Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

Dean

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Messages
793
Should you use instantized BCAA's or not?

:edit: (to add):

So, that would be about 30 g of the amino acid mix to equate to the 80 grams of protein. I assume you would only include the BCAA's, phenylalanine, lysine, and threonine in needing to add up to 30 g? You wouldn't count the non-essentials (glycine, taurine, beta alanine) as part of the 30.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
haidut I've seen protocols where they add 5G of taurine daily to this type of mix. any thoughts on the downside of such dosage?

I don't see any downside except that most studies found no consistent benefit in going over 2g-3g taurine daily. The only exception was severe hypertension where 15g a day for 4 weeks reversed it. Also, 5g and more will probably make you very sleepy. Taurine is a GABA agonist/mimetic.
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
5,027
Location
Portland, Oregon
I made a thread on this, but I'll post here.

Haidut, do you have any recommended dosages for the non-conventional amino acids?

- Hydroxyproline (I'm assuming this covers proline as well)
- Serine
- Threonine
- Alanine (you say 5 g per day of beta-alanine as an ergogenic aid, and would this also act in a sufficiently similar way to l-alanine?)

Particularly, anything on serine and threonine is interesting.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
I made a thread on this, but I'll post here.

Haidut, do you have any recommended dosages for the non-conventional amino acids?

- Hydroxyproline (I'm assuming this covers proline as well)
- Serine
- Threonine
- Alanine (you say 5 g per day of beta-alanine as an ergogenic aid, and would this also act in a sufficiently similar way to l-alanine?)

Particularly, anything on serine and threonine is interesting.

No, I don't have much in terms of recommendations on these except to keep it simple and take as much as the the other essential aminos. The thread is about essential aminos and adding the rest is optional. Gelatin you can eat pretty much as mush as you want, taurine is probably best at <3g daily, and beta alanine in about the same dose. The goal is not to turn this into a perfect supplement but to recover digestion so people can start eating normal protein again. In the long run, getting most of the protein from eggs and casein/cheese, and adding some gelatin is probably optimal.
 

Parsifal

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
1,081
Why do people here think that free amino acid supplementation is bad? The meat protein that with digest is broken down in fre amino acids and the aa in fruits are free, no?

What is the problem if you take an amino acid like glycine far from a protein meal?
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Why do people here think that free amino acid supplementation is bad? The meat protein that with digest is broken down in fre amino acids and the aa in fruits are free, no?

What is the problem if you take an amino acid like glycine far from a protein meal?

I personally don't think isolated amino acids are bad. To me it's an issue with purity and if pure ones are available then it is a valid approach for SOME people to improve their health.
 

Parsifal

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
1,081
I personally don't think isolated amino acids are bad. To me it's an issue with purity and if pure ones are available then it is a valid approach for SOME people to improve their health.

Would you have advices to know the purity of a product?
 

Lonnie

Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2015
Messages
7
Haidut, could you recommend a brand of BCAA? I was looking on Amazon and some products state a 2:1:1 ratio (Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine) and some state a ratio of 3:1:2. Thanks!
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Would you have advices to know the purity of a product?

Pure amino acids dissolve completely in warm water. So, opening a few capsules and dumping into a glass of hot water should show if there are any additives. This won't tell you about minuscule amounts of toxic substances, but most products sold in the USA undergo some safety testing for toxic additives. If you buy USP-grade amino acids the product will probably be relatively pure.
Ironically, we live in a world where ensuring the purity/safety of a dietary supplement is a easier than ensuring the purity of food. Food is definitely treated as "anything goes as long as it does not kill within 24 hours" these days.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Haidut, could you recommend a brand of BCAA? I was looking on Amazon and some products state a 2:1:1 ratio (Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine) and some state a ratio of 3:1:2. Thanks!

I don't think the ratios of BCAA matter much, but the 2:1:1 ratio has been studied the most. VitaminShoppe and Nutrabio have some products that at least based on the label are relatively pure. That being said, I do not endorse any product so please do your own research.
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
5,027
Location
Portland, Oregon
L-Isoleucine: 1,483mg
L-Leucine: 1,964mg
L-Valine: 1,657mg
L-Lysine: 1,111mg
L-Methionine: 1,429mg
L-Phenylalanine: 699mg
L-Threonine: 1,289mg
L-Tryptophan: 368mg
_______________________
TOTAL: 10,000mg (10g)


Keeping this in mind, from the above listed aminos one only needs to supplement with leucine, valine, isoleucine, phenylalanine, lysine, and threonine.
So, would you say that L-tyrosine and L-phenylalanine are interchangeable, or would you prefer the latter as it can fill the role of tyrosine as needed?

On another note, do you think that there are any differences in nutrient mixtures versus protein-bound nutrients? For example, if I have a gallon of milk and put 2 mg of copper in that, do know of any difference in mineral utilization than if I put 2 mg of copper in an amino acid solution, as listed above? Particularly, I mean with regards to choline, molybdenum, vanadium, chromium, phosphorous, iodine, and iron, (the "harmful" nutrients).
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
So, would you say that L-tyrosine and L-phenylalanine are interchangeable, or would you prefer the latter as it can fill the role of tyrosine as needed?

On another note, do you think that there are any differences in nutrient mixtures versus protein-bound nutrients? For example, if I have a gallon of milk and put 2 mg of copper in that, do know of any difference in mineral utilization than if I put 2 mg of copper in an amino acid solution, as listed above? Particularly, I mean with regards to choline, molybdenum, vanadium, chromium, phosphorous, iodine, and iron, (the "harmful" nutrients).

I personally prefer phenylalanine as it can also directly inhibit the TPH enzyme even though not as strongly as the synthetic pCPA can. As far as the difference in mineral utilization - that is a tough one. Both milk and free amino acids are strong chelators of metals. Milk has lactoferrin, which can bind copper and prevent its absorption and it also has the amino acids. But the free amino acids can bind copper much earlier, as soon as they are ingested. So, not sure what would be more effective at chelating but if I had to guess I would probably pick the free amino acid mixture. The initial improvement in health of cancer patients on calorie restriction is likely due to the elevated plasma amino acids chelating iron, cadmium, nickel and cobalt from the patients' bodies. Unfortunately, the loss of protein outweighs in the long run the chelation benefit.
Malic acid in apple juice is also a decent metal chelator, but the best ones are succinic and fulvic acids.
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
5,027
Location
Portland, Oregon
I personally prefer phenylalanine as it can also directly inhibit the TPH enzyme even though not as strongly as the synthetic pCPA can. As far as the difference in mineral utilization - that is a tough one. Both milk and free amino acids are strong chelators of metals. Milk has lactoferrin, which can bind copper and prevent its absorption and it also has the amino acids. But the free amino acids can bind copper much earlier, as soon as they are ingested. So, not sure what would be more effective at chelating but if I had to guess I would probably pick the free amino acid mixture. The initial improvement in health of cancer patients on calorie restriction is likely due to the elevated plasma amino acids chelating iron, cadmium, nickel and cobalt from the patients' bodies. Unfortunately, the loss of protein outweighs in the long run the chelation benefit.
Malic acid in apple juice is also a decent metal chelator, but the best ones are succinic and fulvic acids.
Some great information. I was speaking of introducing the nutrients into the body, rather than chelating them and removing them from tissues, although the mechanism might apply either way.

I'm thinking of a PUFA free diet, ala the George Burr experiment. Peat says that his "mineral mixture lacked zinc, copper, manganese, molybdenum, and selenium." Source: Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

PUFA depletion occurs if PUFA is under 7.7 g and total fat is under 15% oral fat (assuming a 2000 calorie diet to be conservative) as per the experiment you cited.

Beyond that, skim milk has about 0.1-0.2 g PUFA per gallon, which is reasonable; orange juice much higher; and dates are one of the lowest fruits for PUFA.

Anyway, I'm thinking that milk and white sugar with supplemental vitamin C, along with other minerals of course, suffices in the meantime; however, maybe a PUFA-free diet is possible. Maybe the lipid peroxidation of PUFA negatively outweighs the benefits of bioflavonoids from oranges and other nutrients.

If this is the case, then I can only think of two options: either chemically separate the miniscule amount of fats from skim milk and replace the fat content with fully hydrogenated oils of some kind, say coconut oil, or use an amino acid mixture and sucrose solution (like Mr. Burr), and supplement vitamins and minerals in reasonable quantities.

Again, there's the question: Do the metabolic disadvantages of added choline, iron with vitamin C, chromium, and phosphorous outweigh the minute advantage of avoiding that 0.1 g PUFA on a daily basis. I'd appreciate any thoughts you have on the matter.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Some great information. I was speaking of introducing the nutrients into the body, rather than chelating them and removing them from tissues, although the mechanism might apply either way.

I'm thinking of a PUFA free diet, ala the George Burr experiment. Peat says that his "mineral mixture lacked zinc, copper, manganese, molybdenum, and selenium." Source: Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

PUFA depletion occurs if PUFA is under 7.7 g and total fat is under 15% oral fat (assuming a 2000 calorie diet to be conservative) as per the experiment you cited.

Beyond that, skim milk has about 0.1-0.2 g PUFA per gallon, which is reasonable; orange juice much higher; and dates are one of the lowest fruits for PUFA.

Anyway, I'm thinking that milk and white sugar with supplemental vitamin C, along with other minerals of course, suffices in the meantime; however, maybe a PUFA-free diet is possible. Maybe the lipid peroxidation of PUFA negatively outweighs the benefits of bioflavonoids from oranges and other nutrients.

If this is the case, then I can only think of two options: either chemically separate the miniscule amount of fats from skim milk and replace the fat content with fully hydrogenated oils of some kind, say coconut oil, or use an amino acid mixture and sucrose solution (like Mr. Burr), and supplement vitamins and minerals in reasonable quantities.

Again, there's the question: Do the metabolic disadvantages of added choline, iron with vitamin C, chromium, and phosphorous outweigh the minute advantage of avoiding that 0.1 g PUFA on a daily basis. I'd appreciate any thoughts you have on the matter.

Not that I recommend it, but you can decrease fat absorption with things like charcoal and orlistat. The latter drug is also a fatty acid synthase inhibitor (FAS) so it should prevent fat being synthesized from sugar. So, you can drink even 2% milk and it would probably be equivalent to drinking 0.5% milk.
As far as choline, I think the only safe source of eggs. And most of the benefits are not from the choline but the carrier role it plays for bringing saturated fats into the mitochondria. Hence the benefits from eating saturated phosphatidylcholine (PC) like DPPC.
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
5,027
Location
Portland, Oregon
Not that I recommend it, but you can decrease fat absorption with things like charcoal and orlistat. The latter drug is also a fatty acid synthase inhibitor (FAS) so it should prevent fat being synthesized from sugar. So, you can drink even 2% milk and it would probably be equivalent to drinking 0.5% milk.
As far as choline, I think the only safe source of eggs. And most of the benefits are not from the choline but the carrier role it plays for bringing saturated fats into the mitochondria. Hence the benefits from eating saturated phosphatidylcholine (PC) like DPPC.
Thanks for the reply, haidut. Charcoal seems interesting, but orlistat seems to interfere with A, D, E, K absorption, and I'd expect the same with charcoal. I guess skim milk is the best option at this point.

DPPC has been talked about lately though; you've noted it's expensive, which it is. I have no idea about DPPC, so I'll have to do some more research.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Thanks for the reply, haidut. Charcoal seems interesting, but orlistat seems to interfere with A, D, E, K absorption, and I'd expect the same with charcoal. I guess skim milk is the best option at this point.

DPPC has been talked about lately though; you've noted it's expensive, which it is. I have no idea about DPPC, so I'll have to do some more research.

I have a supplement in the works that will have fully hydrogenated PC, and some of it will be DPPC. If you find a cheap source by all means please post it here, but I did a lot of digging and that stuff is expensive as hell.
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
5,027
Location
Portland, Oregon
I have a supplement in the works that will have fully hydrogenated PC, and some of it will be DPPC. If you find a cheap source by all means please post it here, but I did a lot of digging and that stuff is expensive as hell.
Awesome. I'll definitely order a bottle.
 

thyrulian

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
114
I think this is best suited for people with really compromised digestion or very fatigued/hypothyroid. This approach is used in hospitals for people who cannot eat normal food or have compromised digestion. If food works for you then I'd stick to it. Otherwise you can get a cheaper product like this one and try a few doses to see how they affect you.
http://www.amazon.com/Solgar-Essential- ... B00020I9R4

The product includes methionine and histidine, which I think is not optimal, but you can use it to test if the amino acid approach helps you and if yes then can buy the aminos separately and do the cocktail I suggest.
Hey haidut, have you since found anything better than this, capsule-wise?
Do you think 2 caps twice a day would be effective enough?
Thank you.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Hey haidut, have you since found anything better than this, capsule-wise?
Do you think 2 caps twice a day would be effective enough?
Thank you.

AFAIK, there are no MAP products withouht tryptophan and histidine. So, if you want something better you'll have to buy the individual aminos yourself and supplement as needed. Unless your digestion is really compromised (like after surgery or not producing any stomach acid or pancreatic enzymes) I would use this only as a supplement, not main source of protein. The effectiveness depends on how much protein you are trying to replace, so 2 capsules is an arbitrary measure.
 

thyrulian

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
114
AFAIK, there are no MAP products withouht tryptophan and histidine. So, if you want something better you'll have to buy the individual aminos yourself and supplement as needed. Unless your digestion is really compromised (like after surgery or not producing any stomach acid or pancreatic enzymes) I would use this only as a supplement, not main source of protein. The effectiveness depends on how much protein you are trying to replace, so 2 capsules is an arbitrary measure.
Yes, of course, thanks again.

This is pretty nice, isn't it? Essential Aminos - 180 Capsules
Cheaper: Amazon.com: Pure Encapsulations - Essential Aminos 180's: Health & Personal Care

Look, ma, no tryptophands!
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

J
Replies
2
Views
3K
Back
Top Bottom