms are absent or transient, and 5.2kg lost.



I felt this way often. Almost never anymore.



I think now, gut related.



I need concentrated sugar too, too much fruit juice will water it down too much and send me looking for nougat.



No sense of bloat, much less breathless. Supplements: T3 (Tyronene for the past couple of weeks), progesterone, B1, B3, D, K, E, P5P, Mg Chloride, Taurine, 2mg ciproheptadine, occasional clonidine at bedtime if mind racing. Weekly liver, oysters from time to time.



Still have cravings for intense sweetness fairly often, not as often as before, and if I don't satisfy the craving I will gain weight whereas if I do, I may lose weight, stay the same, or put on a little, not enough to lose ground. Still want nougat (I make it now), jelly, sometimes condensed milk, glace cherries. Concentrated sugar.



I have a fizzy bicarb drink with ice when particularly hot and it's the best most satisfying way to quench thirst in the heat.



Can tolerate starch better. I have my own 24 hour fermented bread (any other kind is a recipe for gas and cramps),well cooked potato - mainly just those. Pasta puts weight on and so does rice.


All of these much better. Chronic constipation recently took a turn for the better, didn't need cascara. Improvements to long standing things like this come and go like the tide coming in until it settles at a new better level, and when I cut calories I wasn't surprised that I needed cascara again.

So digestion is my focus and I make sure to support it with coffee in the morning, carrot salad every afternoon, taurine after dinner and cascara before bed. I pay attention to any kind of gut pains and this protocol keeps me feeling well. I hesitate to mess with anything that might affect the gut. Without some of those things I'll get the odd twinge in the midriff (gall bladder I suspect) and very occasionally a feeling like a fist much lower down I think appendix area. I take this very seriously as my sister just had her appendix removed and my mom did too at around the same age.



Not anymore, so I can carry on for the long time it is going to take me to lose the weight gently and sustainably and without health costs.


Can't believe how much I used to suffer, no wonder my attempts failed. I really felt so awful so often.
Don't need to add minerals beyond what's already in my diet and supplement list.
Fat: aiming for less than 10% calories, less than 20g.
Calories: I have cut them gradually to about 1600 - 1700 .



Not taking temps but checking fingertips stay warm.





Not happening anymore and if it did I'd stop.



Sleeping much better. Take Mgchloride, taurine after dinner, and 2 mg cypro heptadine plus sometimes a home-made version of oxidal. Clonidine if mind races, used to use this too often but it's occasional now.



Can't believe how unwell I felt at a time I thought I was already somewhat improved. So previously I had been even worse and still dieted then. Can't believe I even attempted weight loss so much too early on. No surprise it didn't work. But hindsight is perfect, right? At the time I thought I'd come a long way and the sad thing is, I had, so just how bad were things before? I'm horrified.



I had so many. What finally scared me off dieting and onto finding Peat was bad patches and migraines that were merging into a permanent state. And then? What would have been next?



Yes ... but 3 more years later.

Now I get why people think dieting is just discipline. Because if you don't feel so awful mentally and physically it's not hard to do this. It's effort in the sense of counting calories, weighing stuff, feeling a bit empty sometimes. But that's easy compared with battling with how awful you feel and getting poor results after all that.

Diet: varies, but this is typical: 1 egg, 1 slice homemade bread for breakfast. 2 coffees with two sugars and fat free milk. Lunch, 2 slices homemade bread with tomato, maybe a bit of low fat cheese (to begin with I made sure to add a bit of fat to each meal to stop blood sugar swings but don't seem to need it so much anymore); carrot salad with olive oil. Supper will be small piece of lean meat with lots of cooked veg, milk at bedside for night time wake ups (still have about 2 a night of those)

Thanks for reading if you got all the way through and maybe this will help someone. I'll update shortly (and shorter).

Great update! Props for keeping it up.

 

[SQu]

A month later and I'm down 10kg total. Everything seems within reach now. And the discomfort of moving my body around has lifted

End of 2018, and of my 5th year on this great forum still learning and benefiting from some great and generous minds, principally Ray Peat's. And 5 months of fat loss, total of 13kgs in this period, and about 5 before that.

No cravings lately.

Still very comfortable, happily including digestion, gall bladder. Some minor cravings, this time for halva, for the usual reason of concentrated sugar, in spite of enough sugar in the diet, suggesting to me that the cells still are not fully getting it. Pity about the pufas in halva... Some of my other favourite concentrated sugar sources are too high in acid to really be workable, giving me temporary tooth sensitivity especially when I'm not supplementing K2.

Had a gall bladder spell, (I think) ...weak, nauseous, headache, gurgling gut, undigested food. Added digestive enzymes and all fine again.

Very comfortable again.

Fat a bit higher since I added stearic acid in the form of ginger biscuits, but I keep it below 20%, protein about the same.
Calories a bit less, average 1540. Watching metabolism, seems fine so far but don't ever plan to go much lower

Cals about 16-1700.

Great update! Props for keeping it up.

Thank you! It is hard to describe just how good it is to move easier and more confidently. And to want to move more, walk, etc.

One more thing: I think the real key to all improvement and weight loss has been pufa depletion.

 

[aquaman]

So @SQu you're doing a low calorie, bread/cheese/meat diet with no fruits? How is this RP style eating?

 

[SQu]

Low calorie, yes, without sacrificing signs of improved metabolism.
Bread/cheese/meat? Usually 1 slice of bread. 20-30g cheese is about what I was having when I first updated. Seldom since then because I'm having more fruit and yoghurt. Meat - not every day. It's too hot.

I'm eating a lot of fruit. Some homemade 20+hour fermented dough bread and well cooked potato because I don't feel well without some of the starches that agree well with me. I'm eating very little fat and what I do is minimize pufa and aim for as high a percentage of the fat to be saturated as possible. I usually drink a litre of low fat /fat free milk, eat an egg a day, fat free yoghurt often, and aim keep protein to about 15-20% of calories, fat below 20%. It's too hot for stews and soups so I'm not getting much gelatin right now. I drink several cups of coffee with milk and sugar.

I would not call this a bread/cheese/meat diet, and I would not call it low calorie without specifying that I am not cutting calories at the price of metabolism. That is just misleading.

I have adapted Peat's recommendations to suit my own context, paying attention to how I feel, adjusting accordingly.

So, how is this not RP style eating?

 

[SQu]

Two months later, seven months of fat loss, and down 17kgs. Average about 2.5kgs a month. a bit slower because:
1. Christmas and a 2 week trip during which I didn't count calories, didn't stick entirely to the programme. Gained 700gs which I thought was pretty good in the circumstances, which were stressful. So weight loss has slowed somewhat but not reversed significantly.
2. Since then, hungrier and some sugar cravings. Suspecting subtle gall bladder issues again. Stress has been through the roof at times, suspect blood sugar affected, and also have not had a period for about 4 months, so, estrogen. Have been taking one or a couple of teaspoons of powdered stearic acid daily to a) give brief t3-like effect; b) provide a C12+ fat for gall bladder stimulation and c) raise the ratio of SFA:PUFA. I don't count the stearic acid calories because they don't seem to count in terms of weight loss the way other fats do. Discovered yet again that a subtle diminishment in stressed feelings by taking more sugar usually makes weight drop whereas sticking to one's self-imposed rules and not feeling great stops weight loss entirely. The trick as always is to have the thing that feels like it relieves the stress, when needed, but not more than that, or less. If I could reliably do that it would be a breakthrough.
3. Not sticking as closely to programme or calorie counting. But not far out either.
I'm taking 50mg doxycycline 3x a week and feel a definite mood lift next morning.
I continue to get physically stronger, suppler, and more active. I take the Katy Bowman approach and integrate movement into daily life, that kind of thing. I feel like a different person, getting my life back!
Still have quite a long way to go but I can live with this and I'm getting results so I'm confident of being back at a good weight for me well before the end of the year, in other words, a year and a bit after starting.

 

[Rafe]

Discovered yet again that a subtle diminishment in stressed feelings by taking more sugar usually makes weight drop whereas sticking to one's self-imposed rules and not feeling great stops weight loss entirely. The trick as always is to have the thing that feels like it relieves the stress, when needed, but not more than that, or less. If I could reliably do that it would be a breakthrough.

This. It perfectly (beautiful way of putting that) captures my recent experience too. I found I had lost 20 lbs almost before I noticed it. But it was over 6 months & for weeks (& now about 3 months) I haven’t lost any more fat weight. It’s the end of winter where I am & I probably have about 20 more I’d like to lose.

But it involves no will power, feels completely easy & I just continue to eat peaty as I like. Two quarts of 1% milk & maybe 24 oz of oj most days are completely routine now (& other foods). And lots of sugar when I feel the need. I’m not super low fat but starch doesn’t do me much good.

I also have that urge for a very dense sugar source at times. It’s a specific sensation to me. I haven’t found my best solution yet, still experimenting. I found I lost weight while eating copious amounts of sugar, but not that eating the sugar alone caused it. It was like a superfood if that makes any sense. I ate less starch while losing.

But also, I like what you are saying because it demonstrates that thing said a lot: context makes the meaning. Because the same routines at the front end don’t work the same way (like lower calories or fat).

To just do all the things is deceptive. I think you’re right that PUFA depletion makes most of the difference. That started for me at about 3.5 yrs.

The best: it confirms for me that the principles are completely right. It’s such a big thing to wonder if it’s going to work & if you will get your shape back. And also, that no one believes you until it happens. Big happy days to you!

It’s so great to hear about your success! Are you still doing wildlife rescue? How was it?

 

[SQu]

I found I had lost 20 lbs almost before I noticed it. But it was over 6 months & for weeks (& now about 3 months) I haven’t lost any more fat weight. It’s the end of winter where I am & I probably have about 20 more I’d like to lose.

But it involves no will power, feels completely easy & I just continue to eat peaty as I like. T

I would prefer to do it that way because it would be the least stress on the body, but I wasn't finding that zone, and I have a lot more than you to lose. Even so as a good consolation prize, I've been very encouraged by the ease of it, and the speed of it. I thought it would take years but it may take a year and a few more months.

I also have that urge for a very dense sugar source at times. It’s a specific sensation to me

It is very specific I agree. It's like another animal entirely to the more diluted sugars of juice, fruit, even sugared milk. These don't fill that gap. But jam and preserves out of the jar do! So would fudge if I wasn't avoiding fat. I think sugar burning is not entirely switched back on yet.

It’s such a big thing to wonder if it’s going to work & if you will get your shape back. And also, that no one believes you until it happens

Absolutely. There were some dark times. Which I couldn't really share. Especially seeing as it was self inflicted. I see it as a series of one way doors you go through by following misguided advice, not knowing you can't find your way back. I wasn't even quite sure I'd ever make it back, not being aware of many Peaty role models for this kind of weight loss, at this age. Those I knew of, eg @thebigpeatowski, I tried their approach but didn't get similar results until years later.

It’s so great to hear about your success! Are you still doing wildlife rescue?

Yes! Best fitness and outdoor activity I didn't even sign up for - my intention was to help wildlife not myself but what an unexpected bonus. At the moment we are helping lesser flamingo chicks who need saving because of drought. One day they'll look like this! But what a way to focus on something bigger than your own issues.

BirdLife South Africa